Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Stoic ()
Date: August 07, 2011 10:49AM

Perhaps clever Peter gave the serious willies to the Apostle of Wank. It must have shaken him more than a bit, the fooler fooled.

Shout out to Peter, wherever and whoever you are.

I'm off.
The krishna fancier again:


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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: August 07, 2011 05:51PM

(...and a lovely melody, there Stoic....thank you!)

Can someone remind me again, why we know that the "Kronmiller" twins left......

.....the other "odd event" last year was the sudden dramatic "loss of broadcast" of the JC site for some weeks on end.....commencing towards the end of the first week in November (Friday the 5th or earlier....)....then after weeks of delay, the site was up again with no-one but McKay trying to sham a "brave front" and there were the the constant visits of current members, who looked in, without contributing a thing....something that the knowledge of so, threatened McKay that when Zeuszor pointed it out, McKay shut the tracking function down to public view....

.....I must say that I suspected an "implosion" something along the lines of the '96 split had occurred.....McKay petulantly storming off and then vainly assuming that they'd all come "running back" to him soon enough, as HE was the show, wasn't he....and without him, the other members would have nothing to "market".....they however sticking to their guns and requiring McKay to meet some "ultimatum" (that he never complied with...of course! No-one, but no-one, has the right to question an Apostle!)

As you say Stoic as the newsletter contains NO hints at discord....THAT is a hint in itself, that something very unplanned, dramatically arose!

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: August 07, 2011 08:33PM

I always try and give Kev the benefit of the doubt, given his age in Broken Hill at the time. However, when he states things like Dave had broken with the COG leadership in 1974, I know from my own research on the Broken Hill period, that that is BS! I think Dave and Cherry worked on him over the years and he has come to accept their version of events.

The newsletters are so full of nonsense, I just laugh at them now. Would you be impressed if I told you last night I slept on cardboard without blankets? (I didn't). Would it make me spiritually superior? I guess if I survived the night, I would have been on a, "Survival Outreach". What a joke!

Broken Hand

Barry had an accident with his bike last week, landing on his hand and breaking a bone. It has been particularly awkward for him, trying to distribute copies of Survivors with just one hand, but Barry has soldiered on bravely. He will probably be in a cast for another four or five weeks.
Well, why not give him some time off to rest? Surely, with over a million copies already in circulation he could take some time off?

Israel Trip

It has been seven years since Paul donated a kidney to a woman in Israel. She has been asking him to come back for a visit ever since the donation, so he went over for a short visit during the month. Wonder who paid for that?

Ulrike was invited too, but her passport was nearly expired, and so she could not travel. As our passports expire, each of us will be waiting on God to open doors before we consider any further international travel, because we do not want to be associated with the microchips included in the latest passports. I wonder how long it will take before they change the policy on that, when they realise it will curtail their activities? Will they have some revelation saying the passport microchip is okay!

Survival Outreach

Trevor went on yet another survival outreach, this time with Ross, before he left Sydney to join the U.S. team. They slept on cardboard without blankets. Only one night was particularly cold, and the next day someone gave them blankets to be used for the duration of the outreach. And a genuine homeless person probably missed out on the blankets! This makes no sense at all! What purpose does it serve? They will probably just end up sick.

When he arrived in the U.S. Trevor was pleased to see that Jesse and Reinhard had been working on ways to do less driving around the vast L.A. area, and to cut down on their own food waste as well, all in preparation for the day when we will be starting to live entirely without money. I find this fascinating. So the JC are planning to live entirely without money? Does that mean they will no longer sell Dave's books? Dave and Cherry can probably ditch the membership soon, as they can both get the Australian pension and travel around in a campervan like grey nomads. They will still probably enjoy their annual overseas trip, so their lives won't be much different from a large number of Australian pensioners.

Dave and Cherry are probably receiving the aged pension now and don't need the cult anymore.

Jesse joined his father in performing at a church service, where they both played in the band. Jesse played the saxophone.

Joe's Surgery Looms

Joe appears to be very close to donating a kidney to an unnamed recipient, with the operation planned by the end of the month, providing all the tests were successful. Probably the reason he has been so hostile with his parents, lately! His loyalty test is looming!

