If you're concerned, do a google on the relevant links. But the person who originally posted this on Craigslist is 100% correct: a lot of people are out there marketing tantra who have not received training from a genuine lineage. Verify all claims. It is worrisome that the person on the wholebodywisdom site calls himself 'a recovering intellectual' and that he claims to have gi
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Could be that Burton has moved on to a new obsession and the chilean wine palm trees are passe.
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

out there... some are covertly eager to find some way, any way to devalue compassion and empathy. Problematic LGATs are catnip for them. Another constituency hungers for some way to justify abandoning any need to respect ethics, and some even look for ways to devalue consensual reality. What they want is something that justifies a return to magical thinking (eg 'You make your own re
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"

Gurus actually live a rat-race existence. I used to think they were coddled. But earlier this year I read a book by Len Oakes 'Prophetic Charisma.' Oakes was able to interview 20(!) charismatic leaders of what we could call cults. He discovered that none of them lived an easy life, though a number did have entourages. He won their trust and found that all of them had to be &
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"

According to many sources, Oregon House/FOF is not a legitimate Gurdjieff group. I advise that you NOT sign any documents relating to money and that you get out of there just as soon as you can. If you have signed any documents relating to finances, get out, and consult an attorney--you dont want to be the scapegoat for any iffy financial transactions. Just pack your bags and leave. You d
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

'The situation speaks for itself' The pro-LGAT group rants and raves. The survivors group presents reasoned arguement, backed up by personal experience and documented evidence.
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"

listserve groups (done by clicking the 'groups' tab on Google, then going to 'advanced search' and putting 'Ron Spencer' in the exact phrase slot and then trying 'tulku' and then 'maitreya' in the 'all words' slot. These listserves cover discussion topics on Tibetan Buddhism, Zen Buddhism, all spiritual disciplines, Indian culture, Ti
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Yes. If you read the chapters on in in 'Call No Man Master', Joyce Collins-Smith demonstrates that MMY was well aware, even by the late 60s, that people were becoming passive zombies as a result of practicing his method. That was perhaps one reason in addition to greed and ambition, that MMY needed yet more followers; the zombies were not doing tasks that needed to be done to keep th
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"

oneself enlightened and setting up as a guru. 'Lotus Feet of Clay: A Reluctant Mystic Looks at Spiritual Movements' by John Wren-Lewis The author, a scientist named John Wren-Lewis, experienced enlightenment not as a result of virtue, or spiritual practice, but as a result of nearly dying from a dose of poison by someone who tried to rob him in Thailand. Wren-Lewis found
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Good articles: 'The Strange Case of Franklin Jones' 'Lotus Feet of Clay: A Reluctant Mystic Looks at Spiritual Movements' by John Wren-Lewis The author, a scientist named John Wren-Lewis, experienced enlightenment not as a result of virtue, or spiritual practice, but as a result of nearly dying from a dose of poison by someone who tried to rob him in Thailand.
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

If a hypothesis can only be 'proved' and there is no way to dis-prove it, its just mental baggage that will pile up and burden the mind.
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

First you get various factions forming as the guru gets feeble. The guru will delay naming a successor for as long as possible, because it keeps everyone on tenterhooks and increases his power. Either the guru does designate a successor before he dies, or fails to do so. In either case, rival successors often step forward and there's a big fight over disciples, book publication righ
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

However, if you're sure, deep in your gut that you were not harmed, you would not have needed to use so many capital letters in your last post. Thats the equivalent of shrieking 'I'm fine!!!'. If you know you benefitted, or at least were not harmed, then there's no need to feel concerned about our viewpoints. If you trust your perceptions, you're free to w
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"

If anyone wants to learn a bit about the groups that derive from Horn, read Taking With the Left Hand by William Patterson Smith If you still want to study Gurdjieff work, bear in mind that real G groups dont advertise or prosyletize. Most of G's material derives from Theosophy with some Tibetan Buddhism thrown in. Please read James Webb's history of Gurdjieff Work '
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

Fourth Way groups require careful evaluation by students, both those already in a group and those interested in looking for a group. More modern groups may utilize material from psychotherapy, may have psychotherapists (licensed and unlicensed) as leaders, members, or both. If any group becomes socially isolated and uses powerful methods of inner work and self disclosure, it may despite co
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

tho this may or may not succeed Try and post an inquiry on the NYC Craigslist. Sound like you're interested. If you query about 'the work' and make it look like youre worried that it is a cult, you might have your post flagged and removed. That happens constantly on the NYC Craigslist, but not on the two West Coast sites! But you have to see if your pal is involved with
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

