barabara, your post brought back many memories.

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Several children of AA members were physically abused. This was common knowledge among the club members, but no one did anything about it. I befriended the children, (and the parents), and tried to intervene on their behalf, but, once again, I had very little influence.

I did not turn anyone in to child protective services.

I was put in the situation where I knew a child was being abused. The parent admitted it! A word was never to be said to anyone that could protect that child though, because "what is said in the rooms stays in the rooms".

I still feel guilty, just because I was part of that group.

I think the title "savage therapy" is quite apt.

From what one AA member told me, and from watching the changes they went through,[b:437a1a4502] AA taught them a lot, about themself and about others[/b:437a1a4502]. They said that once they recovered from the new wounds they received in AA they were a much better person.

From what I can see, [b:437a1a4502]they are able to see their own faults clearly for the first time, and admit it when they are wrong[/b:437a1a4502].
Unfortunately, they went through a long period of feeling entirely wrong, essentially wrong, horribly wrong, and totally hopeless, primarily due to too much focus on the fourth and fifth steps, and the assurances of other AA members that they were totally screwed up, mentally ill, and that they had selfish motives for almost everything they did.

They were reassured by their sponsors that every time someone harmed them, they had a part in it.

What the big book says, if I remember correctly, is that [b:437a1a4502]fear is a "defect of character[/b:437a1a4502]".

This person eventually remembered that there was often good reason to get angry, and that you don't have to apologize to someone when they kick you.
AA sponsors had informed them that they needed to make amends to those people who had been harmful.
They told this member they would drink and die unless they made amends to everyone they were mad at.

AA "therapy", according to this account, was "kind of like to using a chain saw to remove a wart."
It got the job done, but [b:437a1a4502]it did a lot of unnecessary damage to parts that had been previously healthy[/b:437a1a4502].

This might not make a lot of sense to anyone who has never been heavily invested in "the program" of AA.
I have heard similar stories from other AA members, and read even more.

Does this sound familiar to anyone here?

Savage therapy indeed.

barabara, I will try to post more on this tomorrow. It is late and your post has set off a lot of harsh memories. It was always "my" fault. I had never worked the program well enough. I must have skipped something while doing my steps.

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She said that once she recovered from the new wounds she received in AA she was a much better person.

I believe it, I'm still recovering from my wounds.

Heck, many of us were even told we had part in the fact we were 13th stepped. "What was your part in it?" I was asked. Uh, walking in this room for a meeting?

Barbara - your last post summed it up perfectly. Beautifully executed.

The best way I can describe it is this: Bill Wilson had me in the palm of his hand, like a spider, and had a scapel in the other hand and he pooked me with it, and cut me with it, and jabbed me with it. I felt sadistically trapped on the spot whilst the dogma (the scapal) was painful. [b:4333352d41]Not all the time[/b:4333352d41], for sure. Sometiems it was great being a 12 stepper. But I just could not live with that painful mental confusion in my life. It was too much.

Arrogant, selfish brat, but not deserving of that. No way.

Alas, out of AA for a year now, and still sober.

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barabara
I think the title "savage therapy" is quite apt.

My relative, who feels that she suffered great mental anguish during AA "therapy" would love it.

My heart goes out to your relative.

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From what she told me, and from watching the changes she has gone through,[b:dee46de3fa] AA taught her a lot, about herself and about others[/b:dee46de3fa]. She said that once she recovered from the new wounds she received in AA she was a much better person.

You know, I may have to leave these threads for a while. All the wounds of mine are not healed and I am still upset after all this time. I grew up in a house where I was the scapegoat for my mother. XA told me I needed to "Find out what your part is" Huh?

My *relative* pawned her family jewels, blamed it on me, and I need to find 'my part'? Some jerk tried to rape me and I needed to find "my part"? I could go on and on but you get the message.

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From what I can see, [b:dee46de3fa]she is able to see her own faults clearly for the first time, and admit it when she is wrong[/b:dee46de3fa].

That is good to hear.

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Unfortunately, (she tells me), she went through a long period of feeling entirely wrong, essentially wrong, horribly wrong, and totally hopeless, primarily due to too much focus on the fourth and fifth steps, and the assurances of other AA members that she was totally screwed up, mentally ill, and that she had selfish motives for almost everything she did.

Same here. If I did not do my step as the sponsor/group expected me to do my step I was wrong. If I did, I was faking it. And I never made it past the first couple steps in XA because my sponsor was too busy to meet with me...and since she was a 'winner' no one would take me until she finally released me. By then, I was ready to leave and used it as an 'official' excuse.

People ask why I feel it is like a cult. If it was a normal social group, I would not have to secretly plan for weeks on how to leave without losing all my friends. I would not expect them to turn their backs on me the second I walked out the doors simply because I chose not to go to a meeting. I was treated the same way as if I had been a cult member and disfellowshipped.

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She was reassured by her sponsors that every time someone harmed her, she had a part in it.

Yeap, same here. See what I wrote above.

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She was told that she had a part in being abused as a child, in being raped (when she was young), in everything she was afraid of or resentful about.
(I realize that the big book doesn't exactly say this, but her sponsors certainly did.
What the big book says, if I remember correctly, is that [b:dee46de3fa]fear is a "defect of character[/b:dee46de3fa]".
I'm not even going to go into the things her sponsors did to cause her resentment, but they were not honest people, and they did not have her best interests in mind.)

I needed to find my part is similar circumstances. I believe my sponsors did (when they found time) have my best intersts at heart, that is what was so scary for me.

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She also remembered that there was often good reason to get angry, and that you don't have to apologize to someone when they kick you.
Her sponsors had informed her that she needed to make amends to those people who had harmed her, you see, because she "had a resentment towards them".

I am working on thinking through my anger now, knowing that my anger is not all bad. I held it in for years. In fact, when I started my experiences with XA, I was just learning that it was okay to be angry at her.

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They told her she would drink and die unless she made amends to everyone she was mad at.

I was told similar things. I would have a heart attack from all the stress and so on. Including making amends to my addict relative!

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AA "therapy", according to her accounts, was kind of like to using a chain saw to remove a wart.
It got the job done, but it did a lot of unnecessary damage to parts of her that had been previously healthy.

That is a good way to say it. I like her analogy.

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This might not make a lot of sense to anyone who has never been heavily invested in "the program" of AA.
I have heard similar stories from other AA members, and read even more.

Does this sound familiar to anyone here?

Way too familar.

Did anyone ever actually post the 12 steps?

Here are the Twelve Steps as defined by Alcoholics Anonymous.

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

5. We're entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

6. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

7. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

8. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

9. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of

10. His will for us and the power to carry that out.

11. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

12. Other twelve-step groups have modified the twelve steps slightly from those of Alcoholics Anonymous to refer to problems other than alcoholism.

Other twelve-step groups at times may have modified the twelve steps.

(Not meaning to be a stinker, just straightening out the numbers so it's clearer:)
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1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5.Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. We're entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
_________________

I haven't been to an AA meeting in a while, but their ideals stay with me. They're painfully honest to the alcoholic, without being psychotic and making absurd claims like Teen Challenge, whom I detest now and possibly forever. :evil:

[www.teenchallengeexposed.com]

MillWallJames
I'm sorry you had a bad experience with AA and I'm glad you feel you've gotten "free" as you said. Freedom is an important thing to have.
"Take what you like and leave the rest" - they say. Am I not right?
If AA isn't the route you've chosen to take, I'd suggest you leave it behind with an open heart about the people who have decided to stay. Why be angry about it? You can't change people, places, and things anyway. Right?
Good luck to you with everything.


Arizona