Holiday for Rob and Chris

Rob and Chris were given a week's holiday at a hotel in Kisumu as partial compensation for having missed out on the reunion cruise in Australia. They had been near exhaustion from the many duties at the volunteer centre, and the week has brought them back feeling more inspired and refreshed. They had been at near exhaustion. So much for plurking!

There so much more I could comment on regarding the newsletter. That these people don't see they are in a cult staggers me!

All this talk lately against gossiping may mean their has been some dissention in the ranks. McKay doesn't want members to talk amongst themselves and raise doubts as to how the cult is progressing, so he makes this article up about not gossiping. It the same tactic he adopts when he speaks of murder. Keep the members away from critics by suggesting they are dangerous and wanting to murder them. Hence the membership is isolated from hearing critical information.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: Stoic ()
Date: August 07, 2011 10:26PM

'All this talk lately against gossiping may mean their has been some dissention in the ranks.'

Thats a good point I think.
The newsletter serves to deliver the Apostle's current directives to the outlying members in his absence so the meat will be in articles and discussion topics suggested by the Apostle. Anything else is just feel-good filler to keep the troops happy and busy in the community spirit and on the streets.

I'm going to look at the articles again, but I was thinking that maybe there was some attempt at an internal coup or putsch, that may have failed. That must be a cyclical problem in cults as members grows in confidence and knowledge and decide to test that confidence. I can't think of any likely candidate amongst the members though--none of them seem to have what it takes.

The gossiping reference along with the Rick Ross article and the ammunition given to counter the outsiders lies against the cult could indicate a bit of rebellion or at least dissent stirring somewhere.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: August 07, 2011 10:27PM

All this talk lately against gossiping may mean their has been some dissention in the ranks

I absolutely agree with your analysis there Zeuszor...raising doubts about how the cult was progressing would be a heinous abuse of free speech in McKays' twisted mind.........however by "this talk" dates from the newsletter you mean the "talk" at the time of the last newsletter in November 2010......McKays last post on the JC site was on the 31st July.....a little over a week ago.....are there any references to the "evils of gossip" (clearly as you intimate, doing no more than voicing discontent with McKay and the workings of his empire), that I have missed in other postings?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2011 10:29PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Date: August 07, 2011 10:46PM

Oh, I see pardon the LINKED articles (which I generally ignore).......oh in that case yes....there could be a suggestion of McKay quashing an uprising.....

Alf may have the "nounce" to be able to think independently (I am only judging from what I've seen of clips of him in video's) stage an "uprising" you'd have to have enough "authority" to be able to potentially attract some wider support in your own right! I would generally agree with Stoic that none of the exisiting membership would have the ability to be able to "see" outside the bubble McKay has enclosed them in....however, these little empires run on psychological REPRESSION, and I could imagine how some trifling thing (the money splurged on the cruise?), blew up, into a larger confrontation, where unexpressed "feelings" were then vented more widely....

Still it was not clear to my why Robin and Christine were unable to/not invited to/chose not to take part in cruise....the two of them, would have the "political weight" within the empire to be able to question David.....and for him to have to, at least go through the motions, of pretending to "answer" money would be on them (if anyone) realizing perhaps, that McKay was betraying is the Apostle's sad wont...

Although....Ross has "walked" on him in the past (although always without the intention of dividing the community by his departure)....and the other couples, Fran and Kim, Paul and Ulrike.....might have hinted that the example of the Gianstefani's "appealed"....

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2011 10:52PM by Malcolm Wesley WREST.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: August 07, 2011 11:42PM

Want me to post the preceding couple of newsletters as well?

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: August 07, 2011 11:49PM

Mal, I really don't think that any of this is worth all the drama for me anymore. Too many personality clashes have come into it. If everybody was a bit more united, then it would be worthwhile, but I don't see that happening.

It is unfortunate that there are so many self interests involved in the whole JC issue. There are very few people (that are involved in the JC debate) that I can have a meaningful dialogue with. Everyone appears to have an individual axe to grind. There is so much preoccupation in scoring points and expressing moral superiority, that the whole point of the exercise i.e. of educating the public about the JCs, becomes lost. Of course, David wins every time he can score points off the divisions between his own critics.

