I am amazed to see that this thread has over 22,000 views. That is awesome and there is a lot of people reading this and getting exposed to another side of Hawkins, than the ones you read at his internet fan groups, which has only over a thousand members. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

You mentioined I can get my money back for the books I bought. Do you think that is true, even though I bought them from Barnes and Noble and BOrders, rather than from Veritas. Do you have any experience with this or know anybody who got a refund from Veritas just by asking??

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shimon
I was wondering if you could share more about what the ACIM teachers said about Hawkins.

Both teachers of [i:301c25a956]A Course in Miracles[/i:301c25a956] that I specifically wrote with independently stated they believe applied kinesiology and his calibration system are complete nonsense, that they tell anyone this who asks and have told a number of people, but that they did not wish to write on it publicly at this time. They do not feel Hawkins is a part of the Course community, though some Course students do follow him. They felt that there is already a lot of material debunking Hawkins and did not feel personally called to also do so publicly at this time. One of the teachers specifically refers people to Dr. Ray Hyman's article "How People Are Fooled by Ideomotor Action" [www.quackwatch.org] , as he feels this explains the kinesiology results Hawkins gets. They believe, as most Course students do, that the historical Jesus is the author of [i:301c25a956]A Course in Miracles[/i:301c25a956], and that Helen Schucman was merely a "scribe." Note that Dr. Bill Thetford saw it more as "Christ Consciousness." ( See [www.google.com] , by the way.) This is a fundamental difference between Hawkins and the Course. Hawkins calibrates Jesus at 1,000, himself above 990, and the Course at 550-600, as you said. There are other contradictions with the Course, especially as already pointed out by Gary Renard (making illusions real, focus on illusion rather than forgiveness, etc.), and such things as being a "co-creator" with God (ACIM teaches this, Hawkins disagrees). To hear Hawkins contradict the Course himself, listen to [www.miraclescenter.us] . For example, he believes the text is lower than the workbook.

One of the teachers I wrote with said he felt that Hawkins' calibrations of his own books, the Course, and so many other things (even noting the US being twice as advanced as other countries) show that his whole system is simply ideomotor response, i.e., unconscious expectations channeled through apparently involuntary movements. The teacher also knows people who have worked with Hawkins and he does not consider him to be a bodhisattva of some sort. He does feel very strongly that Hawkins' calibration system is pseudoscience at its worst and concluded after reading many of the associated critical links on Hawkins, which he found to be fascinating, that it is weird stuff and there is a very credulous spiritual audience out there.

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shimon
He teaches relying on the Holy Spirit for true perception and is always talking about surrender, as does the COurse do.

He also teaches to rely on AK. I believe he places AK first, but perhaps I am mistaken. Teaching to rely on AK means by default to rely on Hawkins, as his calibrations are the only ones anyone listens to because other people never get the same results. I doubt the Holy Spirit would perceive low calibrations. Also, the Course has a heavy emphasis on the "inner teacher," and Hawkins' system contradicts this. I think "surrender" in Hawkins' system shamefully means surrender to everything Hawkins -- his will, thoughts, opinions, perspectives, positions, "truth," politics, and calibrations -- not to God. His calibrations are made out to be identical with God; disagreeing with them is tantamount to disagreeing with God Himself. Beware of false prophets who are really wolves in sheep's clothing, as Christ said.

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For then he wants recognition,
A place before other people,
A place over other people.

"Let them know my work,
Let everyone look to me for direction."
Such are his desires,
Such is his swelling pride.

One way leads to wealth and fame,
The other leads to the end of the way.

Look not for recognition
But follow the awakened
And set yourself free.

-the Buddha
[www.pa56.org]

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shimon
My benefit though from Hawkins is him teaching me, reminding me to stay away from astral stuff, not to take vows or oaths, to stay away from that which is harmful and to go towards that which is positive, and the true characheteristics of a true teacher. Too bad Hawkins himself doesnt follow some of these characteristics. But his list is pretty good.

