True, there are no perfect teachers. But there are teachers that don't use manipulative techniques to make and keep you dependent on them, fortunately.

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garuna
Since 2015 I have met or talked to more than ten people who have been under the influence of Shunyamurti and have left him. They all describe the same manipulation tactics : being flattered in the beginning, making them feel understood but then subtle ways to scare about leaving him, to demand total and unconditional devotion to him, to cut ties with everything else, to lose all self-autonomy and trust in self. He is using : fear, guilt and shame.

Edited to add: We shouldn't demand perfection from teachers, but we should demand integrity. Normal ethical standards apply to spiritual teachers too, and to students as well. I'm watching an interesting panel discussion about this at the moment: [batgap.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2020 04:50PM by zizlz.

Hello sffs,

Thank you so much for posting and sharing the information.

The subject is something I have previously understood in my own journey. I recognise that we’re all humans, and the paradox in the perfection / imperfection thing. This does not mean that I am willing to bypass integrity though, everyone is responsible for themselves and I have got no free tickets for it, not for anyone.

zizlz has already written what I was ready to say after reading your post.

Nevertheless, it’s great to hear that Shunyamurti’s work and teachings (if shunyamurti would call them his own? I’m not so sure on that) are working for you and holding you in a space of gratitude.

Well, an update on this generally, during last weekend I was searching the forum about something else and came across some information others have already posted about the practice of hypnotism.

This link, posted about something called Nested Loops gave me a brain click because of the “great” story teller I associated with Shunyamurti. Y’know, story telling and listening is great childlike fun, except if your being duped for reasons beyond that.

Interestingly, nested loops is also a named process part of python computer programming. Ffft. It is also a component of NLP.

Here on CEI message board we've discussed the nested loops trance technique.

To get the straight dope, go to Search.

Select all dates. Put The Anticult in the author slot

Put nested loops in the words slot and select exact phrase.

Anricults contributions elicited lots of troll disruption.

Hello facet

Thank you also for your reply and input.

I agree totally with you and ziziz too about the importance of upholding integrity - especially with respect to spiritual teachers and their students.

Integrity is certainly an essential quality that is absolutely necessary to ensure further and deeper growth for all.

It is great that you began this thread here facet. May the posts continue to be helpful and beneficial to very many others .

corboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here on CEI message board we've discussed the
> nested loops trance technique.
>
> To get the straight dope, go to Search.
>
> Select all dates. Put The Anticult in the author
> slot
>
> Put nested loops in the words slot and select
> exact phrase.
>
> Anricults contributions elicited lots of troll
> disruption.

Thanks corboy, I’m on it.. from memory I think this is the same poster or thread poster as I’d found the link in.

You’re welcome sffs, it is mutual on your contribution too :-).

I would like to add that any of us could put ourselves up on a pedestal and look down to see an adoring, perfection seeing fan base. It isn’t always the case. I’m aware that it does indeed happen, though it does not happen with everyone. Some are observers.

I’m happy to see that integrity is agreed with, I feel it an important social factor for all of us to maintain, essential in a field or role such a Shunyamurti’s.

I have learned so much more from this, thank you for the nod. It has been rough going though I rather know than not know. I knew a few years ago that nlp was used to manipulate for ill purpose though not the actual workings (I never looked into it that deeply) and certainly not hypnosis.

I had to google what “flaming” was, and flaming posts so that’s a learning curve too. I see what you mean about the anger.

In my own questioning on the Shunyamurti topic this week, if the end of the world is really upon us as Shunyamurti regularly broadcast, then what is the need for charging for the services at such a high end cost? Does Robert himself pay into keeping the ashram and associated going by doing another job it is it all dependent on paying visitors and the new subscription for content?

None of this is transparent. I sure miss the days when everyone was genuine in my mind haha, it’s no wonder we’re told not to question because none of these people make actual sense when you do. One thing I noticed, important thing I learned: I had to stop questioning the teaching, and start questioning the teacher.

Big distinction. This is where the while down not ask questions’ thing is hidden, you may be able to ask them which will seem genuine upfront, but they will be filtered into questions about the teaching - permitted, and questions about the teacher - not so permitted.

That last bit in the previous post is meant to read “do not ask questions”.

I recalled an upload from a while back, three years where Amrit Desai visited the Ashram. On a re-listen, Amrit states some of the endeavours and trainings that shunyamurti has undertaken in order to be where he is today ashram wise. One of those stated is “business”, which speaks volumes to me now.

