So, are you going to parrot other peoples words forever or are you ever going to think and speak for yourself?

What is your take on this , not Eichel's was the question--or perhaps you have no answer at all.

Hypnosis and trance-work with a trained licensed competent professional is fine, it can be something good to try.
But the unlicensed sharks, its a nightmare.

Its the same as getting a medical operation from a licensed professional, or a backstreet butcher-job.
You can die from the butcher-job, where the medical professional could save your life.

Hypnosis is simply inward-focused-attention, by some definitions. So that can be used in a helpful way, or in a way to empty your bank account.

Frankly anyone who understands this stuff will not allow anyone who uses those techniques to use it on them. You think Tony Robbins, Bandler, or any of those guys would allow anyone else to do that to them?
Are you kidding?
They would laugh in your face. Or would spit in your face. They don't take any of this bullshit from anyone.

Its ok for them to do it to naive soccer moms and dads for profit, but you can't do it to them.
You are supposed to take it, but not them.


And yes, many of these so-called NLPers drank the koolaid and started to believe they could "cure" mental illness in a few sessions with their NLP tricks. They cannot.
Its a total fraud.
Personality disorders take a long term intervention.

But NLP is really about big cash payments.
Just go and check their rates.

I agree with you completely, Anticult, and am seeing NLP-type writings all over this board lately.

Perhaps you could follow the threads and give me your trained-eye professional second opinion on all these new posters who have sprung up lately and infested the board--is this, in your trained-eye opnion, the work of trolls out to cause havoc or not?

I am often mistaken and philosophical about it, being a not-doctor, perhaps you could give me a second opinion, on the board in the open, please, as I think my PM facilities have been temporarily suspended here.
All these new posters were managing to PM on only a couple of posts, and not the usual 10--so an inside job, I think.


Anyhoo, I got quite irate at being so obviously trolled in PM and took out my rage in the open, as is my wont, on the open board.

Waiting to hear from ya,

Why is NLP not on this list: [www.culteducation.com] ?

You can't really put "NLP" on that list as that is too broad a term.

Its more like certain aspects of "NLP" are used and abused by various manipulators.
And there are many types of NLP, from the basic self-help stuff they sell in books, to what amounts to NLP LGAT seminars, and the entire "hypnosis" area.
Its really rather complicated.
But there is nothing wrong with "NLP" per se, if anyone even knows what NLP is anymore, as they have relabeled it.

So unfortunately NLP is far too broad a term, and things need to be handled more specifically, as in dealing with certain NLP practitioners.
Its all kind of a big hot mess.

The problem is, is that the NLP big dogs have condoned unethical and illegal behavior from day one. They won't condemn Robbins or Bandler( I can understand why given the litgiousness nature of both) or stop mind-f**king clients anymore than they'd stop gouging people for their workshops.

IMO people are better off avoiding it altogether outside of those who want to study how manipulation is done.

If you want to learn Ericksonian Hypnosis, check out Stephan Gilligan or Jeffrey Zieg.
For Self-Hypnosis, check out Yoga Nidra or Autogenics.
If you want learn about language, study Steven Pinker or even General Semantics(S.I. Hayakawa "Language in thought and Action").
If you want learn about the latest in neuroscience from a layman's perspective study Rick Hanson's or John Arden for starters.
If you want to get more in touch with your body, study Feldenkrais.
For general personal improvement look at the works of Bernie Zilbergeld and Arnold Lazarus.

Study of these is relatively cheap since their books and DVD's can be had low cost. Compare them to the $2500 seminars NLPers charge.

My 2 cents.

Good point.
From day ONE NLP was all about charging BIG MONEY so the guy running the seminar could make huge paychecks for a weekend seminar.

It was a simple salespitch.
If you want to charge a big price, you need to make a big claim.

So they started to claim they could achieve massive results through NLP modeling, and since they were working such "magic" they could charge massive amounts of money.
Of course, the NLPers had to BRAZENLY LIE their asses off about these big false claims they were making.
Just brazen lies, to collect as much cash as possible.

As soon as the NLP seminar leaders learned they could make tens of thousands of dollars profit from a weekend seminar, all bets were off.

Those who sell NLP are some of the biggest boldest liars of all time.
They believe all beliefs are "lies" anyway, so why not just tell different lies?
Its all very dirty, which is why they try to cover all the dirt up.

Would not bother with NLP, DHE or any of it.

I agree with you completely Anticult.

'Design Human Engineering' a truly horrible concept, and open to abuse by any megalomaniac with the cash to buy and twist the tech to his own ends.

But there is nothing new under the sun.

A couple of years ago I read a blog comment, on a long dead Hindu chap called Dattatreya, that really did underline that for me:
[www.shivashakti.com]


"The Self alone is my Guru. Yet, I have learnt wisdom from twenty-four other individuals and objects. So they, too,
are also my Gurus."

Dattatreya then mentioned the names of his twenty-four Gurus and spoke of the wisdom that he had learnt from each as follows:

"The names of my twenty-four Gurus are earth, water, fire, sky, moon, sun, pigeon, python, ocean, moth, honey-gatherers (black bee), bees, elephant, deer, fish, the dancing-girl Pingala,
raven, child, maiden, serpent, arrow-maker, spider and beetle................

The rest is of the verse is here:
[www.blogger.com]


I'm not a Hindu, nor a believer in anything much at all, but I think that this very smart old boy knew what he was doing in giving general principles to enable a great diversity of individuals (with their individual foibles) to find their own power and wisdom in life.
Its a transferable skill too, works in any cultural setting, crosses all borders.
('guruphiliac' BTW means a love of gurus, a love of teachers--we've all got to start somewhere in this learning lark)

Eat your heart out, Bandler. You entirely missed the major point that made Erickson, Bateson and Satir--the originals you modelled----so hugely effective. Without grasping that one you are an also-ran, deemed to wane and fade.

No 'immortality' for Bandler, just more of what he is already doing. (which I seem to remember is huge amounts of cocaine and shooting a woman he had invited into his house)

I really like what this Thanissaro Bhikku (Pali scholar and monk in the Thai forest tradition) writes too.

[www.accesstoinsight.org]

He reminds me of a teacher I knew once who also didn't do explanations at all--he did enduringly great jokes though and made me work the hardest I've ever had to work. Good times.

This Thanissaro is likely a far from perfect person, but he writes good stuff and makes it available to many.

How many of these people will be able to pay for aftercare for their burns?

And what did kinds of forms did they sign before attending? Will they be able to sue or mediate for funds needed to pay their medical bills?

At least 21 treated for burns after Robbins event

Associated Press – 2 hrs 27 mins ago

Quote

SAN JOSE, Calif. (AP) — Fire officials in California say at least 21 people were treated for burns after attendees of an event for motivational speaker Tony Robbins tried to walk on hot coals.

The San Jose Mercury News reports (http://bit.ly/OJ9ha3 ) that at least three people went to a hospital and most suffered second- or third-degree burns.

Robbins was hosting a 4-day gathering called "Unleash the Power Within" at the San Jose Convention Center. Witnesses say on Thursday, a crowd went to a park where 12 lanes of hot coals were on the grass.

Robbins' website promotes "The Firewalk Experience" in which people walk on super-heated coals.

Witness Jonathan Correll says he heard "screams of agony."

Fire Capt. Reggie Williams says organizers had an open fire permit and emergency personnel were on standby.

___

Information from: San Jose (Calif.) Mercury News, [www.mercurynews.com]