(This thread relates to the topic of therapy abuse; if you bear with me it will become apparent)

In recent posts, rrmoderator and easydoesit stated that they were exposed to AA during training and/or during the course of work as professionals.
This has suggested to me a new line of inquiry:

I am curious as to what is being taught these days to trainees in the fields of recovery and mental health about recovery. I have to admit I know almost nothing about this. I am not a therapist, and do not work in the mental health field, although I have some background in psychology; (I studied psychology and bio-psyche at the university level during the 70s and 80s; it was not my major, and I had took no courses related to addiction, other than the physiological aspects of the disorder.)

My knowledge may be hopelessly out of date, although I doubt it from listening to and reading the reports of other recovering addicts and alcoholics.

[b:bccfbc994d]I am addressing these questions to rrmoderator, easydoesit, and anyone else who works in the field of recovery, or whose work involves participation in programs of recovery:[/b:bccfbc994d]

During your training, was information about recovery programs limited to AA, and if so, why do you think this was the case?

If you were exposed to alternative programs to the 12 step programs, were they given a similar emphasis, or was the 12-step model emphasized?

It is important to tell us as well which years you were trained in recovery.

Was it 10 years ago, 20, or recently?

Are you aware of any changes that may have been made in recent years, or if more emphasis on a variety of treatment models is made during mental health and recovery training at the present time?

Because there is such a widespread belief among ex-12-steppers that public opinion is biased in favor of faith-based recovery, I want to find out if there is any basis to it.

I find it interesting but dismaying that I did not even [b:bccfbc994d]find out[/b:bccfbc994d] about most alternatives to AA until I came to the cult forum.
It is true that I did not devote myself to study of the subject, but people who are close to me have sought help with substance abuse problems fairly recently, and we were [b:bccfbc994d]all[/b:bccfbc994d] unaware that there were [b:bccfbc994d]any[/b:bccfbc994d] alternatives to the 12 steps at all.

I would also like to find out what type of training court and probation department officials are given in order that they can recommend recovery for their clients.

Did anyone ever actually post the 12 steps?

Here are the Twelve Steps as defined by Alcoholics Anonymous.

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

5. We're entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

6. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

7. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

8. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

9. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of

10. His will for us and the power to carry that out.

11. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

12. Other twelve-step groups have modified the twelve steps slightly from those of Alcoholics Anonymous to refer to problems other than alcoholism.

Other twelve-step groups at times may have modified the twelve steps.

[b:f5d153693f]The twelve steps above have some very confusing typos, ones that may obscure the intent of the steps.[/b:f5d153693f]
Here they stand corrected:

Quote

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol ? that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

[b:f5d153693f]I have been told by at least two people here that the worked with AA in tandem with other social services organizations.

It doesn't seem fair to me for you to say that, and then not tell us exactly what trainig for that type of work entailed, or which organizations you were exposed to.[/b:f5d153693f]

Would you please tell me when this work was done, if you received training in recovery and what kind, whether or not this training included being informed about alternatives to AA, and, if so, which ones.

[b:f5d153693f]I hate to have to base my opinions only on what I have found outside of the forum on the internet, as I have been doing, especially when I keep being told that my sources are not acceptable experts.[/b:f5d153693f]

I would really like to hear first-hand from someone who has been involved with AA through other social service programs and organizations.

[b:f5d153693f]RRmoderator, would you please elucidate?[/b:f5d153693f]

Quote

My work during the 1980s included years spent on staff at a social service agency. There were alcoholics that came to the agency for help and we sponsored a support group, to some extent based upon the 12-step model.

It was very successful and the community appreciated it.

My work also included working with Jewish prisoners that were drug addicts, alcoholics etc. Many were helped by 12-step programs.

As a staff member of Jewish Family Service in the 1980s and coordinator of its Jewish Prisoner Program for Arizona, I dealt extensively with AA.

Many of the Jewish prisoners had drinking or drug problems and went to either AA or NA as a support group.

I attended some meetings to find out what they were like anonymously and saw nothing wrong or supect.

[b:f5d153693f]During your involvement with prisons and family service did you also participate in any of the alternatives?
[/b:f5d153693f]
[b:f5d153693f]You have stated that these alternatives are available to those who object to the religious content of AA.[/b:f5d153693f]
I am attempting to ascertain whether or not this was the case in your experience, and what the time frame was.