It just becomes counter productive with people like Blackhat coming on to have a go at me, in an effort to support the others. The ex clique are concerned about the split or personal family issues and so it goes on...

Whatever it is afflicting most of the JCs is not just thought reform; most of them probably had serious issues, even before McKay got to them.

The other day for example, Ulrike mentioning she had a brain tumor removed when she was six! There is something psychologically imbalanced with virtually the whole lot of the JCs!

When I was 6 years old I had a brain tumor. I can't say that I really knew who God was or that I prayed to get healed. My parents probably did. The operation was successful and now after years I believe that God already was in control by not letting me die, so that now I can follow Jesus and am thankful that I'm still alive.


These types of statements will piss some people off and I am going to be accused of "victim-bashing" again; I know I will get the lecture, "but normal people join cults too", and all that. But we all know some of the common issues that have been identified about JC members. Anger-management issues, pissed off at parents, plain old gullibility and naivete, not very bright/educated, borderline tendencies, and what have you.

Damien certainly seems to fit the angry man type that the JC attract or are able to recruit.

I think a major dent has been made in the JCs. There is probably value in keeping the RR thread alive will good factual info from time to time. But all the politics, fighting among people, engaging with the JC, etc. I can't waste my time anymore, for now at least. Too many positive things I could be doing and I just seem to be being hammered from all sides!

I have decided to (for the most part) take a break for three months or so and see what happens to the ex JC site and RR, etc. Later, I will re-evaluate this decision. I'll probably post the newsletters as I get them, but that's it.

Just yesterday I read a chapter in Survivors which talks about people choosing to be with the Christians (Tribulation Force)instead of the government of the Antichrist.

It says that a few people towards the end of the tribulation still decided to join the Christians although they don't really know what they believed. But they knew that they believe that the system of the Antichrist is not the right thing so they turn towards the Tribulation force (the Christians) who have the faith to do the right thing.

It struck me that they could see the evil in the system and didn't want to go with the majority.
Survivors is just a novel (about what may happen), but I think this part of the book shows how people who have a little bit of faith (and a lot of courage) can do the right thing.


OK, Ulrike, but the BIBLE also shows how people who have a little bit of faith (and a lot of courage) can do the right thing. Why not read it instead?

So the writings of DM seem to be more important than Scripture, in the JC world. That is to say, that all of the Bible's teachings are to be understood (for them) through the lens of DM's worldview. Pathetic. Most of the JCs are just dead from the neck up. And if they suddenly have kidney problems (with their one remaining kidney) they will be dead from the neck down as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2011 11:51PM by zeuszor.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: August 08, 2011 01:33AM


Farewell to Australia

The start of the month saw many of us flying home from the reunion in Australia. In the end, only Ross, Barry, and Trevor were left minding the Oz base.

Paul and Ulrike in New Zealand

We failed to report last month on the visit Paul and Ulrike made to New Zealand just after the cruise ended. It may have been their last chance to visit with Paul's family, as their passports are expiring this year, and there are not plans to renew them. Paul's parents are both in their late 70s.

While in the Land of the Long White Cloud, they distributed 1,000 dvds, and Paul was interviewed by an independent radio station on the topic of freeganism.

Visit with Boyd and Sheri

On their way to Kenya three weeks later, Dave and Cherry also passed through New Zealand. They had a great visit with their daughter and son-in-law (Boyd and Sheri), granddaughter, grandson and his wife, and two great-granddaughters. It was wonderful to be able to catch up on what has been happening in that family over the past twelve years since Boyd and Sheri left the Jesus Christian community.

Autonomous Teams

We now have several autonomous teams working on three different continents, in addition to those of us operating as a single community.

In England, Roland, Sue, and Danny continue to work as a family on their own, but in close co-operation with ourselves.

In the U.S., the twins have started up their own faith missionary base.

And in Kenya, Karl and Giddy have moved in with Casey in Nairobi, to get out thousands of Christian books to travellers on buses in the city. The third book in the "Survivors" trilogy, "Destroyers" has arrived and is causing quite a stir, since it describes the story of a young Kenyan man going through the last days.

