I read in Cults in our Midst that it's common for people recovering from cults to distrust groups and people, depending on their experiences. It also happens that some people who leave cults end up in another one.

I've gotten to the point where I don't like engaging in conversations with people, because I don't trust what I'll end up saying and what my conversation partner might use to lure me into something I'm not into. Not that I think everyone I'm talking to has some ulterior motive now, but I just don't want to put myself in a situation where I reveal too much about myself. I always end up doing so, however, because if someone asks me a question, I tend to give an honest and complete answer.

I also don't like getting involved with a group of friends, because I want to avoid group pressure to think in any particular way.

How do you get to know someone well enough to know they don't have an ulterior motive? How do you keep yourself from sharing too much without seeming uptight? How do you deal with social groups without seeming aloof or rude but without getting overly involved?

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amely
I read in Cults in our Midst that it's common for people recovering from cults to distrust groups and people, depending on their experiences. It also happens that some people who leave cults end up in another one.

I've gotten to the point where I don't like engaging in conversations with people, because I don't trust what I'll end up saying and what my conversation partner might use to lure me into something I'm not into. Not that I think everyone I'm talking to has some ulterior motive now, but I just don't want to put myself in a situation where I reveal too much about myself. I always end up doing so, however, because if someone asks me a question, I tend to give an honest and complete answer.

I also don't like getting involved with a group of friends, because I want to avoid group pressure to think in any particular way.

How do you get to know someone well enough to know they don't have an ulterior motive? How do you keep yourself from sharing too much without seeming uptight? How do you deal with social groups without seeming aloof or rude but without getting overly involved?

I hear what you're saying amely. More than once under different circumstances I've been too trusting or too honest. I too have wanted to avoid ALL of humanity simply because of the betrayal of people I trusted, who had been sucked into a cult or a group similar to one. To not be manipulated, I have found it helpful to come to know myself thoroughly, and to know where my strengths and vulnerabilities are. Also, I am not willing to bend even the slightest bit, just to entertain another's supposed beliefs and values.

I don't mean that as in being a narrow minded bigot, I mean it as in know yourself intimately, trust yourself, and no matter how difficult it gets, be true to what your common sense and your conscience are screaming at you. For me, it came down to drawing a line that serves as my boundary marker. That is where some may perceive me as being 'uptight', but that is ok, because when a person doesn't seem uptight, they are perceived to be an easier target.

It can be hard to spot a conman or woman, nor can we always detect that the person speaking to us is actually in a cult, but we can always depend on what we know to be right and wrong. Personally, I made a decision about what I am, and what I am NOT, open to. IMO, once you know who you are, what you want, what you believe in, what you trust in, and what you don't trust in, it is hard for even the slickest con-artist to penetrate your defenses. Anytime I've been sucked in by a con, it was because I had the very opening they required to successfully con me..I've learned the hard way that the thing they have most difficulty overcoming, or finding hooks in, are in strong & unwavering convictions about certain matters.

I might be short changing myself in the convictions I've chosen to stand by, no matter what, but at least its me doing the short changing, and not the gurus or their minions.

That is just my approach to anyone who attempts a congame on me today. I happen to have some very old fashioned values, many which are Christian values, and some personal convictions that are just as 'old', and they are truly the only thing that keeps me from getting sucked in today. When I didn't know who I was, what I wanted, or what I believed in, I was always getting conned by people--it is a miracle that I did not end up in killer cult/LGAT/illegal organization.

IMO, we can all be conned, and I accept that about myself, but I refuse to let the con-artists of the world steal my willingness or ability to trust, or the freedom to just be who I am. There was a time I couldn't be in the same room with a con without cringing back in fear of them taking advantage of me. Also, I have found that there is a huge 'up-side' to having been conned a few times, I've learned to recognize that the conmen/women all have a basic generic approach, and even emit the same 'vibe' if you will, when they are running their game. Of course, most have a different line, different angle, or a different expectation, but it seems that as long as they are working you, they all have the same appearance and sound. Even those that have no idea they are conning you, like people in Landmark for instance, most lekkies don't really understand that they are conning the people they are attempting to recruit..they just do it because that's what they know to do.

Anyway, this is just my personal approach and opinion. I hope you find the answers you're looking for, and I hope your negative experiences won't steal your joy and trust in others forever.

