I am writing this to maybe get some validation for my extreme distrust and anger toward Alcoholics Anonymous. I spent two years in this fellowship, and was told that if I did not doubt my own thinking, judgement, intuition, then I would die. Its as simple as that. I was told to embrace the programs belief system in meeting after meeting, over and over – its ‘this way or jails institutions, and death’.

My old self meant nothing: sure, I was a young foolish kid when I came into AA, very arrogant and off beam, but that did not justify the ‘reshaping’ of a new self into AA dogma, night after night, week after week. I trusted the AA message, and all I got was more of the AA message and less of ‘me’. Every negative feeling was attributed to self, and every positive feeling ‘to the program’. I lost interest in my usual hobbies, interests, and friends – as the program continued to kind of take over my mind, pushing the ‘old stuff’ out. And all the time I was trusting, because of the warm sappy faces of the old timers around me giving me the ‘advice’.

AA is not self help – and if it is, it’s the most powerful on earth: it has the power to literally change your inner core. Granted, some may need this: desolate, tragic alcoholics. But not me: I was just a kid. I have always had my wits about me, and it was my wit that saved me in the end – I just one day followed my doubts and was brave enough to get free. However, I feel for others in that program whose self’s are being destroyed and rebuilt in AA’s image. I am very angry. And I don’t even know why. I know it has something to do with betrayel and trust. I trusted AA and I realised that the whole thing was built on one mans (Bill Wilson) lunatic fanaticism.

Did that make sense? Can anyone identify with these feelings after leaving AA?

Hi MillwallJames,
I came to AA when I was 22 and have been sober now for 21 years.

There is no question that the AA program IS about surrender of ones life, ones old self, ones core life motive, to God...... as we understand him or don't understand him.

For me I had a transforming spiritual experience BEFORE I ever took AA's twelve steps.

It was when I had reached a point where I despised myself, when I had violated even my own sense of morality with my friends ,family and society as the result of my selfish, drug addicted, alcoholic behavior that my EGO was crushed and a new person was born.

I was born again and did not even know it. Alls I knew was that I was for the first time in my life ready to ask for help. Three months after I got out of treatment my parents pointed out to me that I had had a complete personality change. They said that they did not even recognize me. I really didn't understand what they were talking about, in fact it's taken some years of seeking and research to understand what happened.

The person that I am now is the result of a relationship between me and my God. Alcoholics Anonymous has not given me any orthodox ways of defining God, it has allowed me to find him and define him on my own.

Religions in general spend a lot of time trying to get everyone to think the same way about God. I'm well versed on what AA literature says (and that's not always the same thing that we here in meetings) To me AA enables a great spiritual frontier like the wild, wild west where individuals can open up new vistas of spiritual possibility without the indoctrination.

Do people in AA dogmatize? sure they do! I calmly remind them that intolerance of others beliefs suggest that they have secret doubts about their own. When we are confident with our beliefs we respect and even delight in herring about the experience of others.

The journey to where I am now has taken me through times where I had placed undue dependence on sponsors where I learned that they are human and NOT GOD. I have been in one fundamentalist kind of AA group that I GREW BEYOND in my confidence in God.

There have been times when I was in the "spiritual wilderness" when my attitude became dry and similarly to my old rebellious self, refusing to take responsibility for my own happiness, my own destiny.

I feel that my dependence on God has lead me to a healthy independence.

In my role as a sponsor I feel it is my obligation to help others find their own God, to help them "be themselves." I believe in "unity not uniformity."

In AA we don't have anything else to offer other then faith in God as a solution.


Colter

Thanks for responding; you outline your bening experience within AA - and I am sure that you experience can indeed be passed on. You were two years younger than me when you went into AA - I went in at 23. I was, as you say, on my knees - but that did not justify [i:31660c9b53]a complete manipulation and change in character[/i:31660c9b53]. I was a young man who messed his life up, and I went to AA to stop drinking, and get some practical information on getting my life back together: [i:31660c9b53]I did not go to do the will of God and have a fundemental pshchic change - nor did I need one[/i:31660c9b53].

