to vdesign

the main gist of this thread, and indeed of other detractors, both Buddhist and otherwise, seems to be summed up in the sentence which claims that there is some real perversion of the Buddhadharma taking place by Mr Nydahl.

is it significant that your numerous posts seem to sidestep this issue?

it seems more significant to me that Ole's teaching seems to be rather divisive and results in a separatism, intolerance, and even racism in DWB members, that Ole seems subject to exactly the criticisms given in Shamarpa's writings on finding a good teacher, and that DWB as an organisation seems so caught up in the 8 worldly concerns, etc.

thanks to Blondie and Tony Dublin for the recent contributions - they both paint a picture which resonates with the general idea gained by most who are not caught up in Ole worship.

perhaps it is telling that pro-DWB contributors on this and other sites seem so focused on minutiae that they seem to lack any perspective of the wider picture? - this seems to be a symptom of being a DWB member which is self-perpetuating and which keeps one from either seeing the truth about Ole or from being a practitioner of any recognisable form of Buddhism as it exists outside of DWB.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2010 11:53PM by suenam.

@vdesign: only very short due to lack of time. thanks for the hint with the links, I updated them. That LON sees himself and his students in line with the "crazy wisdom" approach he stated in an interview: [www.buddhachannel.tv] (I linked that also in the article.)

The connection with Trungpa's CW I got from there, but I got it wrongly, hence I revised that passage. Thanks for the hints.

(I just glanced only very very quickly through your post and I will read it carefully later...)

Quote
suenam
to vdesign

the main gist of this thread, and indeed of other detractors, both Buddhist and otherwise, seems to be summed up in the sentence which claims that there is some real perversion of the Buddhadharma taking place by Mr Nydahl.

is it significant that your numerous posts seem to sidestep this issue?

it seems more significant to me that Ole's teaching seems to be rather divisive and results in a separatism, intolerance, and even racism in DWB members, that Ole seems subject to exactly the criticisms given in Shamarpa's writings on finding a good teacher, and that DWB as an organisation seems so caught up in the 8 worldly concerns, etc.

thanks to Blondie and Tony Dublin for the recent contributions - they both paint a picture which resonates with the general idea gained by most who are not caught up in Ole worship.

perhaps it is telling that pro-DWB contributors on this and other sites seem so focused on minutiae that they seem to lack any perspective of the wider picture? - this seems to be a symptom of being a DWB member which is self-perpetuating and which keeps one from either seeing the truth about Ole or from being a practitioner of any recognisable form of Buddhism as it exists outside of DWB.

Hi Suenam,

I do not aspire to shape your (on anyone else’s) view of DW. We are all responsible for the views we hold, decisions we make and the way we use our precious human situation. Internet is a convenient medium to exchange information and opinions and this is why I am on RR. To give my perspective on what is being discussed, share info about some facts which are not public knowledge, help others track down documents etc. This is all. What others take out of this exchange is up to them.

One reason for my prolific writing of late is that I grappled with most issues raised on this thread myself over the years and have some packages of ideas which do not take me long to type. Yes, I also had my share of caution and doubt about Ole and DW. In the end I have found the framework within which Ole’s personal style and DW setup make sense. But this is me – your mileage may vary.

The problem with your “main gist” and “general idea” approach is that it does not facilitate the exchange of ideas. You may say that DW is a perversion of Buddhadharma, I may say that it is not but we will still be no wiser as to why we think what we do. Big issues have to be broken down to manageable chunks to be workable. As in: is the fact Ole had many sex partners a perversion of Buddhadharma? The 3rd precept says "I undertake training in refraining from committing sexual misconduct". Does Ole commit sexual misconduct? Do his ex-girlfriends come out in droves to complain? Was that ever a problem with Hannah? If there are no victims what is the crime? Did Guru Rinpoche, Marpa, Drukpa Kunley (all had multiple consorts) pervert Buddhadharma? If Ole’s teachings result in intolerance – what is he intolerant of? Compulsory dress code for women? FGM? Suicide bombing as a means of getting one’s way?

For me “wider picture” emerges from answers to the constituent issues, not the other way. So sorry, on this thread I will stick to my bottom up approach and let others worry about the “general idea”.