The group 'needshelp' is referring to is a freelance Gurdjieff/Fourth Way group led by Alex Horn. He created the Sharon Gans group, and a former student of his, Robert Burton created yet another freelance Fourth Way group, formerly called Fellowship of Friends, now called Renaissance. The Rickross site has a lot of archived material for all these groups.
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

I was reacting to your description of the women paired off with you who had been abused by her dad. I felt horrified, got carried away, and when I wrote that post, I wrote as though you were the one who had the history of trauma, rather than your partner. Apologies for the confusion. I wrote as someone who has tendencies to dissociate, based on a difficult childhood. This is quite a common s
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"

the Moonies defintion of 'celibacy before marriage' has a coded meaning. The Moonie's justification for premarital celibacy is not actually based on conventional conservative Christian moral theology; it is part of a covert agenda to augment Rev Moon's power over his followers, and, eventually, if all goes well for Moon to make his definition of marriage prescriptive for ev
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

My hunch and we need more research, is that what they call 'overwhelm' is probably what the TM people call 'destressing'. And both Centerpointe/Holosynch may perhaps be similar: With the best of intentions, they prescribe exercises that happen to induce CNS disruption in vulnreable people. (Read more about this on www.trancenet.org, the info site for TM) You can read
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"

for the gurus who leave India and go to the West, to hit on spiritually naive people: 'export gurus' The term originated among scholars of Asian art who distinguished between the Asian art that was of high quality, made for Asian connoiseurs whose taste was subtle and who appreciated discreet elegance, versus the shlocky stuff made for export to the West, where any vaguely 'Asia
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

People report problems with side effects. And--they did what appears to be an peculiar lawsuit against the old, late lamented Napster (Corboy) (Report from someone who used their product. ) In Reply to: Centerpointe CDs posted by milly on November 17, 2003 at 16:08:59: [216.239.53.104] 2) Centrepoint sued Napster while it was already struggling in court with other lawsuits
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"

Go down to the other thread and you'll find a bunch of information on Centerpointe Awakening. Go to And you'll be all set. Again, to repeat Hotshot, Centerpointe Awakening is an American hybrid of TM and a marketing operation. Centrepoint is a New Zealand based personality commune that turned into a sex mess. The two are utterly different.
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"

of her 3 years as disciple of her son, Andrew Cohen. She wrote a memoir, 'The Mother of God' She describes many experiences in which she felt spacy, alienated from her surroundings. Andrew and his guru HWL Poonja assured her that these states of mind were evidence of enlightement. Significantly, these assurances did not give Tarlo any sense of empowerment or confidence. Instea
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

This person reported some worrisome side effects while practicing Centrepoint. He chose to stop doing it. Scroll down this thread and you'll find one person noting that listening to the Holosync/aka Centrepoint tapes provoked undesirable 'de-stressing' reactions. *This is the term former TM's use for the anxiety and shakes they got from TM. Another correspond
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"

TM has reportedly produced problems for many of its practioners--as well as being hard on bank accounts. For more information on this, please go to www.trancenet.org Do more research before you get involved with this set up. Among other things, go to his website and find out Bill Harris' professional credentials--if any. See too if they are current and or from reputable universities
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"

Either John Horgan or someone he interviewed spoke of 'The enlightenment industry.' The minute you take a liberating meme, a meme that is meant to wake us up by busting memes, and you commodify it, trademark it and turn it into another burdensome parasitic meme, you've 'co-opted the process for your self aggrandizement.' If a disciple does well, the guru or LGAT tak
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

(Note to readers: 'Centrepoint' was an New Zealand commune centered on a charismatic leader that turned into a sex mess. (2023 update) Horrible stories of pedophile abuse orchestrated by Centrepointe leader Bert Potter and his adult enforcers emerged after Potter's death in 2012. Many contine to defend Centrepointe and seek to minimize survivors as disbelievers. Some like to
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"

The depersonalization issues are relevant to LGATS. The question whether enlightenment is the same or different from depersonalization is a different topic, though no less important. So, I 're-shelved' my posts to a different thread on We can keep both discussions going on the different threads. Apologies for getting things mixed up. Sometimes a topic jazzes me up and
Forum: Large Group Awareness Training, "Human Potential"

Depersonalization vs Enlightenment? Hope, that article is VALUABLE. Thanks so much for printing it! Your article states that depersonalization is a common by product of Ecstacy use. You've said your psychopath tried to get you to use Ecstacy. You were already suffering from depersonalization. If you'd used Ecstacy, that would've been disastrous. It is noteworthy that man
Forum: "Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"