Please be aware that young, vulnerable people enter AA. People who just want to quit drinking.

Peace, MJ

MillwallJames;

[b:c2d7c7f9b5]This is precisely what I and several others have been trying to talk about.[/b:c2d7c7f9b5]
I have spoken to so many people who also had their core integrity violated in a similar manner.
[b:c2d7c7f9b5]The question is, would you willingly turn your psyche over to a group of untrained, unskilled, and potentially unethical would-be therapists, if you knew what you were getting yourself into?[/b:c2d7c7f9b5]

That's why I suggested this as a prelude to meetings:

*Welcome to Alcoholics anonymous! Our organization has recently become aware of abuses of the program committed by some of those professing to be AA members, and we want to do everything in our power to prevent newcomers from being harmed by others in the program.
*Although we are an organization of men and women coming together for the purpose of helping each other stay sober, there may be those in these rooms who do not have that goal foremost in mind.
*We urge the newcomer to remember this at all times, and exercise the same caution with AA members who are strangers that he or she would in any other social setting.
*Although we do rely on God for our strength and sobriety, we cannot expect him to guard us at all times from harm from our fellow man.
*There may be other members who would attempt to exploit us, for money, sex, or other reasons. There may be some who are not here voluntarily, but have been ordered to attend meetings by their families or the courts. Some people may resent being here, and may not be dedicated to sobriety.
*Although we make a pledge to remain anonymous, we are nevertheless human, and we cannot expect others to always honor our anonymity. It is strongly suggested that you exercise care in choosing friends and confidants in AA, as you would in other social settings.
*We will do our best to help the newcomer find a safe and secure place in our organization, as our sobriety, and, more importantly, the sobriety of the newcomer, depends on it. Our primary goal is to help the alcoholic who still suffers, and we will do our best to see that he or she does not suffer at the hands of those who claim to be here to help him.
*If another AA member does manage to take advantage of you, please remember that anyone can be fooled at times, and that it is not necessarily your fault.
*You were not necessarily "asking for it". Good and bad things happen to all people, whether they be wise or naive, kind or unkind.
*Most of the people you meet here will be on your side.
*A few may not be.
*Choose carefully, and take your time.
*Ultimately, it is up to the individual to protect him or herself.
*Please remember to exercise caution.

[b:c2d7c7f9b5]I probably should have added a disclaimer to the effect that:

We are not here to help you with any mental health issues. Please contact a professional for these matters.
None of our members are working here as trained professionals in mental health .
Our sole purpose is to help you achieve sobriety through an appeal to God.[/color:c2d7c7f9b5]
Please be extremely careful about revealing any emotional vulnerabiloities to other AA members, and be very selective about what advice you choose to follow.
We have noticed a trend among some members to pychoanalyze and attempt to practice psychological treatment on newcomers.[/color:c2d7c7f9b5]
This is not our purpose in any way, and we do not condone or recommend these practices.
However, once again, it is up to you to protect yourself.
Please be very careful[/b:c2d7c7f9b5]

The problem is, too many of the AA hard core (and possibly the organization itself) are too interested in preserving an image of inviolable perfection to address protection of the newcomer in any proactive way. (They did write a memo about the 13th step and send it to various groups.)

[b:c2d7c7f9b5]And, AA is[/color:c2d7c7f9b5] a thought reform program. [/b:c2d7c7f9b5]That's how the changes in personality are wrought. The use of admonishments to "forget everything you know", "surrender to God", and "make the AA group your higher power", are only some of the techniques used to increase your vulnerability in order to implant a new AA reality.

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Please be aware that young, vulnerable people enter AA. People who just want to quit drinking.

Right!
You may have noticed that the people who love and defend AA are the ones who have submitted to all of the thought reform processes the program has to offer, not just sobriety.

[b:c2d7c7f9b5]The ones who say things like, "my brain needed washing" usually love AA.
[/b:c2d7c7f9b5]
The people who have left AA or do not like it are the ones who just can't submit to another world view than their own. They're the ones who don't have it in them to be brainwashed.