At around 53 mins in, Shunyamurti shares with Amrit his belief that the world will do a reset and we will all have to start again in growing our own foods, etc, his language appears to point to that being in our current lifetimes.

https://youtu.be/gZiegHyKtac

I recently attended Sat yoga retreat and my retreat was shortened by Sat yoga's decision. I was supposed to stay until April 2, which is 30 day Ashuram experience; however, they asked me to leave asap after I expressed my disagreement responding their unilateral 'suggestion' on unrequested psycho analysis and working for Shunyamuti' s wife at his personal kitchen. The official reason given to me was 'due to cov 19, they sending internatinal participants. Oddity is there still are many international participants. I left Sat on March 23, 2020. I believe non of the facts disclosed will offend or defamr Sat as it happened in open space at Sat Ashuram during mutual interaction.

On April 2, 2020, Sat sent email promoting their upcomming online retreat and recommended me to write google review. I wrote respectful yet direct and honest gogle review, which was removed by Sat within 10 minutes. There were 13 reviews in google review yet the posted ones were only 10. The review left are all idiotic review (no offense) like 'it was magical and fantastic'.

If Sat is henuinely motivated for human liberation, they should let people read all colorful reviews and let people make their own judgment. Their selective removal of any opinion questioning their fixed 'image' suggests Sat is spoon feeding selected information for mere marketting purpose.

I wrote in google revirew on April 2,2020 as follows(you can visit google review and see the number of reviews and number of the posts. I am probably one of the ones whoes name is there yet,the post is empty);

Review goes,

I recently attended the retreat at Sat, which was shortened due to cov19. My retreat was in a word 'a beautiful disappointment', which was exactly necessary for the spiritual maturity. Sat yoga may serve particular type of phsycological construct just like any other spiritual teachings, but not for the contruct who has solidly grounded truth of one's own. Sat definately provide impressive quantity of information, although there is a point where it starts looping its underlying agenda. As we all know truth is amorphoric and cannot be captured by anyone in anyway, as such any teaching rooted in any nature of 'agenda' is dead teaching.
Sat teaching and retreat may be appropriated by the ones who have still point of their own spiritual home; however, if one has yet to be grounded stillness of own, before embarking on Sat teaching, one needs to know how to stand still facing the storm of external information which rooted in Sat's own agenda for a decade. There are beautiful trees, flowers, and animals at Sat Ashuram with which one can connect to as well as inherently beautiful human soul potential for inspiration. Although, during my stay, my innerbeing felt deeply hidden fear and lonliness among the residents. The repeated dream I had during my stay was being dragged out of crowd standing in lines by Jiddu Krishnamurti{ as you may know, the indian philosopher who is deeply against all kinds of sectarianism and 'guru' business}. There are wisdom in limited view as long as ones firmly stay centered on ones' own inner truth facing tsunamy of information which has unfortunate sublim stain of imposed fear, repression, authority, and paradox. There is yearning from innerbeing to share this rather unflattering yet direct inner voice.

Namaste all

-- end of review---

One thing I noticed happening at Sat Ashuram is some Sat residents 'listen people and tell to whoever making decision', which is similar to communist regime or G. Owell's 1984. There are a couple of sat crews who are overly enthusiastically royal to Shunyamurti, who constantly glorofy and defend his teaching and seem to tell all to whoever making decision. Despite, I felt strong compassion and spiritual intimacy towards most of Sat residents who inherently have beautiful soul, yet could not hide their deep fear, sadness, lonliness, and repressed life energy in them. Some of them were in my eyes not happy to be there. I note it is purely personal point of view.

Responding to Sat's unilateral suggestion about psycho analysis sessions and working at Shunya's kitchen, I expressed my view to one managing person and in 2 hours, Sat asked me to leave the program asap.

Sat asked participants to do seva, which is volunteering for Sat a few hours a week, which is very delighful as it is fruit picking and preparing foods for all. Normally, people work at the field or kitchen; however, they scooped me out of normsl seva and asked me to work at Shunyamurti's resident kitchen for his wife(herein after R).

I felt a bit like a 'maid'as I still cant understand why paying participant is asked to work at the spiritual teacher's personal residence kitchen along with their maid(yes, they had a maid and I assume she was paid, but I paid). R,whom I genuinely adore and felt deep connection, asked me to cook food{I am asian heritage and she is deep in asian culture} for her and probably for Shunya. Before this wierd seva request happened, soon after my arrival at Sat, one Sat personnel asked me if I like cooking. I said yes to be polite and in fact I used to enjoy cooking before kundalini awakening. She was delighted and asked if I can make my heritage food, so I said yes as I assumed the food is for 40 people there and I would enjoy cooking for 40 people. Then she asked various stuffs about asian cuisin and said R loves korean food. BTW, it is not a secret, I am korean heritage living in North America.

