Maybe our gut feeling is where spidey sense operates
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: November 08, 2014 06:23AM
((Note: this is only my layman's hunch. I spent years
ignoring spidey sense/gut feelings, while heeding
those in other sitautions.))
Dear SamR:
I want to thank you for mentioning this item:
"I don't have to hide that spidey sense I get when I
look at photos of Ikeda".
I have been in a lot of bad situations where my
inner radar, what you call 'spidey sense' was blaring
alarm. But I kept ignoring it, or worse, rationalizing
the stuff that was triggering my misgivings.
Chronically ignoring one's inner gut warning is exhausting.
I cannot speak for anyone else, but after having been in
too many situations where I ignored my own 'spidey-sense'
I took inventory of myself and my past.
I grew up in a secret ridden, anxiety ridden family, and one
parent was alcoholic. I knew I'd not survive if I ran away
as a minor.
So I learned to ignore my misgivings. Got very good at that.
Worse, I learned to rationalize, make excuses for bizarre,
scary or inconguent behavior.
All I can suggest is, I learned for myself that I think with my body,
especially my gut, as well as with my brain. They've found out
that the gut is very rich in neurotransmitters, to the point of some
researchers nicknaming it 'the second brain.'
I have found out that every time my gut warned me, it was right, while
my word driven brain and my heart centered sense of loyalty could be
easily conned manipulated.
Our guts seem to know the real truth, even when our hearts and
minds are confused.
When our minds, hearts and guts work in harmony, we
are whole.
Bad relationships and set ups like SGI and other cults disrupt
that harmony between mind, heart and gut -- these will
disrupt the team harmony between the three.
The gut seems to warn us via the spidey sense when something
is bullshit or just out of whack.
And ignoring one's deepest best friend **is** exhausting.
As for SGI, no single person however intelligent, can
out manuver them unless he or she is thoroughly briefed
on what SGI actually is and how its methods work --
and even with that knowledge, few can hold out against
a well rehearsed team and group set up.
Never forget you were the target of a well rehearsed protocol, a
protocol theyve spent decades developing -- and testing -- on
thousands of targets.
An analogy
An ordinary untrained person is not weak or inept, just
because he or she cannot hold out against a well
rehearsed team of SWAT officers.
** Thing about our gut is it warns in rather global nonspecific
ways -- enough to signal Good, Neutral, Get Outta Here.
The analogy is with a smoke alarm. The smoke alarm cannot
tell you where the fire is or what kind of fire it is. All the
smoke alarm does is wake you up. It is up to you to get
out and let the fire department put out the fire, and let
the inspector investigate the causes.
Problem is, many bad partners in relationships or leaders of
bad groups will con us. Will say, 'Aww you just have this
vague feeling? That isnt enough. Tell me the specifics."
But..we need our brains to tell us specifics and what if our
brains are muddled and confused by trauma or subtle
forms of indoctrination? Depression and sleep deprivation
can also hinder thought processes.
Or you may be dealing with a person who claims to
want dialogue, claims to welcome your specifics and your
viewpoint, but will actually find ways to invalidate and
reject anything you say, no matter how specific,
well reasoned.
Just trust your gut and get out -- the spidey sense in ones
gut is designed to keep us in good situations, and
run us out and away from danger.
Then, at a safe distance, in a non toxic environment,
we can use our brains and emotions to analyse the specifics.
that is what I discoveredby letting my brain keep me waiting
around in the smoke
of lies, kept me waiting for 'specifics'.
Its like dealing with telemarketers. Dont talk, just hang
up.
ignoring spidey sense/gut feelings, while heeding
those in other sitautions.))
Dear SamR:
I want to thank you for mentioning this item:
"I don't have to hide that spidey sense I get when I
look at photos of Ikeda".
I have been in a lot of bad situations where my
inner radar, what you call 'spidey sense' was blaring
alarm. But I kept ignoring it, or worse, rationalizing
the stuff that was triggering my misgivings.
Chronically ignoring one's inner gut warning is exhausting.
I cannot speak for anyone else, but after having been in
too many situations where I ignored my own 'spidey-sense'
I took inventory of myself and my past.