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MillwallJames
Thanks for responding; you outline your bening experience within AA - and I am sure that you experience can indeed be passed on. You were two years younger than me when you went into AA - I went in at 23. I was, as you say, on my knees - but that did not justify [i:49f356c8ab]a complete manipulation and change in character[/i:49f356c8ab]. I was a young man who messed his life up, and I went to AA to stop drinking, and get some practical information on getting my life back together: [i:49f356c8ab][b:49f356c8ab]I did not go to do the will of God and have a fundemental pshchic change - nor did I need one[/b:49f356c8ab][/i:49f356c8ab].
Please be aware that young, vulnerable people enter AA. People who just want to quit drinking.
Peace, MJ

I understand what your saying MillwallJames, it may be that you are not an alcoholic and don't belong in AA. It's rare that someone voluntarily goes to AA because they are not good at being a social drinker, in fact it never occurs to a social drinker that he or she has a drinking problem.

The problem is that if a problem drinker or alcoholic goes to AA then what they will discover with AA is that drinking is not what is wrong with alcoholics, rather drinking is a symptom. If someone just wants to stop drinking and not look at what the problem really is then AA will only annoy you, you will feel quite uncomfortable in AA with the discussion of the spiritual life going on all around you.

Problem drinkers as a rule will not be receptive to AA's simple program until they become thoroughly dissatisfied with themselves.
For what it's worth I think it perfectly OK to not go to AA, not think about AA etc. all without any guilt whatsoever. If you are a real alcoholic and become dissatisfied with your life then AA will be there for you.

Colter

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Problem drinkers as a rule will not be receptive to AA's simple program until they become thoroughly dissatisfied with themselves.

by colter

That's one I haven't heard used as a reason for why someone would suffer psychic distress in AA;
"You're not really an alcoholic".

I have heard "maybe you're not an alcoholic" used along with "go back out and drink some more", and "come back when you're ready", but I never heard it implied in meetings or the "big book" that non-alcoholics would suffer psychological distress if they attempted AA.

Maybe that's what happened to the thousands who claim abuse and psychic suffering from going to AA; they weren't really alcoholics.
(Note the irony of that statement.)
[b:7d223d098c]Note as well how the blame is put back on the AA member claiming to be distressed[/b:7d223d098c];

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The problem is that if a problem drinker or alcoholic goes to AA then what they will discover with AA is that drinking is not what is wrong with alcoholics, rather drinking is a symptom. If someone just wants to stop drinking and not look at what the problem really is then AA will only annoy you

I guess they have an answer for everything, and it's never AA's fault.

Unfortunately, like all AA responses, it's too clichéd, too pat, too much of a "stop-think", or maybe "stop-investigation" phrase.

I know no AA sponsor or old timer ever told anyone I know that they should quit meetings and seek help elsewhere.
They were always told, instead, "Get a sponsor", or "get a [b:7d223d098c]new[/b:7d223d098c] sponsor", or "you haven't done your fifth step". or "you're not working the steps", or "maybe you're not ready to work the steps".

I always thought they were being sarcastic when they said "go back out and drink some more" and "you haven't suffered enough".

Maybe another disclaimer ahould be added to my list, which is rapidly becoming a new AA pamphlet titled perhaps, "[b:7d223d098c]A warning for the newcomer to AA[/b:7d223d098c]";
"If you are not an alcoholic, you will experience severe distress and possibly psychological problems if you attempt the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. Please do not attempt the steps unless you are certain that you are a hopeless alcoholic".

What exactly is alcoholism?
[www.wrongdiagnosis.com]

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Alcoholism is the physical and mental addiction to alcohol. Prolonged abuse of alcohol caused both physical and mental conditions, and there are also various social implications from associated behaviors.

Alcoholics Anonymous claims that alcoholism is a symptom of a spiritual disorder, and that alcoholics share characteristics such as immaturity, selfishness, and a need for control.
Yet many researchers and medical professionals are of the opinion that Alcoholism is caused by (surprise!!!) excessive consumption of alcohol.
[www.wrongdiagnosis.com]

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Other conditions that might have Alcoholism as a complication may, potentially, be an underlying cause of Alcoholism. Our database lists the following as having Alcoholism as a complication of that condition:
• Alcohol abuse

Alcohol might also be used by some people to alleviate symptoms of other psychiatric disorders;

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In some cases alcoholism may actually be a symptom of an underlying condition such as depression or schizophrenia.