Hi Amely,

I too recently recognized the huge change in myself post-cult-years. I too find that I don't trust people and really not groups, of any kind. I tend to try not to reveal too much about myself, or reveal very specific things about myself and thus control any disclosures. I cannot ever trust a religious group, or really any kind of zealot-ous group (some are religious, some political, some are marketing/sales/pyramid groups and others are self-help groups). Any group that, at its core, spurs on zealot-like behavior, emotional connection without rational thought processes and introspection immediately scare me off. My personal relationships have suffered greatly for years and only recently am I realizing my part in it, my withdrawal and fear of intimacy. I don't yet know the road to change or recovery from this but think that finally recognizing it has got to be a helpful step in the process.

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ON2 LF
I've learned to recognize that the conmen/women all have a basic generic approach, and even emit the same 'vibe' if you will, when they are running their game. Of course, most have a different line, different angle, or a different expectation, but it seems that as long as they are working you, they all have the same appearance and sound.

Any tips on recognizing that? I've heard that some groups have a "script" of asking questions that elicit info from you without your realizing it. Just wondering if there's a way to recognize the questions, or types of questions, and the angle.

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amely

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ON2 LF
I've learned to recognize that the conmen/women all have a basic generic approach, and even emit the same 'vibe' if you will, when they are running their game. Of course, most have a different line, different angle, or a different expectation, but it seems that as long as they are working you, they all have the same appearance and sound.

Any tips on recognizing that? I've heard that some groups have a "script" of asking questions that elicit info from you without your realizing it. Just wondering if there's a way to recognize the questions, or types of questions, and the angle.

red flags to me is when the person is a bit too zealous about something they are telling me about, or when they attempt to cross personal boundaries with questions, comments, or suggestions way too soon, in what is supposed to be just a casual chat between acquaintances. IMO, body language is the surest way to spot a con that is conscious of what they're doing. Body language never lies, nor do the micro expressions you see on a person's face as they are talking. The difficulty is spotting an angle when its coming from someone who has no idea that they are nothing more than some guru's pawn. The person that believes wholeheartedly what they're saying about whatever group or 'cause' they are involved in, and its usually someone you already know, and possibly trust. Some do have a script..Landmark recruiters have a similar script. They are possibly the ones for whom it has been stated that people are not recruited through a message, but by a method. I trusted a friend wholeheartedly once while she was attempting to recruit me for Landmark, but she had no scripted answers to recite when I asked her questions about what kind of faith system underpins Landmark. My faith is important to me, and its always a first consideration when it comes to participating in something that requires my trust or faith. My friend's inability to answer my questions simply prompted me to begin researching this 'miracle' organization, and I am glad I have a fairly closed attitude about certain issues, because in that instance my 'narrow-mindedness' saved me a whole lot of heartache.

Its hard to specifically point out all the signs to warn you of impending danger, I can only tell you what behaviors or sales pitches alert me. I listen always, but I'm always listening or watching for what isn't being said. I don't really like that I do that all the time, but I'm learning to listen to both the spoken and unspoken messages, without being too cynical or paranoid. Not everyone has an ulterior motive for what they say or do.

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ON2LF said:
because when a person doesn't seem uptight, they are perceived to be an easier target.

I've seen some truth in this, at least given the circumstances of the town I have been living in.

I've been burned and am still struggling with after effects. In fairness, I was affected by some stuff in my family of origin that 'primed the pump' for my later involvement in a cultic relationship.

Where I live, there is a high density of people who are 'on the make.' First, there are a lot of off beat groups that tend to prosyletize. Not all are cults. But their members, good hearted as they are, find it necessary to recruit. They're not content to just enjoy what they have found.

There are also a lot of people on the make for other things.

So we have panhandlers for drug and alcohol funds, panhandlers for political ideologies, panhandlers for churches, panhandlers for gurus.

Its much more subtle when the panhandling is done slowly and gradually via what seem like genuine friendships or in a workplace, but that too can reveal a panhandling set up.

The upshot is, in some parts of town, especially where tourists come through, it is nearly impossible to stop, stand still and just contemplate a scene without someone coming over and trying to get something.

One lovely morning, I stopped to enjoy some flowers that someone had generously planted in a front yard.

A sweet young girl came over, we both looked at the multicolored display of blossoms, then she said, 'You seem like a very open person. Do you believe in Jesus?'

I was already enjoying God's handiwork--no further words were necessary. It was all I could do to remain polite, but I had to make it clear I was already in tune with creation and didnt need any Bible chat or a church to go to.

In yet another instance, there's a Himalayan Tibetan themed event that takes place annually. Ive been there about 5 successive years and the Amma/hugging guru people always have a booth.

Each time I walked by, they'd look at me and other passersby with a kind of hungry gaze, like dogs hoping to get scraps from a butcher. One tried hard to ask me if I wanted to learn more about Amma.

'I am already taken care of' I said very firmly--and I kept walking. If you stand still, its much harder to escape.