I grew up in a secret ridden, anxiety ridden family, and one
parent was alcoholic. I knew I'd not survive if I ran away
as a minor.
So I learned to ignore my misgivings. Got very good at that.
Worse, I learned to rationalize, make excuses for bizarre,
scary or inconguent behavior.
All I can suggest is, I learned for myself that I think with my body,
especially my gut, as well as with my brain. They've found out
that the gut is very rich in neurotransmitters, to the point of some
researchers nicknaming it 'the second brain.'
I have found out that every time my gut warned me, it was right, while
my word driven brain and my heart centered sense of loyalty could be
easily conned manipulated.
Our guts seem to know the real truth, even when our hearts and
minds are confused.
When our minds, hearts and guts work in harmony, we
are whole.
Bad relationships and set ups like SGI and other cults disrupt
that harmony between mind, heart and gut -- these will
disrupt the team harmony between the three.
The gut seems to warn us via the spidey sense when something
is bullshit or just out of whack.
And ignoring one's deepest best friend **is** exhausting.
As for SGI, no single person however intelligent, can
out manuver them unless he or she is thoroughly briefed
on what SGI actually is and how its methods work --
and even with that knowledge, few can hold out against
a well rehearsed team and group set up.
Never forget you were the target of a well rehearsed protocol, a
protocol theyve spent decades developing -- and testing -- on
thousands of targets.
An analogy
An ordinary untrained person is not weak or inept, just
because he or she cannot hold out against a well
rehearsed team of SWAT officers.
** Thing about our gut is it warns in rather global nonspecific
ways -- enough to signal Good, Neutral, Get Outta Here.
The analogy is with a smoke alarm. The smoke alarm cannot
tell you where the fire is or what kind of fire it is. All the
smoke alarm does is wake you up. It is up to you to get
out and let the fire department put out the fire, and let
the inspector investigate the causes.
Problem is, many bad partners in relationships or leaders of
bad groups will con us. Will say, 'Aww you just have this
vague feeling? That isnt enough. Tell me the specifics."
But..we need our brains to tell us specifics and what if our
brains are muddled and confused by trauma or subtle
forms of indoctrination? Depression and sleep deprivation
can also hinder thought processes.
Or you may be dealing with a person who claims to
want dialogue, claims to welcome your specifics and your
viewpoint, but will actually find ways to invalidate and
reject anything you say, no matter how specific,
well reasoned.
Just trust your gut and get out -- the spidey sense in ones
gut is designed to keep us in good situations, and
run us out and away from danger.
Then, at a safe distance, in a non toxic environment,
we can use our brains and emotions to analyse the specifics.
that is what I discoveredby letting my brain keep me waiting
around in the smoke
of lies, kept me waiting for 'specifics'.
Its like dealing with telemarketers. Dont talk, just hang
up.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
meh
()
Date: November 08, 2014 06:41AM
So well put, corboy! A friend used to say "my gut never ever lied to me - it was when I started thinking with my brain that I got into trouble." We have those instincts (or whatever you want to call them) for a reason . . . to protect ourselves. It's all very well and good to analyze the data when you're buying a car or a toaster, but for non-data decisions, the tummy doesn't deceive.
I went to my first krg probably in 2000 or 2001; I got as far as the lobby, heard the chanting, and it completely weirded me out. When I forced myself to try it again in 2006, I stifled those escape signals in my gut. It took me a while to start listening to them again.
I went to my first krg probably in 2000 or 2001; I got as far as the lobby, heard the chanting, and it completely weirded me out. When I forced myself to try it again in 2006, I stifled those escape signals in my gut. It took me a while to start listening to them again.
Re: Maybe our gut feeling is where spidey sense operates
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: November 08, 2014 11:14PM
Meh wrote: "I went to my first krg probably in 2000 or 2001; I got as far as the lobby, heard the chanting, and it completely weirded me out. When I forced myself to try it again in 2006, I stifled those escape signals in my gut. It took me a while to start listening to them again."
I learned just a little too well to stifle 'those escape signals'
because I had to tune them out in order to endure my family.