One day later, R sent email with youtube cooking for her beloved korean food. I have been having constantly activated kundalini (dont ask me why as kundalini energy is complicated, and yes I am one of those wierdo who speaks to god, see stuffs, although I am not into it) and not feeling physically great;but, I responded her by email after studying the food with the list of ingtedient. In fact, I have a complicated job in real life, and I have not cooked korean food that much as I live in North America. So I had to study to cook that korean food. I felt odd as I was at Sat for liberation but I studied korean cooking. It did not feel approapriate.

I thought it was one time event, so I did make a few korean foods with great effort,and I had a meal with R and enjoyed the encounter, which was ok but surely distracting. I am not interested in talking nor building any relatiinship with anyone as that is where the spiritual reality at the moment. By the way, R is innocent here, and I have no intention to make any disgraceful notion about R. In my eyes, R is like a innocent princess rocked up in the tower of spiritual inigma. I adore her soul.

Then, next day, Sat managing person came and unilaterally asked me to work for R's kitchen 3 times a week. She said it as if it is some 'glorious'offer; however,I never see such way as I dont care having personal relationship with anyone even if it is the wife of so called 'enlightened being'. Such activities are mere physical and mental distraction to my point of view.

I was there to finish my journey in silence not for 3 times a week kichen work at Shunyamuti's residence kitchen. Also, after my kundaliny awakening in 3 years, I have never cooked for my ownself as,some may know, kundalini sweeps away common sensical way of existence, and my being has been in the process of dissolution perse.

Also, Sat unilaterally said to take 3 times a week 'session' with R asking if I am financially ok. Oddity is that I never requested nor expressed that I was interested in healing, on the contrary, during pre telephone call in the process of application, I expressed that I am not interested in healing nor classes. I just want to be alone non stop meditating in a safe environment. Although, later, I said, I will put my kundalini ego aside and will participate Sat programs as much as I can.

Sat knows that I am not into healing nor classes they offer. I am never interested in their phsycho analysis, which was not impressive. It seems to be all very limited, repeatitive, and predicatable. Also, Sat charges $100-125 per session in US cash. I met R 3 times as I felt something unique vibration around her and I wanted to observe her cl
Osely and I did. I shared my sad childhood, wounds, and triumph with R but none are secret worthy to anyone in my view. I feel close connection to R and compassion towards her soul for undescribable reason.

The opinion I expressed responding to Sat's suggestion was as follows. This is almost verbatum as close as I can recall:

"This is confidential(not anymore I guess). In terms of the sessions, they(Shunya & R) can only suggest the session but it will be me to decide. I dont think I will have more sessions with Shunya as I finished conversation with him (Sat personnel asked if I dont want to see Shunya before I leave, so I answered no and it is mutual understanding with Shunya) and I will see R two more times;
One for to finish my story and another for to hear her story. I will do seva three times a week at R's kitchen but I prefer to do so in silence and I dont want to hangout with R nor be friend with her as it is not good for me. I dont want to eat lunch with R and I prefer to eat my meal just like other participants. Please save my meal for me if I stay at R kitchen passing the lunch time.(the personnel laughed and said she will save my lunch). R is nice and devine and all, but I am not here to have a good time with anyone, I am here to meditate in silence. I want to meditate as much as possible alone"

After that conversation the Sat personnel said' thank you for being honest'. After that meeting, I attended the class, and at the end of the class, they gave a note in the piece of paper saying'you dont need to go to R's for seva, instead the Sat personnel wants to see you'. So, I was happy as I dont need to work at R's kitchen. I am not Shunya's deciple, and I have no devotional nor glorified view about him.

At the meeting, the Sat personnel said, I needed to get airplane ticket and leave Sat asap as I am international and they worry I get stuck in Sat. I told her let me get back to her. After I spoke to my spouse, we agree that I can stay at sat longer even if I get stuck one year. I spoke to the Sat personnel and asked if I can stay longer regardless of the possibility of getting stuck. After a couple hours later, the Sat personnel answered 'no'. Oddity is there are multiple internationals at Sat and I was the only one asked to leave.

In my view, Sat doesnt like anyone not fully obeying their dictation. I met Shunya in person close twice (each about 55 minutes in his small study room for paying session each $125 us) and another 5-6 times I vibrationally observed him sitting vety close physically, I felt that he is very different in person than his editted exposure in youtube.