Seemed to me if people were actually being fed and nurtured deeply by whatever spiritual project they're in, they wouldnt give out this sort of hungry vibe--and wouldnt have such a need to recruit.

Some time back, I went to visit Saint Paul, Minnesota. I went downtown
and discovered I was in a very different part of the world.

People looked me in the eye, said hello--and they did not want anything.

It took several days to adjust to the difference.

And Ive found I have to be a bit 'on guard'--and very often question when I am doing this appropriately, and when taking it to extremes that are not so good.

For example, when walking by myself after dark, I do not respond if someone asks what time it is. If someone really needs to know the time, they can glance inside and read the digital read out in our city bus shelters, glance into a window and look at a clock. So after dark, I maintain more interpersonal distance than during the day--especially when by myself.

I think the lesson here is that genuine, agenda-free human connection and especially intimacy, requires not just effort, but time, and like good cooking, it cannot be rushed.

So if someone seems to be pushing too hard and too fast to get to know you, you have a right to question what is going on, especially if at body level, you have a feeling of misgiving.

It is quite easy to confuse the mind.But body knowledge, especially the gut, is far more reliable.

*My first clue sometimes comes when I get a sense that a person's non personal vibe, or their verbal approach seems 'sticky'--like fly paper.

Some people tend to stand just a bit too close.

Anyone who tries to get you to feel ashamed of insisting on boundaries or tries to get you to feel shame or guilt, or that you have to prove something to them, or tries to make you feel a sense of urgency or off balance--be alert.

If someone is just plain pushy or rude, dont put up with it.

Also...(this is subtle, but I think we have all 'been there') be alert if you are in a conversation and its going on too long. The kind of conversation where, you feel 'I want to end this and I am still here talking with this person despite not wanting to talk with this person.'

Get out. Last time I was in such a conversation, the person felt entitled to actually (we were total strangers) ask me how much rent I paid for my place, did I live there by myself or with someone else.

(It can be very suprising what some people feel entitled to ask about.)

I'd already had a feeling the conversation had gone on too long, and when the guy took this sort of intrusive line of questioning, I said, laughingly but very firmly, 'Hey that's really none of your business' --- and got out of there.

But this fellow was clumsy. Other people are way more slick.

Two, be very careful about making an important decision when off balance and vulnerable. This happens to all of us at one time or another--changing jobs, illness, tension at home.

Finally, and I learned this the hard way, do not assume that someone is
adult, 'has their shit together' and is more capable than you are, merely because they have a professional degree.

I knew someone who presented as highly capable, and I assumed the person had his/her act together because the person was a health care professional and had many more years of practice in the spiritual tradition I was in.

Turned out X's life was in utter chaos and by the time I figured this out, I was entangled and it took a long time and a lot of anguish to get free.

Never disown your gut instincts, even if they seem nutty. Best thing I heard was from a psychology professor who said, 'If you have survived to the age of 21, you have gut intelligence and its reliable. If you didnt have it
and it were not reliable, you'd not have survived to age 21.'

Dunno if any of this helps. Connecting with people in person is hard to re-learn after one has been through freaky experiences in disordered relationships, families, and dysfunctional spiritual/human potential projects.

And the sad fact is, there is a subsection of person who will read your open-ness to human connection as a sign to move in and try to get something from you. Now that so many folks are glued to lap tops, cell phones and iPods in public, those who dont go around as human fortresses
buffered by gadgets, stand out and may attract a special degree of attention.

Stay open to life, but respect your own integrity and dont permit yourself to be used.

A person who pays attention, who isnt hooked to an 'earworm' or hunched over on a cell phone is like a lovely and rare orchid.

Let people approach but in a human way, not to use you as an object. Being present to your life doesnt mean people are entitled entitled to see you as an object to be collected and added to some guru's menagerie.

Feel free to stay rooted and if necessary, walk away or stand your grouned, roots in the soil of your own true nature and set boundaries.


As in, 'I am already happy and dont need anything else.'

Final note, learned the very hard way:

If someone is very, very charming--dare to ask 'Why is so and so not content just to be human. Why is he or she putting out this kind of effort?'

Ive never regretted asking this question.

And when dealing with a charmer, its great fun to ask, privately, 'How would this person behave if told 'No'? And.. how might this person behave in private, toward his or her family--or subordinates?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2008 10:27PM by corboy.

Dear Amley, you'd said, "I just don't want to put myself in a situation where I reveal too much about myself. I always end up doing so, however, because if someone asks me a question, I tend to give an honest and complete answer. "

This may sound tough, but the only people you owe honest and complete answers to are your health care providers and the IRS.