On top of that I had to deny that I was denying my gut alarm signals.
Got bullied a lot at school.
Mom, who yelled and was sarcastic, would demand, "Why don't you
stick up for yourself. That person X, one day she's nice to you
and the next day she's mean to you. Why do you keep putting up
with it?"
Well, Mom was just as much bully as this other kid was, changed
her moods, just as much as this other kid did.
So, how could I face I was being bullied at school, when I'd
unconsciously spent years ignoring how I'd been bullied at home?
I offer this as an example of how for some of us, spidey sense
becomes muted if we grow up in bad situations. This can
lead some into one bad group after another.
But...here's the thing.Even for those of us who grow up in loving
respectful families and have good spidey sense, the danger
is that human beings are *influenceable*. That same quality
that enables us to adjust to a new school, a new neighborhood,
a new social group -- that same adaptability can be exploited
against us by cult recruiters.
We are adaptable. It is our glory and our danger.
Where we have agency is to know this and use our information
specific brains to do background checks on groups, just
the way we do research and read reviews before we buy a new
car or smart phone.
And here's the thing:
People who think it is great do do background research when
pondering which universities to apply to often consider it
cynical, hateful, 'negative' to apply this same discernement
to groups and religions.
Or are easily conned to believe so.
But, here you are pondering which school, university or college or
training program to go to -- or send your child to.
Educational institutions are social environments, learning environments.
You do background research on that. Society
thinks *that is OK.*
They have rating systems for schools and
colleges. You can find out if training programs are
accredited or if their accreditation is in poor standing.
You can find out what percentage graduate after 4 years, vs those
who stay stuck. (Valuable info -- one doesnt want student loans
to pile up beyond one's budget.)
But.. oh, the outcry, oh the outrage when we advise that
people do background research on religious groups
or self transformation groups!
I learned just a little too well to stifle 'those escape signals'
because I had to tune them out in order to endure my family.
On top of that I had to deny that I was denying my gut alarm signals.
Got bullied a lot at school.
Mom, who yelled and was sarcastic, would demand, "Why don't you
stick up for yourself. That person X, one day she's nice to you
and the next day she's mean to you. Why do you keep putting up
with it?"
Well, Mom was just as much bully as this other kid was, changed
her moods, just as much as this other kid did.
So, how could I face I was being bullied at school, when I'd
unconsciously spent years ignoring how I'd been bullied at home?
I offer this as an example of how for some of us, spidey sense
becomes muted if we grow up in bad situations. This can
lead some into one bad group after another.
But...here's the thing.Even for those of us who grow up in loving
respectful families and have good spidey sense, the danger
is that human beings are *influenceable*. That same quality
that enables us to adjust to a new school, a new neighborhood,
a new social group -- that same adaptability can be exploited
against us by cult recruiters.
We are adaptable. It is our glory and our danger.
Where we have agency is to know this and use our information
specific brains to do background checks on groups, just
the way we do research and read reviews before we buy a new
car or smart phone.
And here's the thing:
People who think it is great do do background research when
pondering which universities to apply to often consider it
cynical, hateful, 'negative' to apply this same discernement
to groups and religions.
Or are easily conned to believe so.
But, here you are pondering which school, university or college or
training program to go to -- or send your child to.
Educational institutions are social environments, learning environments.
You do background research on that. Society
thinks *that is OK.*
They have rating systems for schools and
colleges. You can find out if training programs are
accredited or if their accreditation is in poor standing.
You can find out what percentage graduate after 4 years, vs those
who stay stuck. (Valuable info -- one doesnt want student loans
to pile up beyond one's budget.)
But.. oh, the outcry, oh the outrage when we advise that
people do background research on religious groups
or self transformation groups!
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
meh
()
Date: November 10, 2014 03:20AM
It's almost as if there's something "wrong" about examining a religious or self-transformation group; they only want to help you! How dare you want to look a gift-guru in the mouth!!