I have never heard of any professional psychiatric treatment that uses shaming, self-criticism, and continuous moral inventory to treat these two disorders.

Whatever the cause, the results of excessive alcohol consumption are the same;
[www.aona.co.uk]

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Alcohol damages cognitive functioning and has detrimental effects on mental health. Recent research in the USA suggests that binge drinking may cause immediate and irreparable brain damage, particularly to the frontal cortex of the brain. [b:f20ec8efd9]This is the part responsible for judgement and decision-making[/b:f20ec8efd9].

[alcalc.oxfordjournals.org]

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There are wide ranging effects of alcohol on the nervous system. Some interfere with physiological and neurochemical functions but ultimately structural damage occurs. [b:f20ec8efd9]During life one of the most impressive changes is brain shrinkage which can be visualized using neuroradiological imaging techniques. [/b:f20ec8efd9]This shrinkage seems to relate to a loss of white matter.In addition, the cerebellum appears to be vulnerable in alcoholic patients although it may well be that associated nutritional deficiencies play an important role. The Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome is another important deficiency disorder which is seen most frequently in alcoholic patients.

Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome includes memory loss which leads someone with the disease to invent stories to account for time periods they have no memory of, among other things.

[b:f20ec8efd9]So, alcohol use leads to measurable, possibly irreversable loss of brain matter, particularly those areas of the brain related to judgement and decision making.[/b:f20ec8efd9]

Alcohol also suppresses those areas of the brain whose purpose is inhibition of impulse and action; it suppresses inhibition.
A person under the influence of alcohol tends to do things they normally would be too inhibited to do, like lie, steal, cheat, be abusive to others, have uninhibited sex.
In general, they might act in ways that they might be prevented to when not under the influence because of moral and ethical convictions.

[b:f20ec8efd9]So perhaps it is not because they have an underlying moral deficiency that alcoholics behave in immature and immoral ways, but because alcohol use causes these behaviors and kills off portions of their brain and makes them stupid[/b:f20ec8efd9]?

Perhaps the real value of all types of treatment is not the moral inventory at all, but the cessation of alcohol use and the subsequent regeneration of nervous tissue, and the restoration of the alcoholic's prior moral and ethical framework?

In this case, continual focus on the alcoholic's imagined "defects of character" would be of dubious value, as it is unlikely that they had more than the average person in the first place.

"The steps" might, at best, serve to indelibly imprint into his psyche the damaging effects alcohol consumption had on the alcoholic and his loved ones, and give him more incentive to stop drinking.

If this is indeed the case, the spiritual aspects of the "moral inventory" would be potentially damaging, if the alcoholic was inclined to take statements about their underlying moral inadequacies too much to heart.

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MillwallJames
I am writing this to maybe get some validation for my extreme distrust and anger toward Alcoholics Anonymous. I spent two years in this fellowship, and was told that if I did not doubt my own thinking, judgement, intuition, then I would die. Its as simple as that. I was told to embrace the programs belief system in meeting after meeting, over and over – its ‘this way or jails institutions, and death’.

Ah, the old death threat.

Quote

My old self meant nothing: sure, I was a young foolish kid when I came into AA, very arrogant and off beam, but that did not justify the ‘reshaping’ of a new self into AA dogma, night after night, week after week. I trusted the AA message, and all I got was more of the AA message and less of ‘me’. Every negative feeling was attributed to self, and every positive feeling ‘to the program’. I lost interest in my usual hobbies, interests, and friends – as the program continued to kind of take over my mind, pushing the ‘old stuff’ out. And all the time I was trusting, because of the warm sappy faces of the old timers around me giving me the ‘advice’.

....
Did that make sense? Can anyone identify with these feelings after leaving AA?

