Exactly. Thank you. All facet wants to do (pretty much) is preach atheism, apparently.

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All I am trying to really say, facet, is that I am not willing to throw the baby away with the bathwater. It's like I got hurt in an abusive church, but I still consider myself a Christian.

I understand, and you know best always.

You are the best judge of where you are and you can indeed make the judgement of others, including me ! Although I (or others) may not tend to agree with on some of the things hehe, but that’s the point isn’t it? It’s judgement for you to help you, not for me to need to care too much about.

Are you a former member of ISKCON, SOIF, or any related group, facet? You've never made that clear.

Correct I do not make any of these things clear, it is my preference not to share important personal information with strangers.

Stranger danger !!! Heheee.

Then why are you here? Just to argue and preach atheism?

The Wirlwind, I have been out of this conversation for a while. You say that you are trying to explain the mystical forces that drove you to K Consciousness.
I am not sure I read one single exemple of supernatural events on your journey other than you were an atheist before you were introduced to the maha mantra...
I have no doubts that you have your own fringe experiences.
So yes I feel we are clearly off subject. But no hard feelings. My post just turned into an unexpected philosopical debate.
I just shared my personal story so that people understand that there are much “greater” forces at play.
The group I was in, is quite messed up in general but I feel I could have ended in a much worse situation.
People who come here are usually damaged and hurt. We are not here to defend a philosophy but rather to vent about our horrible experiences.
And the fact that so many stay regardless the rotten sangas is because of the “bliss” they get from “serving”....
But when people come here the agenda is to expose.
I cannot handle people with gloves when I express myself in here.
I spent years in fear of saying or doing the wrong thing with the Krishna group Those days are over.
The damn fear is still registered in my emotional body. Like walls that have absorbed the smell of the cigarette smoke.
So I truly am not ready to go back into that mode whatsoever.
Some people like Ian, did not chose this. Were thrown in it by parents. Some were born into it and they keep pretty bitter memories since childhood.
They may have zero attraction to Krishna. They were literally thrown into worship both deities and guru since they had a pacifier in the mouth.
So of course they will not present the philosophy in an honest way.
Because they were HONESTLY screwed by fanatical parents and unqualified teachers.
I have never been around genuine teachers, devotees...
I myself have never reached my full potential in that spiritual snake pit.
When fear, guilt, partialities, pressure.... are prevalent, the connection to the divine is distorted.
I think I experienced an imitation version of Krishna Consciousness.
If you want to present the philopshy in an honest way, you can always write your own blog or start your own classes away from Iskcon.
Use your energy in the right direction.
I encourage any “positive” spiritual practice in an atmosphere of love and friendship.
There must be a much more conducive platform to do it than here.
Facet, I respect that you don’t want to share your personal story with strangers.
Just makes it hard to know what led you to where you are today.
I am fine with you being skeptical. It is your path and journey.
I don’t feel fanatical about any particular faith, deity...
I just don’t really get the need to debunk so many “spiritual”, supernatural things.
We MUST try to keep an open mind even with things we have never experienced.
If tonight a UFO lands and 100 people get abducted in front of another 100 people it will make the news.
But if one single person gets abducted, very few will believe their story. Or they will be gently invite them to the psych ward.
Why do we always need personal experiences or proof in order to believe another person’s fringe experiences?

Truth wins Wrote:
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> I have never been around genuine teachers,
> devotees...

In a sense, and from a certain point of view, EVERYBODY is a devotee. Once ones' consciousness transcends the kanistha platform, that is, one realizes this. :-)

The first time I head the maha-mantra being chanted, I was an atheist and was not interested in being preached to. A week later, I was no longer an atheist and had a japa mala in my right hand. My consciousness had been well and truly trandformed.

This is the mystical force that drove me to Krishna Consciousness.

> If you want to present the philopshy in an honest
> way, you can always write your own blog or start
> your own classes away from Iskcon.

This is called the Cult Education Forum, not the "Support Group Forum". I am here to educate. Facet is here to preach atheism and argue (for the most part), seems to me. It's obvious to me that facet does not know thing one about the philosophy, the books, none of it.