And, if you told the person trying to recruit you that you just wanted to check things out, there would be a ready reply. "Well, by all means, gather as much info as you can! I do want you to be aware, though, that there's a lot of negative stuff out there. THEY call US a cult, THEY say that WE'RE dishonest. The truth is though, that many of THEM are failed members or actual ENEMIES. THEY are envious, and THEY only want to see US fail. THEY tell so many lies about US, and WE chant for THEIR happiness because, obvs, THEY are very troubled and unhappy people! Please come to me with any questions, and I'll be happy to answer them!"
So many things going on there:
Suggested honesty - I'm acknowledging that there is negative stuff out there.
A quick establishment of us vs. them - they hate us, they envy us.
Persecution - they're out there to destroy our glorious organization.
We're better than they are - while they plot our destruction, we pray for their happiness.
The suggestion that they might be unbalanced - so troubled, so unhappy, poor them!
Offer of assistance - I've been so up-front with you in acknowledging all of this . . . you just know I'll be honest if you are troubled by any of the info you find.
And you get to feel kind of like an ungrateful worm, because I have been so wonderful to you - you'll be cutting me some slack because you feel kind of bad about it after I've been so swell!
And, if you told the person trying to recruit you that you just wanted to check things out, there would be a ready reply. "Well, by all means, gather as much info as you can! I do want you to be aware, though, that there's a lot of negative stuff out there. THEY call US a cult, THEY say that WE'RE dishonest. The truth is though, that many of THEM are failed members or actual ENEMIES. THEY are envious, and THEY only want to see US fail. THEY tell so many lies about US, and WE chant for THEIR happiness because, obvs, THEY are very troubled and unhappy people! Please come to me with any questions, and I'll be happy to answer them!"
So many things going on there:
Suggested honesty - I'm acknowledging that there is negative stuff out there.
A quick establishment of us vs. them - they hate us, they envy us.
Persecution - they're out there to destroy our glorious organization.
We're better than they are - while they plot our destruction, we pray for their happiness.
The suggestion that they might be unbalanced - so troubled, so unhappy, poor them!
Offer of assistance - I've been so up-front with you in acknowledging all of this . . . you just know I'll be honest if you are troubled by any of the info you find.
And you get to feel kind of like an ungrateful worm, because I have been so wonderful to you - you'll be cutting me some slack because you feel kind of bad about it after I've been so swell!
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: November 10, 2014 06:56AM
(Grinning)
Everything Meh has described is also
a well-rehearsed protocol.
Most ordinary persons are not well equipped to
produce so fluent and thorough a reply/rebuttal
toward someone's request for time to check things out.
But someone trained in verbal judo has been trained
to do this.
Lets look at Meh's description:
Suggested honesty - I'm acknowledging that there *is* negative
stuff out there.
**(Most of us are tired and budget our energy carefully. It takes
time and energy to make a harm report. Two, many people
feel ashamed of being ripped off, or they doubt their own
perceptions.
So...if there are that many negative reports that a recruiter *has*
to acknowledge this, that means enough people made it a priority
to complain. That, by itself, says something right there.
A quick establishment of us vs. them - they hate us, they envy us.
**(A preview of the black and white thinking that permeates this
recruiter's group. This is how they will talk about you when you
get burned out and leave.
Persecution - they're out there to destroy our glorious organization.
**If this is real persecution, why didnt we hear of anything in the
news? Two, if they're actually being persecuted, how is it that
the recruiter feels free to approach us?
We're better than they are - while they plot our destruction, we
pray for their happiness.
**If you're so wonderful, why do you need to send out recruiters?
Why arn't people turning up at your HQ on their own if you're
so wonderful?
The suggestion that they might be unbalanced - so troubled,
so unhappy, poor them!
***Ha, if your group has that many unbalanced, troubled former
members, either your group does a lousy job recruiting
by consistently picking troubled people. Or your group
makes a lot of people angry. Or...both!!!
Offer of assistance - I've been so up-front with you in
acknowledging all of this . . . you just know I'll be honest
if you are troubled by any of the info you find.
**Ha. There is another way this trap works. When someone
reveals (or seems to reveal) a lot of intimate info to us,
many times we feel obligated to reciprocate. Especially
those of us trained to be polite.