Cheers,

Quote
Wangdrag

1. Essential to Buddhas teaching is a teaching on Karma, meaning basically cause and efect - one has done virtuous deed will experience virtuous fruits, one who has done contrary will have the contrary result. This has nothing to with estetical value, however Ole, asserts that also if one has seen a beautiful places, things etc. by doing this one will experience positive result. This can be seen here:

[www.youtube.com]

And then depending on what impressions one put into one's mind during that life, the subconscious content, then if one filled good impressions during

Hi Wangdrag,

I agree with you that Ole's comments in the linked video do not sound right. He implies that experiencing artistic beauty creates karma which of course it cannot as there is no willful action involved. Good on you for picking it up.

"Nice surroundings" in the context of bardo sounded familiar so I went through the videos of Ole's lectures to find out where I had heard it. It is mentioned in the "Death and rebirth" part of the dvd recorded at Three Bears in Sydney. It is not on YouTube but here is the transcript of the bit covering the transition into new mental reality (14.57-15.15 min):

There are different feelings which may come up as being dominant. It is possible pride may be dominant and the world corresponding to pride appears; beautiful palaces or artistic beauty or even abstract beauty or abstract clarity appears.

I have heard similar stuff myself in Ole's lectures before Phowa - artistic beauty as a feature of formless gods realm which is brought about by lots of good karma accumulated without breaking the illusion of ego and underpinned by pride. In other words pleasant surroundings produced by one's karma, not surroundings creating karma. What appears to have happened is that Ole slotted the "beautiful surroundings" on the wrong side of rebirth. He is only human and I have heard him slip up like this before. We have to cut him some slack - he is usually tired and jet-lagged during these lectures. Additionally the interview you linked included translation into Spanish which kept throwing Ole off balance and interrupted the flow of delivery.

If you are not convinced have a look at the linked video covering karma. It is 23 minutes long and not once does Ole mention that experiencing beauty produces karma. Instead he goes through the 4 conditions for creating the effect of karma i.e. understanding the situation, wanting to do something, doing it and feeling satisfied afterward. Any thinking person will understand that, in view of that, merely experiencing beauty cannot create karma.

[www.youtube.com]

There is also something for Suenam in this video. 3.20 min :

...karma is not divine retribution, it is not fate, whatever has not happened yet can be changed.

If you have come across any other book or lecture in which Ole claims that experiencing beauty can create karma please post more details.


Cheers,

Hi VDesign,

You only answered Suenam, so I assume you didn't see my post. Perhaps my question was posted in a way that did seem rethoric, but it wasn't meant to be. I'm genuinely interested in wether you believe that Ole and his partners can suddenly "switch off" the teacher-student-relationship. I don't understand how that is supposed to work, which is why I am highly critical of it.

He is a buddhist teacher, and students are encouraged to view their Lamas as buddhas. I don't think that female students who hold this view would deny him his wishes.

Quote
vdesign
There is also something for Suenam in this video. 3.20 min :

...karma is not divine retribution, it is not fate, whatever has not happened yet can be changed.


Cheers,

It is one thing to say this but act differently. I for one fail to see how Ole's behaviour aims at change - it seems confrontational, antagonistic, and tries to paint a picture of things being far more extreme than they are in reality (a technique used by the U.S. and U.K. governments to justify the Iraq war). It certainly does not aim at reconciliation, education, or any kind of shared understanding of difference, and it seems to focus purely on past antagonisms - what kind of future does such a perspective aim at?

The "threat" from Islamic extremism seems not only greatly exaggerated, but also done in such a way to exacerbate the situation - it would seem in the light of your comment on karma that it is Ole and DWB members who wish to take this direction, while at the same time using the idea that the behaviour of others is simply an unchangeable "fact."

An example of this is Ole's attitude to Africa. There is no attempt for DWB to spread Buddhism to that continent, but rather Ole simply writes this idea off as not being worthwhile.

The same thing can be said to their attitude towards other Buddhist traditions.

This is also something experienced by individuals on a micro level where people have effectively been "written off", told that they are confused and even that they are mentally ill. They have been excluded and told that DWB is not suitable for them, simply because they took a step back from behaviour which to both them, and to outside observers seems questionable. (emails are then distributed by the leaders to instruct every member to ostracise that individual, informing them of the ex-members "mental illness").

This method of exclusion, ostracism, devaluing, and invalidating those that either can't or won't assume the group identity is precisely why DWB is on a cult forum, and this behaviour certainly seems at odds with Buddhist ideas conerning selflessness.


- As for facilitating the exchange of ideas - I notice that you have found it quite easy to highlight faults with Osel Tenzin's behaviour and with Islamic extremists.

Many contributors have questioned aspects of Ole and DWB's speech and actions, and there are plenty of salient points that could be addressed. You say yourself that you have grappled with certain issues raised here, and that you have managed to make sense of any doubts. I for one think that further explanation of your views on that topic would provide greater insight into the current situation.