Not leaving AA but leaving a 12 step group,yes. The program tried to control my life. I had a parent who used and I was there originally to get help with that. I started to lose "me" in the program, and became part of "them". Unless, of course, I did something "wrong". Then it was me, me, me.

Does that make sense to you?

This is bringing back to me memories of the children I got to know through AA meetings.
As in many of the cults listed on this forum as such, the children seemed to suffer unnecessarily from the actions of their parents.

In the case of Alcoholics and addicts, they would probably not have been better off if their parents had not gone to meetings.
Nevertheless, I have a lot of sympathy for the children of some AA members.

At the risk of being "raked over the coals" for this, I am going to add my experiences.

[b:827995c6ed]I knew several AA underage children of AA members who were taken advantage of sexually by older AA members[/b:827995c6ed]. The older children, (with only one exception), did not view themselves as victims; rather, they were proud of their relations with the older member. Most of these 11 to 17 year old AA "members" had irresponsible parents in the program, and most of them were still being abused and neglected by those parents.

I did step in and attempt to prevent the adolescents from being taken advantage of, but I had very little influence. On one occasion, I was berated by the older member and told to keep my nose out of his business. He "threw the big book" at me, and told me to "take my own inventory".
He told me I was going to get [b:827995c6ed]him[/b:827995c6ed] into trouble by my attempts to intervene.
(My own AA friends approved of my intervention, but did not want to get involved.)
Other AA members knew of this "romance"; there was a lot of gossip about it, but[b:827995c6ed] no one but I did anything to try to stop it[/b:827995c6ed]. The men certainly did not step in.
(The girl I am speaking of was 13, the man at least 35 years old. She got pregnant, and is now a single mother with several children.)

This was not that uncommon among AA members in my area.

Several children of AA members were physically abused. This was common knowledge among the club members, but [b:827995c6ed]no one did anything about it[/b:827995c6ed]. I befriended the children, (and the parents), and tried to intervene on their behalf, but, once again, I had very little influence.

I did not turn anyone in to child protective services. I don't have a good excuse for this. I think my belief that often times children who are removed by social service agencies only suffer even more abuse in foster care had something to do with it.
The fact that I seemed to be the only one concerned for their welfare was a factor.
I doubted my own judgement.
I also did not want to risk the disapproval of the group.

Very few of the children I met at meetings seem to lead healthy and productive lives. Many of them are bitter about their parent's involvement in AA, but most have gone on to be "in and out of the program" as well. All of these children I know are active abusers of alcohol and other substances.

If I am making a point here, it is that however they may have fared had their parents not gone to AA, parental involvement in the 12 steps seemed to do them no good, and possibly a lot of harm. By being at meetings, they were exposed to people of questionable character [b:827995c6ed]who were trusted by their parents[/b:827995c6ed]. These neglegent and abusive parents had the approval of a supposedly "positive" peer group, and [b:827995c6ed]could rationalize to themselves and others that they were trying to become better people[/b:827995c6ed].

IMO, the fact that their parents were AA members seemed to somehow excuse the abuse of their children, and alleviate the guilt they might otherwise have had about it.

It seems, (to me at least), that often AA membership is used more to provide a facade of respectability than as an agent for actual positive change.

Is AA to blame for any of this?
I don't know.
I do know that the organization of Alcoholics Anonymous and the other AA members did nothing to stop it.

Makes perfect sense to me, Dwest. It's essentially what I experienced as well. We were told numerous times that if we didn't go to meetings, it was our fault if our dad used again. Keep in mind, we ranged in age from 15 to 5 at the time. That's a lot of pressure to put on kids.

The sexual predator bit, I know all too well. My dad used to bring these men home to leer at us. Now, I need to say that I was never sexually abused by any of my dad's AA buddies, but there's something horribly wrong with a 40 year old man looking at a 15 year old girl the way these men looked at me. At the time, I think my father would have been very happy had I accepted their advances.

I've written a great deal about it in my blog recently and I've gotten responses from people like us who have suffered as a result. Some made their responses in private to avoid the public evisceration that almost always comes along with being critical of AA. Personally, I think it's sad that people are afraid to speak up about the bad things that happen.