You can find these teachings elsewhere; there is nothing special in this. I contend that what a person finds to be special about Hawkins (i.e., AK, etc.) once seen through will reveal that there is nothing unique or even worthwhile about his teachings. Yet, there is "that which is harmful" and so a person would do best to perhaps "stay away" from it. The idea is that the true teachers are teaching the same thing anyway, so nothing is lost by giving up one particular teacher; indeed, there is much to be gained by giving up Hawkins' teachings, including your own mind and God-given individuality.

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Cults are also on the rise because people are under more stress, we're more sleep-deprived, and our society has less confidence in government and religious institutions. Combine all those factors and I would say people are more susceptible to someone who comes along who's very confident and loving -- and offers answers....Essentially, people are not allowed to be themselves as unique individuals in a mind-control group. Any traumatic experience or rough period in life can make a person more vulnerable to a cult, but the greatest vulnerability is a lack of understanding about how destructive cults operate. -Steven Hassan [www.learner.org]

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shimon
I was wondering if you could private message me on here.

Done. I will give you the email addresses of the two Course teachers also.

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shimon
I wanted to know more about the lawsuit of the person who was typing up a transcript of Dr Hawwkins office series tape. Is there any link to this. Also, any other information about the You Tube incident. WHy his video was pulled.

There wasn't a lawsuit, just a threat from Veritas about it being copyrighted material and to have everyone delete it. It was sad because the person who transcribed the lecture ("Illness and Self-Healing") worried about having "karma" against Hawkins, and thus urgently requested that everyone sent a copy would delete it and report when this was done. There is no link. But I do have access to a copy of the email sent out, which has Veritas' two emails attached. Here is what Veritas said:

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Please do not do this. People will put it up on the internet and start to read and make tapes of the work. DO NOT GIVE TO YOUR STUDY GROUPS OR TO ANY ONE. I know you your sorry but This could get out of hand. Retrieve all transcripts...

Hi,

Please do not share in a word -for-word transcript of the tapes - put in your own words the tapes, with quotes from Dr Hawkins. This is copy righted and can not be duped.

If you can not control the people in the group, then do not do any rough copies of the work to share with the group.

Thank you,
Pat
Veritas Publishing
www.veritaspub.com

I have no other information on the Google Video. If Hawkins didn't mind, a person could put up all of his videos on there and/or You Tube for the "raising of the consciousness of humanity;" sadly, this does not raise the bank account of Hawkins and so will most likely never happen.

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shimon
This lawsuit stuff really irritates me and totally turns me off. This doesnt speak highly of hawkins.

Just wait until you hear what is happening right at this moment...More to come...

Hi Phoenix Potter,

I find your posts so awesome and informative, you rock man. I cant wait to read what you write. It is so helpful and refreshing to hear these perspectives. I cant wait to hear what is happening right at this moment. Please do share when you know more. Everything you share is so enlighteneing and thought provoking. I have gained so much already by reading you.

Teh Miracles center link they do not have any Hawkins audios on it, you are mistaken, there is nothing to listen on there.

The google video, I did see it before it was taken down. I enjoyed seeing it and when I went back to watch it a second time, it was already pulled, taken down.I was very dissapointed. I feel these teachings should be freely displayed for all to see.Many ohter teachers, gurus, like eckhart tolle, gangaji, adyashanti, neelam have countless videos on google and youtube that they share freely for all to watch. Why is Hawkins controlling his videos so much. Probably because he wants you to buy them. BUt I cannot afford them and I know many others who cant too. They are just too expensive. Again, isnt a true teacher not supposed to be interested in money and profits, but in helping humanity. So it looks like he is interested in money and profits, right? Or am i missing something. So my only access to one of his videos was pulled and now I am deneied seeing anything of his.

That threat from Veritas about the transcription of one of his tapes is bizarre and even more bizarre is the person worrying about their karma. Boy they have been duped. They are trying to share and help people to heal and they are forbiden by Veritas and now think they did something wrong, how backwards is that. Veritas does not sound too good to me, it sounds like an evil entity/corporation with lawyers constantly threatening people.

Please share more and more. I am soaking this all in.

Thanks.

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shimon
Teh Miracles center link they do not have any Hawkins audios on it, you are mistaken, there is nothing to listen on there.