And you get to feel kind of like an ungrateful worm, because I
have been so wonderful to you - you'll be cutting me some slack
because you feel kind of bad about it after I've been so swell!
***Anyone that good at throwing guilt trips is shitty
company in a long term relationship -- whether its
dating or a cult.
In addition to Meh's list, here is another common claim:
*"Jesus was persecuted, too, so are we."
So the story goes, Jesus and his disciples actually
worked miracles. People saw for themselves.
But unlike these other groups, Jesus differed in these ways:
* J gave full disclosure of the hardships disciples were
in for if they chose to follow him.
* Jesus did not accumulate heaps of money and property for
himself. It even could be said he was betrayed by his own
accountant.
* Jesus faced consequences alone, without a lawyer. All his
followers disowned him and went into hiding -- which
indicates Jesus didnt use any cultic methods of influence.
Everything Meh has described is also
a well-rehearsed protocol.
Most ordinary persons are not well equipped to
produce so fluent and thorough a reply/rebuttal
toward someone's request for time to check things out.
But someone trained in verbal judo has been trained
to do this.
Lets look at Meh's description:
Suggested honesty - I'm acknowledging that there *is* negative
stuff out there.
**(Most of us are tired and budget our energy carefully. It takes
time and energy to make a harm report. Two, many people
feel ashamed of being ripped off, or they doubt their own
perceptions.
So...if there are that many negative reports that a recruiter *has*
to acknowledge this, that means enough people made it a priority
to complain. That, by itself, says something right there.
A quick establishment of us vs. them - they hate us, they envy us.
**(A preview of the black and white thinking that permeates this
recruiter's group. This is how they will talk about you when you
get burned out and leave.
Persecution - they're out there to destroy our glorious organization.
**If this is real persecution, why didnt we hear of anything in the
news? Two, if they're actually being persecuted, how is it that
the recruiter feels free to approach us?
We're better than they are - while they plot our destruction, we
pray for their happiness.
**If you're so wonderful, why do you need to send out recruiters?
Why arn't people turning up at your HQ on their own if you're
so wonderful?
The suggestion that they might be unbalanced - so troubled,
so unhappy, poor them!
***Ha, if your group has that many unbalanced, troubled former
members, either your group does a lousy job recruiting
by consistently picking troubled people. Or your group
makes a lot of people angry. Or...both!!!
Offer of assistance - I've been so up-front with you in
acknowledging all of this . . . you just know I'll be honest
if you are troubled by any of the info you find.
**Ha. There is another way this trap works. When someone
reveals (or seems to reveal) a lot of intimate info to us,
many times we feel obligated to reciprocate. Especially
those of us trained to be polite.
And you get to feel kind of like an ungrateful worm, because I
have been so wonderful to you - you'll be cutting me some slack
because you feel kind of bad about it after I've been so swell!
***Anyone that good at throwing guilt trips is shitty
company in a long term relationship -- whether its
dating or a cult.
In addition to Meh's list, here is another common claim:
*"Jesus was persecuted, too, so are we."
So the story goes, Jesus and his disciples actually
worked miracles. People saw for themselves.
But unlike these other groups, Jesus differed in these ways:
* J gave full disclosure of the hardships disciples were
in for if they chose to follow him.
* Jesus did not accumulate heaps of money and property for
himself. It even could be said he was betrayed by his own
accountant.
* Jesus faced consequences alone, without a lawyer. All his
followers disowned him and went into hiding -- which
indicates Jesus didnt use any cultic methods of influence.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
Hitch
()
Date: November 10, 2014 08:20PM
One of my first spider-sense moments came when I became old enough to start thinking about the name "Value Creation Society."
It means everything . . . and it means nothing. It basically means anything you want it to mean or anything that you need it to mean. Also, everything that it is supposed to mean, ultimately doesn't wash with the behavior & conduct of members, in reality, within the organization.
One big sack of lies and manipulation, everywhere you look and everywhere you turn. When I was younger, it confused me a lot (how they would say one thing, pretend to stand for something honorable & lofty, yet turn around in the same breath and treat you exactly the opposite or expect you to do the same to others).
