For the most part I agree with you rrmoderator. In the past I could be manipulated without my knowledge. But not everyone is in a state where someone could manipulate them. It seems pretty obvious that someone has to have the right insecurities to be manipulated. For instance if I feel all arond good about myself I could even be tortured and not give in. If I have all sorts of negative opinions about myself, then someone has to just play into those opinions to manipulate me. So it seems clear that the way to not be manipulated by others is to clear up one's own insecurities, to see that they are not true. (this works for Byron Katie, Maharishi Yogi, political leaders whoever the manipulator is)

Assuming Byron Katie and her organization "International" are what everyone here says it is. If I don't have any insecurities about myelf, and people ridicule me because I'm not going along with the exercises (or even bad vibe me), that will not effect me. Rick Ross or myself could not be duped. (I'm pretty certain about this) If I think people have some reason not to like me, and then the same thing happens, it might make me try harder to win approval and thus be "sucked in". If I don't have any insecurities I could even participate and not be "sucked in" almost as if undercover. This is why people who are part of groups like that are evidently effected differently.

My point being, I don't have to know anything about Byron Katie or anybody else, and if I'm confident in myself because of the absence of insecurities then immediately if Byron Katie tries to knock my psychological crutches out from under me is going to fail, and I'll see right through them, for the precise reason that I don't have any psychological crutches. Weird glances, disapproval, and ultimately insults and ridicule will not have any effect on me. It is not healthy to be insecure or effected by other people's (including Byron Katie's minions) fluxuating approval. What I have just mentioned points the way to the most effective ways to deal with Byron Katie, cults, dictators, abusive spouses, because they are all the same phenomenon on different scales and use the exact same "techniques". They all require that the subject to be manipulated think negatively of themselves. There is no way someone who doesn't can be manipulated.

My first wife was emotional manipulative and at the time I was insecure about myself, felt like I was not a good husband. She even could almost be violent at times. She constantly as if I were a puppet manipulated me into doing things I didn't want to do. The problem was that the mean things she said to me, were things that I already thought about myself. So to be free of her emotional abuse is/was contingent upon me changing the things that really were true and needed to be changed, and seeing those that weren't, weren't. Then I was free. What anticult references from Cognitive Psychology as Uncondional Self-acceptance. If everyone did that, cult leaders, dictators, abusers would have no followers/girlfriends.

I had an girlfriend whose ex-boyfriend was physically abusive, even forced himself on her. She was very insecure and he had only to prop her up based on her insecurities and she would fall back into it, until she started to realize she wasn't all the negative things she believed about herself. I'm sure if Byron katie fits these patterns, for instance calling people "sweetheart", etc. the same thing applies.

"BK's constant stories making use of the most frightening images, war, Nazi death methods, robbery at gunpoint and suicide pacts may be intended as gateway image metaphors to induce her followers to abandon everything (cash and power) to her, but in a pressured situation these are the images that also induce/contribute to paranoia, in both the receiver and the storyteller."

What you say may be true about Byron Katie and her motives, however war, nazi death methods, robbery at gunpoint, car accidents, cancer and a zillion other things are what we contend with being mortal. Those are things that clearly everyone has to deal with and come to some kind of peace with. A good spiritual teacher, or priest, guru, what have you would have to deal with those thigns, because it's what most people subconsciously fear. What is the fear based on, fear of death? What is the fear of death based on, attachment to worldly things. Point being, even a genuine spiritual teacher would deal with those things precisely because the person coming to them fears them.

We're doing something right.

Disruptors keep arriving.

Skeptical Republican seems especially interested in Anticult, being condescending, trying to find out what Anticult's role is, here on this board.

Dont let any of these characters goad us into anger.

They'd love to do exactly that, and they're not worth our vitality.

Again, we are getting lots of these visitors lately.

Anatta, Kassy, Skeptical Republican.

Ignore them.

Instead, keep providing info about the BUSINESS STRUCTURE of BK LAND.

That my friends is actually THE SECRET.

Its not spirituality.

Its a business--the kind of business that Jesus kicked out of the temple when he overthrew the money changer's tables.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2009 11:42PM by corboy.

How to Kick Byron Katie Out of Your Mind--RECOVERY TIPS

If you are a Christian: Imagine BK is running at a money changers table at the entrance to the Jerusalem Temple.

Watch Jesus kick BK her out and her followers out. "This is a house of prayer, not a market!'

If you are Jewish, see Simon Weisenthal and Elie Wiesel. If you had forebears who died in the Nazi concentration camps, visualize them. Watch them all march up to BK, waving copies of Losing The Moon and show her blow ups the the page with this text:

Then see Simon and Elie and your martyred relatives and the trustees of Yad Vashem Memorial in Jerusalem kick her out and shake their KZ camp tattoo numbers in the faces her followers and yell, 'Shame on you! Wake up!'