Russell Crowe

Before leaving Australia, Jayme and Jeremy bumped into actor Russell Crowe while on a faith outreach in Sydney. They gave him a copy of the dvd "More Than Just a Band" and he said that he might email his thoughts after viewing it.

Survival Outreaches

Survival outreaches are continuing on three continents, with some good faith-building experiences.

Trevor and Barry spent a week on the streets of Sydney near the end of the month, while Ross tended to some business matters.

About the same time Jesse and Reinhard did much the same thing in Los Angeles. They spent two days distributing free literature, then switched over to free work, including some volunteer work at the local museum. They also made signs saying "The Love of Money is the Root of all Evil", and "Don't take the Mark of the Beast" which elicited many positive comments from passersby at a local college but no deep conversations.

High School Reunion

On their way through Los Angeles, Dave and Cherry joined in with distributing copies of "Listening" there for a couple of days. They experienced great hospitality from Jesse's family, who invited the whole team to spend the night.

Original plans were for Dave and Cherry to attend a high school class reunion in Sacramento, but they decided against the extra expense at the last minute. Dave did, however, prepare a series of profiles on what members of his class have been doing for the past 48 years since they graduated. It took about six months of emails around the world to gather the material for the yearbook update, but apparently it was well received at the reunion, which included all former students of the tiny school where Dave and cherry first met 50 years ago.

Catching up with Friends

After having been away for three months, people in the U.S. and the U.K. were busy catching up with friends whom they had not seen for a while.

In L.A. there were a number of freegan contacts (Ryan and Eric, in particular), as well as the Catholic Workers to visit. Another visitor, Roy, shared about his travels around the U.S. without using money. He is planning a similar overland trek to Argentina... again, without taking any money with him.

In the U.K. members of the team were greeted at the airport by Nigel, a friend for more than fifteen years. Nigel took them to his flat, where they viewed some of his most recent artworks. Betty (from Uganda), who appears in the new video on the microchip implant, was keen to meet up once again, and she has been going out fairly regularly on the streets, distributing books and DVDs.

Fran and Kim got in some extra time with their relatives before leaving Australia near the end of the month.


Before they left, however, Fran finally got his chance to sky-dive (after yet another cancellation due to bad weather). Amazingly, his mother jumped with him. You can see a short video of Fran's jump by going here:


Adopt-a-Patient becomes Visit-a-Patient

Casey discovered another charity using the name "Adopt-a-Patient" and there was some talk of the two movements merging. Casey decided to change the name of his program to "Visit-a-Patient", but some good ties have been formed between the two charities.

Since returning to Kenya, Casey has made a small football shooting net for children at the hospital. From all reports, it is getting a lot of use.

Another Typhoid Outbreak

Volunteers at the centre in Kenya have been hit with typhoid once again. However, the symptoms were quite mild by comparison to last time. It seems that once you have experienced typhoid, your body builds up semi-immunity.

Veg-powered Vexations

The U.K. team has been busy with repairs to their various vehicles since returning from Australia. Complications relating to the switch to recycled veg oil as fuel have resulted in some teething problems. They are presently using a flocculant called magnasol to remove moisture from the oil, but there are rumours that this chemical can also cause excess wear on the engine. Time will tell.

The Web Site

Fran has been busily tidying up the various components of our web site, as well as putting the finishing touches on the two DVDs we produced in Australia. We hope to have copies of the DVDs out on the streets by the end of October... at least in the U.K. But you can watch them now (minus subtitles) on Youtube. Check out these links:

Beyond Justice: []

The Tyrant Within: []

New Articles

There are several 'new' articles on the site (, some of them actually three or four years old, having been discovered in a clean-up of old archives. They include:

Idiot Savants

What is a Heretic?

Let Your Light Shine, Pt. 2

Thou Fool!

