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LJMcB
Okay...then it's a detrimental organization with cult-like qualities that keeps people from achieving the very goal the enter to achieve.

What objective and verifiable evidence do you have to back up this assertion? And how many "people" are you claiming (expressed in a percentage or fraction)? (Assuming "sobriety" is the goal you mean in the above.)


EZ

AA's own research came up with a 5% effectiveness rate. The reported rate of spontaneous remission is higher than that (between 10-30%). Thus, AA is less effective than nothing.

Additionally, AA's own internal studies as well as those of others have concluded that fewer than 5% of the people who walk into meetings continue attending them for more than 6 months. I'm at work, but am happy to provide links to this information after 5:00 this afternoon. A quick web search will provide the source. Those 95% presumably quit attending meetings for some reason. A quick perusal of peoples' experiences, reading books titled "AA Horror Stories" and the like will inform you of WHY they left...because of attempts to cut people off from their friends and family, sexual predators, humiliation, and all sorts of other negative experiences ranging from mild to literally criminal.

Also consider that just because 5% of those who walk into the doors continue attending, this does not mean that they remain sober.




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What objective and verifiable evidence do you have to back up this assertion? And how many "people" are you claiming (expressed in a percentage or fraction)? (Assuming "sobriety" is the goal you mean in the above.)


EZ[/quote]

I have not received any complaints from families saying they are cut off from someone in AA.

The AA people I have known or met seem OK and have done well.

Alocholism is hard to beat though, and like drugs the rate of slipping back into addiction is high.

There are other options outside of AA for those who don't like its approach.

The links you cite were probably already posted on a thread through this discussion board, but feel free to post a few more links to support what you have said.

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rrmoderator
I have not received any complaints from families saying they are cut off from someone in AA.

The AA people I have known or met seem OK and have done well.

I'd love to meet those you know who have experience with AA. Because the numbers of people with any contact with the group who complain that their family member now "speaks another language" or is obsessed or is turning away from other healthy activities to attend meetings is staggering.

Also, just because people prefer the brainwashed AA drone to the dangerous drunk doesn't mean it's a good, safe, helpful option.

And yes, there are other options. Unfortunately those are all but invisible next to AA's hold on the public. I believe if people knew what went on in meetings, the perception that it is the only way or even a VIABLE way to solve a drinking problem would disappear. Try mentioning SMART Recovery to an AA member and see what kind of reception you get. (Yeah, I know you'll find one willing to let you have your opinion, but the response from any meeting attendee would be a sad shake of the head and a "you just don't get it.")

LJMcB:

"Thought reform" commonly called "brainwashing" doesn't occur in AA.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Based on the distinctions as examined by psychologist Margaret Singer, AA would fall under "indoctrination."

No "staggering" number of complaints about AA have come my way from families of participants over the 24 years I have been doing my work.

The people I have dealt with that were active in AA were anything but "drone." They each had their own unique personalities, take on AA and attitude.

rrmoderator:

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Please point me to a place where a well-known and credible cult expert has said "AA is a cult."

Would you please tell us your requirements for considering someone a "cult expert"?
Are there specific individuals whom you consider to be experts, and, if so, could you tell us what qualifications they have that make them experts?

I don't pretend to have the qualifications of an "expert", so I usually try to reserve judgement as to whether or not AA is a cult.
At times I have said I think it is, and I have said I think it is not.

The word cult seems to be a stumbling block to understanding the phenomena of the steps.
Use of the word has a tendency to stop the exchange of information and ideas.

Here are a few links to people who have labeled AA a cult:

Jeffrey Schaler
[www.schaler.net]

Stanton Peele
[www.peele.net]

Peele does not (here, or to my knowledge) actually call AA a cult, but Bufe does.

[www.peele.net]
A very informative, albeit long, page about the disease model.

The problem seems to lie in one's definition of who is an "expert".
There have been many degreed people in various related fields who have called AA a "cult".

It is up to the interpretation of the reader to decide for themselves whether or not the "expert" is truly an "expert".

I tend to judge expertise in terms or education, experience, and professional reputation.

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LJMcB
AA's own research came up with a 5% effectiveness rate. The reported rate of spontaneous remission is higher than that (between 10-30%). Thus, AA is less effective than nothing.

Or you could say that AA adds another 5% (if that is the real number) to the abysmally low 10-30% "spontaneous."

Funny, I've know dozens and dozens of alcoholics, both personally and professionally, only one of whom quit drinking without going to AA. (Whatever that's worth.)

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...inform you of WHY they left...because of attempts to cut people off from their friends and family, sexual predators, humiliation, and all sorts of other negative experiences ranging from mild to literally criminal.

...Which don't compare at all <tic> to continued drinking, which provides all of the above in abundance plus many more, LOL


EZ

Interestingly enough, (to me, anyway), I know more people personally who claim to have been healed of their problems with addiction and alcoholism through involvement in recognized cults, (in particular ISKCON and its splinter sects, fundamentalist Christian cults, the Moonies, and EST), than I do people who say they actually recovered in AA.

In fact, some of the cults I mentioned are starting to promote themselves as systems of recovery.

I do know personally dozens of people who quit AA, usually because they could not or would not accept the religious requirements of the steps.

Sobriety (after 10 years) runs about 50/50 among the people I know who rejected AA.
But my observations don't constitute a scientific study, and can't be proved here.

barabara:

Neither Schaler or Peele are cult experts.

I understand they have strong opinions about AA, but cults is not their focus.

Please, that is why I asked you waht you consider to be the qualifications of a "cult expert".
Would you tell me what those qualifications are?