This is the text from Losing the Moon:

[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote

page 35, of LOSING THE MOON, Byron Katie starts talking about Nazi's taking babies from Jewish mothers and throwing the babies into a firepit near the end of WWII.

QUOTE:
_____________________________________
"If Someone (God, "what is"), pulls my baby from me - if that's what it takes, I'm there. Take the baby. Tear my baby from me. Throw it in the fire....My discomfort is my war with God. [...]
You see, there are NO choices. What is, is. [...]
But when we get to the baby thing, we're getting down to our sacred little concepts now....You take my baby from me, you're messing with the illusion of I'm the mommy, this is the baby, there's the daddy...
But tearing the baby away- that's the higher. That's the higher, because it snatches your story from you and makes it apparent in your face - nothing's real short of reality....
That's it. That's what is. That's love. That's absolutely Un-describable love. That you, God, would even give me that.
Can you know that Hitler didn't bring more people to realization than Jesus? On your knees - God. God! God! But our stories of reality keep us from the awareness of God is Everything. And God is Good. [...]

There has never been evil and there never will be. Evil is simply a story about what's not...
But I have trashed the baby when I have trashed the Nazi...
I am the baby going into the pit. I am the one throwing the baby in the pit..."
___________________________________________________

Byron Katie just keeps going on and on from there.

So according to Byron Katie, Nazi's mass murdering Jewish women's babies by burning them to death alive while the mothers watch, is the loving work of God.
As a matter of fact, Byron Katie says that baby killers are "higher" than the illusion of mommy.

There is something very seriously wrong with this very sick person, who is now hiding her true beliefs behind whitewashed manuscripts.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2008 08:36PM by The Anticult.

Other discussions of this here:

[forum.culteducation.com]

It should be noted that copies of Losing the Moon are now very hard to find.

Here is the current price list on www.bookfinder.com--prices as of today range from 101 to 131 dollars.

[www.bookfinder.com]

As I said before, the moderator is usually long-suffering. Actually, by my standards, I'd have to say 'to a fault', although I've been called a hot-reactor and a hot-head before. Hell, at the first sign of victim bashing/blaming I'd ban a poster in a heartbeat. It shows disrespect to the forum and it's rules, this thread, victims themselves and all the others affected, not to mention Rick Ross.

Thanks for the reminder, Anticult, about:

Quote

Its interesting how basically always the main method around Byron Katie, is denial, deflection, distraction...but also exaggeration.

It's helpful to have things brought freshly to mind, when they apply.

Whether by accident, coincidence or design there certainly are a flurry of these incidents lately. And even though one shouldn't attack the individual, I think it's fair to hold up a spotlight on it when it occurs. I'm with something corboy said recently, and I paraphrase: "What the hell is the problem with there being one, lonely place where people can go to read the information contained here on Byron Katie?" The obvious LGAT techniques and the documented accounts by people who have come awake to what has happened to them is considerable on this thread alone, and grows daily. There are even new threads that deal with peripheral aspects of this whole thing. So why the hell does it bother some people so much? What irks me is that some people who tout 'staying in ones business' seem to throw that concept out the window, when they get to this forum. Has this thread become a place where apologists apologize for the long-winded apologists? Perhaps the best way to handle this is to ignore, but in a free discussion it seems inevitable that someone will be drawn into what amounts to be a diversion from the point at hand.

Maybe a quick response to a disrupting poster could be dealt with in this fashion:

Reason one

Quote
Disruption
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

Reason two

Quote
Disruption
and furthermore blah, blah, blah

Reason three

Quote
Disruption
Finally, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

Those three reasons alone are sufficient to my lack of response.

Or something like that.

One last question:
If someone alludes to RR and Anticult being one in the same, who is being called the d***head? RR, Anticult, or both?

qd



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2009 12:07AM by quackdave.

Instead of dealing with each disruptor, one by one, it'd be more interesting to find out the role these disruptors play--whether they're all free agents??

If so, its an astounding achievement if a business can get so many people enthralled by its product that they freely, independently, and for NO PAY, show up in droves on the single independent website that exists and try to disrupt it--and in such a similar manner--and at such an expenditure of energy and time.

THere is positive advertising in the form of testimonials--that is familiar to us.

But how about negative advertising, in the form of disrupting internet discussion venues critical of the product?

Trolling could be termed negative advertising of sorts. The New Technology has given this a scope and a power that requires our closer scrutiny.

Take all that BK troll energy and divert it in worthier direction and we'd have a cure for HIV by now.

Instead that trolling energy is used to support existing power imbalances, and all that human effort goes to defend an already rich and powerful female entrepreneuse who presents as Just One of the Girls but is patriarchal capitalism---wearing skirts and pantyhose.

And Mr Ross is clearly labeled here as the moderator, and none of the rest of us has that title.