Discussion Topics

As usual, the forum has been quite lively. Sadly, we discovered that a prolific poster on the forum during the previous month "Peter Strong" was really a stooge, trying to gather dirt on our community. It all comes out in a thread called Sorta Scammy Somewhat Scummy, Real Sick Shadie. That is exactly how we felt when we realised that we had been conned. Nevertheless, "Peter's" total failure in getting anything on us made it an educational exercise and a bit of a success overall. Here is the thread:

A much more positive vibe comes from this inspiring video sermon called "Lukewarm and Lovin' It," sent in by Irish Dave. Please do take the time to watch it. You'll never be the same.

There may be a slight breakthrough in Joe's family situation, as his father has started communicating once again after four and a half years. Read Jared's posts here:

And share your own thoughts on what is happening here:

When the Truth Hurts: excerpts from correspondence which dramatically illustrates the way people reverse their position when "the penny drops" and they realise that truth requires a response from them personally.

Alex Jones: Prophet of which god? started by Little Rose.

Managing Time Well based on some notes that Cherry made some time ago.

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Re: "Jesus Christians," "Australian cult," Dave McKay
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: August 08, 2011 01:33AM


What a month for news!

After more than a year of preparation, the week-long luxury cruise for ourselves and 22 relatives took place, preceded by a scenic and historic bus trip up the coast of New South Wales for our members from overseas, and followed by an an even more historic decision to make significant moves toward living completely without money.

Scenic New South Wales

On the trip from Sydney to Brisbane, members of the community stopped at several beaches, and visited the hippy village of Nimbin, the koala reserve in Newcastle, and the tiny village of Rappville, where the community first hit the headlines a quarter of a century ago. A trip to the local pub revealed that a mural by ex-member Kevin McKay is still on display there today.

The Luxury Cruise

Using a commuter bus, we were able to meet overseas arrivals at the airport, take them to hotels, and then get them all to the docks in time for the departure of the P&O luxury liner, Pacific Dawn, on August 7. It was a full-on week of indulgence with all you can eat meals three times a day, great shows in the International Lounge, swimming pools and a spa, exercise room, and everything from karaoke to trivia quizzes going on non-stop throughout the day.

At our first port of call, most of us went on a two-hour boat ride out to the Great Barrier Reef, where we were able to get up close and personal with the many colourful fish swimming amongst the coral. Besides snorkelling, there were rides on a semi-submersible and a glass bottomed boat, which sailed over places where the coral was no more than three feet below the surface of the water. Back on the ship, most of our guests participated in such things as a singalong, crossword puzzle quiz, and a lively discussion about our beliefs. The cruise directors made a closed bar available to us each morning for this purpose.

Joggers were startled early one morning when we conducted heats of our weekly two-mile phantom run on the jogging track at the very top of the ship. Some passengers joined in and others just cheered the runners on. We have more detailed reports on the cruise on our web site, including comments from those who attended. You can read it all here:


Living Without Money

Prior to the cruise we had held discussions about future plans for the community, and it was decided that we will take steps over the next few years to separate ourselves more fully from the economic system, including doing away with debit cards (We already function without credit cards.) and phasing out passports rather than take ones with a microchip imbedded in them. Our ultimate goal is to live without money at all, in preparation for the coming "mark of the beast", which we feel is an implantable microchip, to be used for all buying and selling at some time in the future.

We are just now putting the final touches to a video entitled "The Tyrant Within", which deals specifically with the Mark of the Beast. We hope to have it up on our web site shortly, and out on the streets by the end of the year. The video will include about half a dozen relevant music videos as well.

Survival Outreaches and Free Work

Teams of Jesus Christians varying in size from two to five, have been experimenting with longer faith outreaches, with some exciting results. Faith outreaches are ones where we forsake our vehicles, and take no money with us. We also do not distribute literature for donations. Each team makes their own rules on top of that, but some of the rules have included not asking for food, not going to homeless shelters, not raiding bins, and refusing any offers of money. Instead, our efforts have been focused on finding ways to reach out to others. These have included making signs offering "free hugs", offering to do free work for people, distributing DVDs for free, and having Bible studies with interested contacts. Some of the free work projects undertaken included holding a tutorial on website design, cleaning homes and basements, and moving furniture. Accommodation has ranged from sleeping under the stars to staying in a squat, private homes, student quarters at a university, a church, and sleeping on the floor of a launderette. Food has not been plentiful, but it has come from some interesting sources, and has been enough to keep us going. On two separate occasions, journalists heard about what we were doing, with one journalist interviewing Simon and Alf, and another interviewing Alan and Barry. In the interviews we were able to expound more about our lifestyle and why we live the way we do.