Does you have any recent experience with referring clients os social service agencies to various forms of recovery, faith-based or otherwise.

Do you know first hand whether or not secular alternatives are more accessable at present through these agencies?

[b:f5d153693f]easydoesit, I am interested in hearing of your experience as well:[/b:f5d153693f]

Quote

I have attended many AA meetings as part of my professional training, but am by no means an expert.

I have found recent writings by professionals in the mental health field addressing these issues, and so far, that is all I have to base my opinions on.

[mentalhelp.net]

Quote

A Better Meeting
Mark Dombeck, Ph.D.
Updated: Jul 1st 2006

The question of coercion needs to be addressed. I'm thinking that this is not something that really is within AA's control (whether or not people are mandated to join them). This is a legal issue, instead. Personally, I'd like to see a whole lot more public money be put into professional treatment programs based on sound scientifically based principles, and for courts to mandate people into such programs. This isn't entirely practical, however. This money is just never made available at the level where enormous numbers of people can be helped on a daily drop-in basis, and hence AA is pushed because it is ubiquitous.
Anyway, those are my thoughts for what they are worth. I'll put the questions to you again, because I am interested in your answers to them more than my own: What would a useful alternative to AA look like? What parts of AA are useful and should be incorporated into this new alternative, and what parts need to be left behind? What reforms and innovations should be added so that the resulting program is more useful to its members?

[www.nami.org]

Quote

Providers should recognize that denial is an inherent part of the problem. Patients often do not have insight as to the seriousness and scope of the problem. Abstinence may be a goal of the program but should not be a precondition for entering treatment. If dually diagnosed clients do not fit into local Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and Narcotics Anonymous (NA) groups, special peer groups based on AA principles might be developed.

[www.law.duke.edu]

Quote


For the Warner III and O'Connor courts, the presence or absence of choice between secular and religiously-oriented self-help groups was decisive.

Therefore, a probation referral system that offered both secular and religiously-oriented rehabilitation programs to probationers might not violate the Establishment Clause if the overall system were neutral.

Many probation referral systems, however, either do not provide a secular option, or, if they do, they do not endorse it as strongly in word and deed as they support the nonsecular program (AA).

Many probation referral systems, however, either do not provide a secular option, or, if they do, they do not endorse it as strongly in word and deed as they support the nonsecular program

Quote
rrmoderator
Did anyone ever actually post the 12 steps?

Here are the Twelve Steps as defined by Alcoholics Anonymous.

Of which group :P It was not AA that introduced me to XA so I never did. These are the twelve steps I was first exposed to them.

Perhaps after reading these, you can understand where my view of XA comes from.

Quote

1. We admitted we were powerless over the Addict -- that our lives have become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people whenever possible except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

You can read the official steps, traditions, and concepts here:
[www.nar-anon.org]

I don't currently work in recovery or social services, but I am studying to do so. I can tell you that in my recovery and addiction class, we were only presented with the 12-step model, specifically AA. We were not told of alternative programs or how they operate. This information, we had to find on our own. Looking for alternatives to AA is what brought me back here, to be honest. We were expected to know the history of AA and 12-step while no time was given to alternative forms of treatment. I feet then, as I do now, that this is dangerous. Allow me to explain why that is, there is on cookie-cutter treatment for people with addictions. What works very well for one person may be a disaster for another. By only presenting us with one treatement model, they limited our ability to serve our clients and their best interests. Luckily, we were all very curious people and we found other treatment options on our own.

[b:0a42a368f1]Thanks, Indie[/b:0a42a368f1], for the [b:0a42a368f1]first-hand[/b:0a42a368f1] report.

Quote

I don't currently work in recovery or social services, but I am studying to do so. I can tell you that in my recovery and addiction class, we were only presented with the 12-step model, specifically AA. We were not told of alternative programs or how they operate. This information, we had to find on our own. Looking for alternatives to AA is what brought me back here, to be honest. We were expected to know the history of AA and 12-step while no time was given to alternative forms of treatment. I feet then, as I do now, that this is dangerous. Allow me to explain why that is, there is on cookie-cutter treatment for people with addictions. What works very well for one person may be a disaster for another. By only presenting us with one treatement model, they limited our ability to serve our clients and their best interests. Luckily, we were all very curious people and we found other treatment options on our own.