So its disingenuous to even ask what Mr Ross's role is.

skepticalrepublican:

You don't come across as skeptical at all, but rather more like a "true believer," largely focused on defending Byron Katie.

It seems like both you and your son, who you claim is interested in Byron Katie, are not that far apart in your beliefs.

BTW--Someone who thinks they cannot be manipulated or "duped," is often an easy target for con men and manipulators generally.

You really should study more about how such manipulation actually works.

Attempting to essentially blame the victims rather than understanding the process isn't a meaningful response to the situation or the harm that is done.

Those who willfully manipulate others in persuasion schemes to exploit them are responsible for what they do and the harm that they cause.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2009 03:07AM by rrmoderator.

Why is that every single one of the Byron Katie mixed-apologists, always "say" they are not much involved with Byron Katie, or not at all? Why?
Why is there basically never a Byron Katie promoter that just says..."yes, I went to all the BK seminars, I worked for free for years, I run 3 blogs about BK, I work on the hotline, etc".
Why don't they ever come out with it?

Why with all the lies? The endless lies. Is is just a habit from the BK world, or an ingrained tactic?

But "skepticalrepublican", and others, should read the thread, before acting an expert in the complicated issues being discussed? What is up with that?
How can someone who obviously doesn't have a clue what they are talking about, (or is feigning as such), start making pronouncements about such complex issues?


This thread is flooded by BK trolls and outright liars who try to disrupt the thread. And that is how you deal with LGAT promoters, who try to manipulate people. You assertively call them on their bullshit and lies openly. That is what WORKS in the real world.
The previous comments actually serve the cause of showing that you cannot be a passive, soft, mushy sheeple around these con-artists. They will eat your lunch. But when you openly call them on their lies and BS, directly, they are finished.


One notices that skepticalrepublican ignores the listed FACT that BK and husband are listed as Democrats who gave a lot of money to Obama. Why ignore the facts?


And yes, Byron Katie group is very similar to Scientology, actually.

and "Mind Your Business" is right from the mouth of Byron Katie, this is the wrong place to try to pass of that kind of dishonesty. The reason Byron Katie says Mind Your Business, is yet another attempt to close down critical thinking about her methods and processes.
Anyone can search Google for:

"mind your business" byron katie


How can a person claim to have knowledge about something as complex as the BK system, and they don't know what Bait & Switch is? Seriously, its shocking how such arrogance, can be mixed in with ignorance of things that are just common practice.
If its real, its a dangerous ignorance, but its more likely just "playing innocent", which is EXACTLY how the Byron Katie LGAT salespeople take advantage of people who happen to be a bit "too nice". Its all very ugly.


And the fact that kassy and anatta "conceded" things about Byron Katie, means nothing whatsoever. The fact that a BK salesperson would also "concede" things means NOTHING. Its a TACTIC.
Again, that is a basic, sales 101 tactic. They "agree" with various criticisms, then simply lure the person in using that.
If you walk up to a BK salesperson and say, "BK is a scam artist", they won't deny it. They will nod their head and say..."I hear you saying BK is a scam artist", then they reel the sucker in.
This is basic stuff, its sales 101.

And "Kassy" was a proven conscious liar, who was lying about lying. A lie is a lie. He was an internet troll who admitted in their own blog what they were doing.
So for someone who doesn't bother to read a thread, there is no point to it.


And to make a statement, "no one can manipulate anyone without their consent."
That is either a dangerous ignorance of reality mixed with arrogance, or deliberate misdirection to confuse people. Either way, its lethally dangerous.


Its a shame all of this trolling is being allowed in this thread. Its just going to go on and on, just trying to fill it up with distractions and garbage.

Welcome to the sordid world of Byron Katie, that must be what its like once a person gets deeply involved in the BK group, and then goes to BK coaches, and BKI people with problems and questions.
They make it like mental quicksand for those folks.

Maybe someone can ask the Moderator to rethink what is happening with the thread?
As there is so much good information in it, is it helpful to let it get filled up with a bunch of pointless games, distraction, and deception?

also...what if some of the trolling, is related to a person who may have some significant "disturbance" and is just going to keep creating the internet sock-puppets, and never stop?

Once banned, some people with "issues" become obsessed, and literally won't stop, and will make literally hundreds of posts if they are able to do so.


So maybe the standards for posting could be raised a bit for a while, until it cools down?
Otherwise, the sock-puppets may go on for months and hundreds of posts. (there is evidence to back that claim).

Its not fair to those who are trying to sort out this complex Byron Katie and LGAT situation, to be messed with so obviously.

skepticalrepublican has been banned from this message board.

His or her last few posts were barely nuanced flames/personal attacks.

This thread seems to attracting quite a few trolls and/or the same troll coming back with various new names.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2009 03:09AM by rrmoderator.