Skydiving Plans

Ross, Fran, Simon, and Bob had planned a skydiving outing in lieu of the snorkelling trip that others took on the cruise, but bad weather forced them to cancel. However, Fran's mother has offered to jump with him at a later date. Just shows the kind of adventurous families that our members come from!


Meanwhile, over in Kenya, Karl has found his own way to create new challenges, by pouring cement into metal drums to make a set of weights for a weight-lifting program that is proving popular with the local male population.

Visit from Giddy

Giddy came by and stayed for five days at Takatifu Gardens. It was good to reconnect with him after some time away. We are hopeful that there will be more contact with him in future.

Numbers down

Kenyan volunteer numbers were down this month, due to it being harvest time, when younger Kenyans help their families with the work on the shambas. However, just before harvest (during the school holiday period) we had a good week or two of inreach, including numerous Bible studies and some work on memorising Bible verse cards.

Rescuing Babies

Local custom requires that 'taboo' babies born to close relatives be killed as punishment for the liasion. In one such case, the baby's parents called on us to rescue the baby by taking it to an orphanage, which we were able to do with very little delay for paperwork.

A German/Kenyan couple who have also worked with us as volunteers, rescued a 16-month-old orphan boy from his neglectful grandmother. He weighed only 5kg, looked like a 6-month-old baby, and was suffering from rickets (soft bones) caused by not getting milk in his diet.

Hospital Visits

While visiting a friend who had been admitted to the local hospital, we chatted with a few other patients in the same ward. This has now grown into regular visits. When we first went it seemed like everyone was out to get what they could from us, but now there is a much more friendly community-like atmosphere when we visit.

Growing Chokoes

We continue to give out sprouting chokoes to older primary students. We finished one school and have expanded to another. Students seem to really appreciate them, as the chokoes reproduce prolifically once planted.

New Articles

There are three new articles on the website. One by Joe, entitled "Tribulation Vision", has been reflected in the move toward less dependence on money.


The other two articles are by Dave. One, an inspirational, is called "Thine is the Power". It reminds us that we need help from God even to have faith.


A specific type of depression is covered in "Laziness and Depression", where one is not aware that they are depressed, although their inactivity may be affecting others.

Forum Threads

As usual there are a lot of new topics, although some threads have strayed away from the original topic. Here are a few:

Comments on the latest whipping trial (in support of Falun Dafa), posted by Dave.

How to Play Werewolf, posted by Fran.

Curiosity about such things as Roland and Sue leaving the community, posted by Ian.

Dating the Enemy (on the media link), posted by Alf (which has veered into discussion of how we judge other people).

Top Chefs go Bin-raiding (on the media section), posted by Jackie.

Hate site attempt to exploit Roland and Sue leaving, posted by Craig posing as someone else.

Some Good Quotes, posted by CrossReach, which switched to talk about what people would be willing to do for ten million dollars.

Compliments to JCs, posted by Pagan Respector.

Balance between spiritual and physical activities, posted by Ulrike (which has drifted off into discussions of the benefits of the cruise and of running).

Worship the Creator, not Creation, posted by Trevor (which has drifted off into talk of healthy foods).

Accepting Godly Counsel, posted by Peter (which has drifted into discussions about whether we need scriptures to back up things that we teach).

How to Handle Money Wisely, posted by Peter.

How to Tell if You're One of the Two Witnesses, posted by Catherine.

End-time Prophecy, posted by Joy.

Homosexuality and Other Abominations, posted by Dave (which has veered into discussion over whether the Bible is the Word of God).

Jesus 101, posted by Peter, which deals with how much theology, etc. one needs to know to be a Christian.

Is Forsaking All a Once Only Experience? posted by CrossReach (Irish Dave).

Making Excuses for Disobeying Jesus, posted by Peter.

Exploitation of workers in Africa, posted by Pagan Respector.

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