I tell my best friend that just because his parents were fanatics, and Hobart Freeman was a madman, that this does not mean that Christianity is bullshit, that the Bible less than worthless, and/or that God does not exist. So just because Chris Butler is a madman and somebody had fanatical parents, this does not mean that Krishna Consciousness is a bunch of bullshit and that God does not exist. Same thing.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2021 06:28AM by The Whirlwind.

My friend you are quite fixated on the name of this forum.
It is very much a SUPPORT GROUP. A place where we can openly discuss our negative and traumatic experiences.
People are free to think what they want really. Including atheism.
You stepped in the process willingly. You were thrown into it. I also dove in deep and quick. It was a choice.
Those who were forced into it by parents or born into it, are not obligated to stay faithful or keep a loving relationship toward the deities.
Also some people may never have significant mystical experiences that get them hooked.
A very strict, serious Krishna Consciousness regimen is not for everybody. It is a more joyful and interesting version of being an Amish.
Same shunning methods too.
It takes a huge level of dedication.
We cannot just focus on the transcendental bliss of the Kirtans, Japa, nice stories, Appearance days....
This is a CULT education forum. The fact that Krishna is mentioned in here is because Iskcon and its offshoots became too cultish and rotten.
As I said it before, peoole come here to talk about the cultish experiences. Not to glorify God.
I suggest you make a separate post if you want to defend ACB and the philosophy.
It is a rather separate subject that needs its own place and more details.
You could explain how the Iskcon abuse did not affect your faith and much more.
Remember that your faithfulness is also yours alone and cannot be expected from others.
Most people get very turned off by negative experiences in so called spiritual groups.
It may very easily lead them to atheism.
You know why devotees always stick with each other. It is to always talk about Krishna, avoid offenses, atheists, impersonalists...
My ex guru would always say: Beggars can’t be chosers.
This is why I put up with all those different personalities for years.
It is because the philosophy is so unique and strict that you cannot just hang out with ANYbody.
You cannot come onto a CULT education forum and get annoyed people do not believe in God or have a negative view of K Consciousness without any knowledge.
I remember a “new” guy being thrown out of one our retreats for being “offensive”.
I am sure he will always remember this process and the followers as a disgustingly fanatical one.
This is what the so called devotees do best.
Ban every single person who dares speaking negatively about the fake gurus and the philosophy. Fear and guilt galore.
If people think Catholics are fear based, they have never been in Krishna groups.
Cathegorize them as demons....
We must Let go of any level of fanaticism. Be it big or small.
It is like me going to a bar and getting annoyed at people who drink alcohol.
I have nothing against your dedication. I am just saying that it is being wasted in here.

The Whirlwind Wrote:
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> Then why are you here? Just to argue and preach
> atheism?

There’s no real need for me to explain my existence I am afraid.. though it has probably already been made clear throughout my postings.

I appreciate that it is hard to deal with the cognitive dissonance in mixing with those who do not still adore Krisna Consciousness as you still do, it is uncomfortable to be in.

Y’know somebody here at cult forums posted a while ago about a topic called “Pavlovs Dogs”, in relation to the study, sometimes people will (unfortunately) beat their dogs terribly, but the dog will still return to its owner. It is classed as loyalty but the real reason is that most often because the dog has been fed in the past and has learned to prioritise this need being met despite all odds - this preference has been formed in the brain as a memory via neural pathway.

In humans, and given varied application of context, we call it Stockholm Syndrome.

[www.simplypsychology.org]

Did you read Ian Koviak’s posts?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2021 04:31PM by facet.

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It is classed as loyalty but the real reason is that most often because the dog has been fed in the past and has learned to prioritise this need being met despite all odds - this preference has been formed in the brain as a memory via neural pathway.

To correct myself:

It is classed as loyalty but the real reason is that most often because the dog has been fed in the past and has learned to associate its surroundings with the act of being fed. The dog will prioritise focus on this need being met despite all odds - this preference has been formed in the brain as a memory via neural pathway because of the associated surroundings.

To add in connection, in conditions like CPTSD (complex post traumatic disorder), the associations have been made strong and we start seeing the repeat all the time expecting the same traumatic outcome after the repeat trauma exposure. It also reignited what was there already formed to begin with.

By association.