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rrmoderator
LJMcB:

Please point me to a place where a well-known and credible cult expert has said "AA is a cult."

Someone who has lectured specifically on the topic of cults and/or has been qualified and accepted as a court expert witness.

It does matter what you call AA.

Please don't attempt to apply a label that isn't accurate. It doesn't serve the purporse of meaningful discussion here.

That is, if you want meaningful discussion.

If you feel that "it's a detrimental organization" that would be something to discuss and explain your views about.

But please leave the word "cult" out.

There is no basis to reasonably apply that word to AA objectively.

There is a great book titled "AA: Cult or Cure" by Charles Bufe (Who I am not generally a fan of). It determines that although AA is not a Cult, it does have cult like aspects. Very interesting reading. Albert Ellis wrote an introduction in it, which shows you right off the author has an anti-AA slant.

Charles Bufe is not a cult expert.

He appears to be an ex-AA participant turned anti-AA crusader.

Bufe also wrote "The Heretics Handbook."

Yes. He has no history as cult watcher, but rather as an AA critic.

With so many ex-AA crusaders, willing to put so much time and effort into exposing what happened to them in AA and advocating for more variety in rehab choices, the refusal of many people to even entertain the possibility that there might be something amiss in the 12 step model seems unbelievably stubborn.

God knows I've researched and posted enough links, articles, and expert opinions about AA to fill a good-sized textbook.

Why is there such vehement insistance that AA is all anyone needs, and the constant refrain of "he/she is an ex 12-stepper with a grudge against AA" so popular among so many people who aren't members or ex-members?

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There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance – that principle is contempt prior to investigation.

Herbert Spencer

We've investigated; have you?

barabara:

Given the size, history and extent of AA the numbers of anti-AA crusaders and critics is acutally relatively small.

And as said repeatedly I have not received complaints to warrant concern.

For example, I receive constant complaints about Scientology, Landmark Education and other groups from concerned families.

But not similar complaints about AA, despite the fact that AA probably affects more families.

Yes, that may be true, but I asked, several times, a number of simple and relatively innocuous questions that have yet to be answered.
Is there any reason for not telling us about exposure to recovery models during training?

You did say that there are more than 1, (1 being the 12 steps), available.

We have said that they were not made available to us when we needed a recovery program. We weren't even told there were alternatives.

Would you please tell us about your training in recovery, and whether or not equal, or even any, time was devoted to programs other than the faith-based 12 step programs?

barabara:

I am not trained, nor did I say that I was trained regarding recovery from alcoholism or general substance abuse.

I did point out that the social service agency that I worked for cooperated with 12-step programs without incident or complaints. The agency staff included trained professionals familiar with recovery programs and various models for recovery.

It was a large staff.

What is your point?

My point is that AA is neither a "cult" nor "cult-like" and does not "brainwash" participants.

I have not received complaints from families to demonstrate otherwise.

My point?
My point is that I am trying to find out whether or not your statement that a variety of recovery models are available to those seeking help is true.

I have posted many articles and links that point to a great deal of evidence that [b:4030ac606a]our publicly-funded mental health organizations, the court system, and possibly schools overwhelmingly focus oin the 12 steps to the exclusion of other available methods.
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AA does not work for everybody; regardless of the reason for that, That fact is pretty much accepted by everyone, including AA. Because AA is religious, I want to find out if a secular system is as available as the faith-based one.

I am trying to find out if an addict has a fighting chance of finding a recovery method that doesn't require his being coerced into adopting the spiritual beliefs of a quasi-medical/spiritual/religious oirganization, and if he might be able to hear about and find [b:4030ac606a]a recovery program that isn't dependent on faith in God.
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Is that so revolutionary? I really don't see why it is viewed as a threat to advocate diversity, in opposition to one single, predominant, faith-based solution to a serious social problem.

barabara:

There are numerous in-patient facilities (e.g. hospitals) across the country that offer treatment programs for alcoholics, drug addicts etc.

Some may also have out-patient programs.

This is not my area of focus or interest. And this is really not an issue specifically related to this board.

This would be something for you to research on your own.

Maybe you should launch a message board or discussion group to specifically focus on and discuss such issues?

That's OK, I'll pass.
Just out of curiousity, why have you allowed any discussion of AA at all, considering how you feel about it?

And do organizations like Primerica, Mary Kay, and Herbalife fit he cult mode, either? Hardly, yet those threads are present as well.
Is this one more threatening to the well-being of the website for some reason? I can't see why it would be.

Those x-12 steppers that haven't given up on this thread still claim that they suffered spiritual abuse and emotional trauma while participating in AA. There are thousands of ex-members on hundreds of ex-recovery forums that claim this. Denying that they have made allegations will not make them disappear.

Even the universities are interested in the problems of a single-party system of recovery from substance abuse, particularly a faith-based one.

[b:3d26a926f0]If you read the course syllabus, (posted on the clergy and therapy abuse thread), from the University of Oklahoma, you will se that thay are, in a university course, addressing the exact issues that we have been here.[/b:3d26a926f0]
I suspect this is representative of schools throughout the country, and do not feel it necessary verify that, for myself at ny rate.

In fact[b:3d26a926f0] one of the 2 text books[/b:3d26a926f0]for the course was written by [b:3d26a926f0]Stanton Peele[/b:3d26a926f0], with whom you claim to be unimpressed; the other text is "[b:3d26a926f0]Craving for ecstasy: How our passions become addictions and what we can do about them[/b:3d26a926f0]. ", a book you recommend elsewhere on the forum.

If you don't think the allegations of many that AA has cult-like qualities are valid, or believe it possible that at least a few people have been harmed by aa, why have you allowed these threads to go on for so long?

I have certainly been able to present an overwhelming amount of written evidence to support[b:3d26a926f0] my contention that addressing these things is a valid pursuit.
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After all, aren't[b:3d26a926f0] faith-based[/b:3d26a926f0] recovery, [b:3d26a926f0]religious freedom[/b:3d26a926f0], and [b:3d26a926f0]allegations of abuse [/b:3d26a926f0]made by forum members at least as worthy of investigation as the question of what is it about Tom Cruise that made him join Scientology?

barabara:

We have had this discussion over and over again.

Read my previous responses.

I don't have a problem with discussion here, but you are often repeating the same things. And AA is really not very relevant here.

Frankly, I don't even see AA as that "controversial."

Again, it's actually a very small group of anti-AA people posting here.

AA probably doesn't belong on this discussion board as a relevant group for discussion, but it seemed wrong to refuse any discussion in the interest of not limiting free expression.

Of course you and others want AA to be included at cult sites. And authors like Peele and Bufe support that view.

Understood.