That one has been deleted as well, strangely. He gave a talk on July 26, 2006 ( [www.miraclescenter.us] ). Perhaps if you contacted them they still have it somewhere or could get it to you if you wanted.

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shimon
The google video, I did see it before it was taken down.

I believe that lecture is one of the few sources of Hawkins stating that he was an alcoholic. Usually he simply refers to "a progressive, fatal illness that did not respond to any treatments" or even to a "genetic" disease. So in 1965 when he was a practicing psychiatrist and about 38 years old, he was an alcoholic atheist who called out to God and became enlightened, as the story goes. Context is indeed important, as Hawkins teaches. That which every 12-stepper does is considered extra special enlightenment to Hawkins. Hawkins states that he went unconscious after he called out to God; he had probably been drinking. His being an alcoholic reveals a lot to my mind, including a better understanding of certain of his behaviors, his heavy edorsement of AA, former work with Bill W., and emphasis on having people rely on something outside of themselves for guidance.

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shimon
Many ohter teachers, gurus, like eckhart tolle, gangaji, adyashanti, neelam have countless videos on google and youtube that they share freely for all to watch.

I have noticed that too.

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shimon
So my only access to one of his videos was pulled and now I am deneied seeing anything of his.

Not only that, when a person buys one of his videos, even the videos have written on them that the buyer can not resell them (if memory serves). That keeps Hawkins as the sole source for buying his many videos.

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shimon
They are trying to share and help people to heal and they are forbiden by Veritas and now think they did something wrong, how backwards is that.

The message of every one of those "Office Series" lectures is simply to not resist whatever it is that ails you. There, I saved people lots of money.

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shimon
Veritas does not sound too good to me, it sounds like an evil entity/corporation with lawyers constantly threatening people.

Veritas is run by Hawkins. It seems that nothing there happens without his decree. So, by extension...

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shimon
You mentioined I can get my money back for the books I bought. Do you think that is true, even though I bought them from Barnes and Noble and BOrders, rather than from Veritas. Do you have any experience with this or know anybody who got a refund from Veritas just by asking??

I don't think so if they are not from Veritas directly. Robert Carroll states that Hawkins gave a refund: [skepdic.com]

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shimon
Teh Miracles center link they do not have any Hawkins audios on it, you are mistaken, there is nothing to listen on there.

I contacted them to inquire about this.

Here is the response:

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Dear Phoenix,

Thank you for your interest in MiraclesCenterUs and for your inquiry.

The Law Firm representing Dr. Hawkins requested that I remove the material I had on my site from public access to protect his copyrights and intellectual property rights. The talks are available in a private password protected area of the site. If you would like access to this area, please let me know and I will set up a password for you.


In Gratitude, Peace, Love and Joy,
Phil

I've noted before that L. Ron Hubbard’s “emotional tone scale” and David Hawkins’ “map of consciousness” are very similar.

[en.wikipedia.org]
[www.mapofconsciousness.com]

They share several verbatim levels:

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Shame
Apathy
Grief
Fear
Anger

And several that are similar, such as “Cheerfulness” and “Serenity of Beingness” (tone scale), and “Joy” and “Peace” (moc).

They also both have a demarcation between the positive emotions and the negative ones.

As I already stated, I understand that both of these have their origin in established psychoanalytic research.

I wonder if Scientology's “Religious Technology Center” ( [en.wikipedia.org] ) would care about this similarity? [www.rtc.org] What would happen when two litigious cults come head-to-head over copyright issues?

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:lol:

not only is hawkins map of consciousness similar to scientology, it is also strikingly similar to the Sedona Methods map too. It is in the Sedona Method book by Hale Dwoskin. So in my opinion hawkins map is not so original and he seems to have gotten most of his stuff on it from Lester Levenson the founder of the Sedona Method, and maybe some from L Ron Hubbard. The only thing Hawkins added to it was his calibration numbers in its lograthiimic form, which as far as I can tell, makes no sense and has no mathematical accuracy, it is a silly system and he shoulld have just stuck with regular numbers instead of logarithimic.