We accept that at some point Ole was acting in harmony with the 16th Karmapa and that both he and the Queen of Denmark supported Ole's project, however since then, DWB seems to have become highly politicized, ego oriented, and seems to exhibit
a high level of identity thinking. There also seems to be an emphasis on accumulating wealth, property, and membership at the expense of promoting Dharma (I myself have paid to go to DWB lectures where I heard the exactly the same lecture given as the previous five - no development in understanding or expansion of perspective, yet simply parroting Ole's book ad infinitum in an attempt to create a singular and rather narrow viewpoint).

There is a strong focus on extrenal threats which highlight fear as a motivator, and with the emphasis on religious and cutural differences, and this seems to be directed not only at other religions, but also seems to have an impact on DWB relations with other Buddhist groups.

There also seems to be an emphasis on pride and ego bolstering resulting in an attempt to create a strong group identity at the expense of openness and understanding, which in it's extreme form appears to invalidate any possible criticism of Ole and DWB. This seems to push DWB in the direction of a cult.
Tony Dublin's comment about how the way the Dublin centre was pushed, contrary to Hannah's wishes after her death seems to ring true to me. She seems to have exerted a moderating influence which now is sadly lacking, and subsequently seems to be leading to increased extremism in DWB which emanates from the top and seems to permeate the entire organisation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2010 10:59PM by suenam.

Quote
Sceptic Watcher
Hi VDesign,

You only answered Suenam, so I assume you didn't see my post. Perhaps my question was posted in a way that did seem rethoric, but it wasn't meant to be. I'm genuinely interested in wether you believe that Ole and his partners can suddenly "switch off" the teacher-student-relationship. I don't understand how that is supposed to work, which is why I am highly critical of it.

He is a buddhist teacher, and students are encouraged to view their Lamas as buddhas. I don't think that female students who hold this view would deny him his wishes.

Hi Sceptic,

I do not know or care. It makes no difference to me if they switch on or off or sideways (ouups…). There is actually something voyeuristic in peoples’ insistence on knowing what others do in bed, you know. I am a utilitarian (maximising sum of goods) and libertarian (do what you want as long as you are not hurting others) at heart and as such am mainly concerned about the results. From where I am the results look rather positive. Ole’s ex-girlfriends I know personally are strong, independent women. I am not aware of women coming out in dozens to claim they had been cheated, abused or mistreated by Ole. That is not to say their problems suddenly went away because they slept with Ole. All I am saying is that there is no pattern of bitterness and pain in the wake of Ole’s bedroom activities so whatever they do behind closed doors cannot be all that harmful to those involved. This is where the matter rests for me. On a personal note – I am struggling to make one partner happy, let alone 500…

As a thought exercise you may want to think about whether Yeshe Tsogyal “switched off” when she was in bed with Guru Rinpoche. Whether she did or did not it worked for both sides. Did Guru Rinpoche’s other consorts/students “switch off”? And more importantly – does it matter?

Cheers,

Hi Suenam,

You raised at least a dozen different issues in your latest stream-of-consciousness effort. As mentioned before I see no point in debating sweeping, generalised statements. I will keep writing in response to more focused posts, though.

All the best,

NB: How come Suenam can edit his/her posts and I can't?

vdesign:

"I see no point in debating sweeping, generalised statements "?

OK we get it, you are here as nothing more than an apologist for Ole.

You dismiss any criticism of your guru no matter what.

Denial is a powerful emotion.

It seems that all you really care about is how Ole makes you feel.

He makes you feel good and meets your personal needs.

As you say, 'This is where the matter rests for me."

Please understand that personal attacks are against the rules.

You have 30 minutes after your post is approved to edit it.

Quote
vdesign
Hi Suenam,

You raised at least a dozen different issues in your latest stream-of-consciousness effort. As mentioned before I see no point in debating sweeping, generalised statements. I will keep writing in response to more focused posts, though.

All the best,

I was simply summing up some issues that have been covered in detail already.

The fact that they are so numerous is one of the things that gives cause for concern, I was hoping that you might enlighten us about how you have managed to resolve your own issues with any of them - what "framework" you have used to make sense of these doubts you once had, and what sort of sense you had managed to make.

NB: Comparing Ole to Guru Padmasambhava would be somewhat akin to comparing a modern religious figure to Jesus - I hope you can see how this might appear.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2010 09:12AM by suenam.