Now, we all know, that's exactly how it is intended.
- Hitch
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2014 08:24PM by Hitch.
It means everything . . . and it means nothing. It basically means anything you want it to mean or anything that you need it to mean. Also, everything that it is supposed to mean, ultimately doesn't wash with the behavior & conduct of members, in reality, within the organization.
One big sack of lies and manipulation, everywhere you look and everywhere you turn. When I was younger, it confused me a lot (how they would say one thing, pretend to stand for something honorable & lofty, yet turn around in the same breath and treat you exactly the opposite or expect you to do the same to others).
Now, we all know, that's exactly how it is intended.
- Hitch
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2014 08:24PM by Hitch.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
meh
()
Date: November 11, 2014 11:02PM
"As an eternal principle, the Soka Gakkai will never ask for even the tiniest contribution of offering from the members." - Daisaku Ikeda - from the Seikyo Shinbun, 6/16/1962.
Not the first lie, and certainly not the last.
Not the first lie, and certainly not the last.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
Hitch
()
Date: November 13, 2014 06:35AM
"Leaving behind their homeland"
"Young students set out to discover"
"Their true potential"
"Dialogue"
"Chanting"
"Determination"
"Friendship"*
[www.youtube.com]
From FNCC (cult retreat). All bolded terms are cult-speak buzz words.
*"Friendship" applies so long as you remain within their good graces.
Once there, you will engage in thought reform "dialogue," meditative (mind numbing, for me) "chanting," and strengthen the bonds between fellow members (and of course, The Dear Leader) via "determinations" (useless promises that will be used to manipulate you down the road) and "friendships" (so-called), again for pure manipulation purposes should you ever "backslide in your faith."
Also, let us not forget the behavior regression rituals you shall also be expected to participate in . . .
[www.youtube.com]
Enjoy!
- Hitch
"Young students set out to discover"
"Their true potential"
"Dialogue"
"Chanting"
"Determination"
"Friendship"*
[www.youtube.com]
From FNCC (cult retreat). All bolded terms are cult-speak buzz words.
*"Friendship" applies so long as you remain within their good graces.
Once there, you will engage in thought reform "dialogue," meditative (mind numbing, for me) "chanting," and strengthen the bonds between fellow members (and of course, The Dear Leader) via "determinations" (useless promises that will be used to manipulate you down the road) and "friendships" (so-called), again for pure manipulation purposes should you ever "backslide in your faith."
Also, let us not forget the behavior regression rituals you shall also be expected to participate in . . .
[www.youtube.com]
Enjoy!
- Hitch
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
meh
()
Date: November 14, 2014 12:05AM
Buried under that happy-happy layer is a level of sinister manipulation. These are the same people we all practiced with - completely average and composed people in their daily life, but once under the thrall, subject to shedding of inhibitions to a hypnotic drum-beat, there's very little hesitation to get up in front of a group of people and act in a way they never would under any other circumstances. My first krg, members of the WD (all in their 40's or older), put on cat-costumes and put on a performance that I'm still not able to define in my brain. Of course, they had a great reception.
This is something that they'll gently joke with each other about, further bonding, having a mutual embarrassment about.
This is something that they'll gently joke with each other about, further bonding, having a mutual embarrassment about.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
Hitch
()
Date: November 16, 2014 05:09AM
A hardcore thrall enthralling in the motherland.
[www.youtube.com]
I've been around many a hardcore gakkai member. This guy has got "it" bad. "It" = Ikeda Fever. (This is one of the climaxes of this guy's life, I have no doubt.)
Somehow there is something so apt in the imagery of him "performing" so aggressively in front of the closed bustudan. One show merely usurping another show.
- Hitch
[www.youtube.com]
I've been around many a hardcore gakkai member. This guy has got "it" bad. "It" = Ikeda Fever. (This is one of the climaxes of this guy's life, I have no doubt.)
Somehow there is something so apt in the imagery of him "performing" so aggressively in front of the closed bustudan. One show merely usurping another show.
- Hitch
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