The key word is 'complete'. I think in most situations, we can be honest, but without having to reveal unnecessarily intimate material about ourselves.

For example, whether you live with others or by yourself, how much or little rent you pay, how much money you have or do not have--that is your own business.

If you have a medical condition, you are not obligated to tell anyone unless it is something that could affect your ability to work safetly. One of my uncles had Type 1 diabetes for 45 years. He was highly conscientious with his health care, didnt tell everyone in the city about it, but he did tell his co-workers, because he was a house building and carpenter, and if they
saw him acting a bit 'off' they knew to remind him to eat something so his blood sugar would not drop.

That's the complicated thing--be honest, but figure out that not everyone needs to know everything about you, either.

And...if we do feel this obligation to tell strangers things about ourselves that said strangers do NOT need to know, yes, there are certain people who pick up that vibe and will see it as an opening.

My mother used to get drunk and would barrage me with nasty questions. To fend her off, I had to figure out answers to her questions. If I did not, she'd yell.

So this left me feeling obligated to answer questions--even from people who were being obnoxious. (It never at any time occurred to me to say, 'Mom, I dont like it when youre drunk, I am out of here.')

Again, the only people who are entitled to full complete disclosure are professionals you consult, and the IRS.

corboy, I truly admire, and sometimes envy your ability to speak/write how you think..nothing gets lost in the translation :)

where you say, "If someone is very, very charming--dare to ask 'Why is so and so not content just to be human. Why is he or she putting out this kind of effort?", I believe that it is just a natural human thing to say, do, or put effort into something, always and foremost for the sole purpose of fulfilling a need. We work to fill a need for money, we eat to fill a need for energy, and I think some people are very, very charming, just because they are naturally, but those people are so rare and so precious that it is fair to ask what need most overly charming people are attempting to fill.

I was in a conversation with a counseling instructor once where I was basically just slamming the type of people that lie and manipulate their way through any given situation in life..social or otherwise, and she shut me up with a simple question, one that I would have never thought applied justly to lying, deceitful, and self-absorbed people. Her question was, "what need are they are wanting to have met when they behave that way?" At first, I thought 'who the hell cares!' Then it hit me later, and I realized that every single person works to have their needs met, every single day. I haven't judged any person in the same way since, because its the truth. We all do what we do, when we do it, to meet a need of some kind. I have found it much easier to 'read' the harder to figure out people by asking myself that question. Then I ask myself, do I have to give what he/she wants from me? Do I have the right to allow myself to be put in a position where I'm supposed to be their 'need' dealer? Very often, the answer I come up with is, no.

When a person needs acceptance, honesty, kindness, or even forgiveness in some cases, then I am willing to accept, be kind, be honest, and forgive, but I will NOT meet another's need to be revered, 'followed around' by whichever underling they can draw (which is often what people with an ulterior agenda want), or to have someone agree with every word or notion that comes out of them. I especially will NOT place myself, or allow another to place me, in a position where I am going to be someone to meet their need to deceive others for whatever 'good' cause or reason they're trying to get my support for. That stance is basic to my overall approach in most encounters I have with people today, and it seems to work. I know what to do when my personal guiding principle is about to get violated, and I do it without hesitation. I have patience, because I still believe in people, but I've learned to be patient with both eyes and ears open. I think, the bottom line is, when you hear an ambiguous line or an angle, and its something new, or old, its time to slam the doors of communication and walk away. Walk away without any regrets that you might miss out on something. If none of the above is going to work for me, chances are my intense disliking for ambiguity will.

Amely,
it ha been hard figuring this stuff out, and only want to talk about what works for me as everyone ends up doing it a bit differently. With groups, as a friend recently commented, any time a group of people are all agreeing with each other completely, than can be a real trigger for he ( and me) to avoid them.
Even in on line discussions, I will fade out if it seems that only "yes men" are welcome.
And I will probably never be really comfortable in most groups: but the price of being free to think for myself is worth it.
When looking at a group of people, i find it helpful to look for what is behind the curtain.Who is sitting talking words of wisdom..and who is washing the dishes? Is there someone it is ok for everyone to pick on? Work on the basis that people are capable of treating you as badly as they treat whoever is on the bottom of the ladder.
And thre is the game played in some social groups: "you are are almost good enough, but not quite.." Had a friend who was suffering thrugh people playing such games.It was great when she was finally able to walk away.
Also, I generally get turned off now by the "guru " approach.As soon as a person talks about someone else with that wonderful shiny hero worship in ther eyes, I listen politely ( and often compassionately,because I know what it is like to be a true believer), maybe throw in some polite questions to make them think,and then..walk away.