In my view, he is not particularly interested in anyone who has 'ground' or 'spiritual bone'of their own. He appears to care for rather vulnerable and a bit shaken soul(I say this based on my view that unless one is shattered,dream analysis only delay the liberation as one has to be identified with the person who has wound to heal), who has entrance and room for his teaching only(in my view Shunya has authoritarian attitude towards his own teaching; he seems to be into creating his own vocaburary) along with full on psycho analysis and dream analysis. I am more following Jiddu Krishnamurti, just dropping all the known and dissolve into nothingness- there is no room for dream analysis for this path.
I could be wrong about Shunya being a bit dictator and narcistic as this is purely personal view of mine.

During my stay at Sat, Cov19 got serious, Shunya and the residents, at least in my eyes, appear to celebrate that finally Shunya's apocalypse agenda physically arrived. I give credit to the amount of information Shunya pours and selectively awaken insight of his; however, I see fixed'agenda' in him, and that leads Sat teaching is limited for human liberation. After a while, his teaching loops its agenda of apocalyps. Is it really prophecy if I say 'you gonna die' and repeat myself everyday until the day uou really die. Of course world we idiolize is dying every day in varing scale, but is it really a prophecy? And is there a room for prophecy in genuine human liberation?

It was definingly disappointing scene watching Sat was stocking up disinfective items and toilet papers in the middle of the mountains. In my view, they have the least reason to be panic. But they exibited clear sign of panic. In doing so, Sat asked 'donation' with fixed minimum amount of $260 USD to prepare them for cov19. Technically, it is not a donation if it is mandatorily asked with minimum amount. I donated with delight not for Shunya but for the young people at Sat, who zeem to be stuck there for the reason only they know. I feel deep compassion for them for some undescribable reasons.

These days, some spiritual teachers who have genuine intention for human liberation and conpassion are offering their ashuram for community use (ex. Sadhguru from Isha)and offering free daily satsang to be with confused amd terrified humans. This aspect raises deep question where Sat teaching stands.

As we all are ware, Shunya has been forwarding the notion of the end of the world for a decade, and 2012 he really forwarded his apocalyptic agenda, which proved to be inaccurate. Now, his stain { i took the liberty of calling it as his stain, as that stains nothingness in his own teaching}is excited about the current human tragedy. Like everybody on the path, I have my own level of awakening and I can say this much- nobody knows anything. World is a concept; as such, there is no world to end from the beginning. So called world is ever changing phenomena of universe, and never there as any fixed form, so the concept of the end of the world is already sectarian belief. Yes, there can be disaster, there can be war, and there can be massive death of human race, but that is just that. IF all humanity is wiped out, that is just that and nothing to do with Shunya's apocalyptic prophecy. No one can predict ever alive life itself. Even if this socalled world ends, that is not because Shunya predicted so, that is just that.

BK or Shunya or whoever push any fixed agenda on the notion of apocalypse, that is not genuinly serving truth nor human liberation. You all make your own decision if you r going to be a minion of Shunyamurti or of any other so called 'guru', but if you have ears to hear, step aside and see as objectively as possible and make a decision which will serve your liberation and growth free from external agenda rooted on one individual's spiritual dream. Never be affected by anyone or any set of agenda rooted on fear, repression, and manipulation.

Namaste all.

Thanks for sharing, Amoo!

You're obviously not open to becoming a mind controlled devotee, so a long term stay probably would have been neither in your nor in their best interest. In that respect, they did you a favor by asking you to leave.

Quote
Amoo
truth is amorphoric and cannot be captured by anyone in anyway, as such any teaching rooted in any nature of 'agenda' is dead teaching.

Quote
Amoo
Like everybody on the path, I have my own level of awakening and I can say this much- nobody knows anything.

I wholeheartedly agree with you! When you have that realization it's obvious that anyone who claims to have a monopoly on wisdom is just ridiculous and narcissistic. You saw that the emperor has no clothes and probably, Shunya noticed this and felt exposed.

Quote
Amoo
During my stay at Sat, Cov19 got serious, Shunya and the residents, at least in my eyes, appear to celebrate that finally Shunya's apocalypse agenda physically arrived.

That confirms the impression I got (as I wrote earlier) that Shunya seems to anticipate the apocalypse gleefully, probably because according to his Brahma Kumaris beliefs, he'll be one of the few pure souls to survive it and enter the Satyug where this select group of souls will rule as gods.

I think Shunya will be disappointed when it turns out that the nuclear war that he keeps announcing still won't be happening anytime soon, and he'll still be just another human pretending to know everything, and his treasure trove is just a toilet paper stockpile.