Your experience is in keeping with the course material I found from the Univ. of Oklahoma.
In what country did you go to school, by the way, if I may be so bold?

Isn't it a pity that there is such[b:0a42a368f1] animosity against diversity[/b:0a42a368f1], at least when it appears to threaten the AA [b:0a42a368f1]monopoly[/b:0a42a368f1]?

A little variety might be just the thing to "[b:0a42a368f1]help the alcoholic who still suffers[/b:0a42a368f1]".

It might have helped my relatives and friends who only got sicker in "the rooms".

Barbara,

Of course, you may be so bold. I'm studying for my Bachelor's in Social Work in the US.

What I found particularly perplexing was that they stressed that no one approach will work for evey client (true), but we were only presented with one model for addiction treatment. They also stressed that people with a dual diagnosis, addiction and an underlying mental health problem would most likely return to any addiction without treatment of the mental health issue (again, true). However, people I've known in AA were told by unskilled sponsors to not take their medications. So, the cycle continues.

I've shared some of my personal experiences previously. I left for a while to focus on school and complete my final exam in said addiction class. Minor bragging moment here, I got a 100% on the final. I'll be back with more later, I promise this time.

I have had experience in training to help people with addictions in two different venues--as a nurse, during my training in psychiatric nursing, and as a chemical dependency counselor-in-training. These were my experiences:

As a nuse, back in 1987, we were told of no other treatment for addiction than the 12 steps. In fact, we were told outright that medicine knew of no other way to treat addicts/alcoholics.

As a counselor in training, in 2004, we were exposed to many different methods in our 12 weeks class by our very open minded teacher, including methadone maintenance, antabuse, rational recovery, women for sobriety, lifering, Smart, etc and also cognitive-behavioral therapy. We were told by our instructor that it was our duty as counselors not to have preconceived notions about what works and to remember that what worked for us may not work for everyone. However, the general consensus of the class outside the classroom was that they "knew" that AA/NA was the only way to recover--the only "real" way--and that they would never ever recommend anything else to their clients. All presenters of other methods were ignored or laughed at by my classmates. It reminded me of people sticking their fingers in their ears and singing "lalalalalalalala I can't HEAR you!". AA/NA is the only recovery method I have run across that feels it is the only way and turns out jillions of devotees with the same closed minded outlook and the same slogan-spouting rhetoric.

I then went to an outpatient rehab to do my 200 hours of practicum This was a place with mostly court ordered clients, and they had a very strong 12 step bent. People were ordered to attend groups and pick up "desire chips" to bring back as proof, and if they said the religious aspect made them uncomfortable they were told to use a doorknob to pray to--but they HAD to pray to something! When it came time for them to do the fifth step where you share your sins with another (and it must include every bad thing you ever did or you will relapse for sure) they compelled their clients to pay $20 to a hippie woman named "Rainbow" that they had never met to hear their step, so that the center could be SURE they had done one. For six weeks of this outpatient "treatment" they paid $3,000. And every single person who walked in the door was judged to be addicted, whether or not they really were, so as to get the insurance money.

To whom it may concern:

Barabara was banned from this board.

It seems like there is something of an organized effort to encourage "AA is a cult" proponents and various anti-AA bashers to post here.

The same rhetoric is being posted on and on and on and those involved almost seem "cult-like" in their obsession to continue this.

If you don't like AA fine.

Perhaps it would be best to post on sites devoted exclusively to bashing AA.

But please don't come here and post "AA is a cult" over and over again.

It is repetitive, this verbiage is redundant and not really educational and it also verges on needlessly spamming this board.

Again, AA doesn't fit the criteria to be defined as a "cult" per any profile as establsihed historically for destructive cults through an understanding of groups like the Waco Davidians, Manson Family or "Heaven's Gate."

Please understand that repetitive posts about AA may not be approved here, such as posts that argue the same points endlessly, which have already been discussed on this thread ad nauseum and/or other threads regarding AA.

So if you essentially plan to post the same type of comments as previously posted by another AA basher don't be surprised if they don't come through.

Also note the rules.

If anti-AA folks break the rules they will be banned from the board.

Sorry. I didn't realize this was ann AA support forum. I won't post again--you don't have to ban me.