Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
TaitenAndProud
()
Date: February 28, 2013 01:45PM
Speaking of David Aoyama...if memory serves, he was meeting with us youth division leaders for a guidance session (just about a dozen of us), and in his opening comments, he mentioned that, when he came to this country, he had to work for his green card, which meant that he had to do a job that wouldn't take work away from Americans. So he worked in a Japanese restaurant. The only activity he could do was one night of toban each week. This went on for *years* - how many was it? Ten??? Also, when he and his wife wanted to marry, they couldn't because of immigration paperwork for some 6 months, so they had their Buddhist wedding first and then, once their immigration paperwork was processed, had the civil ceremony to make it all legal later.
Edit: What I meant to finish with is that, given that his *only* activity for kosen-rufu was an overnight toban shift once a week - and this, by his own account, for YEARS! - he must have had some serious connections to be rushed up the ladder to a national leadership position so quickly. Was it because he was Japanese and, thus, got special consideration? Why did he come over here in the first place? It would be really interesting to know the backstory, but I'm sure that's not the sort of thing we'll ever be privy to. I think that perhaps he and Danny Nagashima were exported to the USA to rapidly move into position to take over from Mr. Williams (heir and a spare). There aren't any "homegrown" members who advanced that rapidly to such prominent positions - why is it that the USA's national leaders are all ethnic Japanese? Spartacus can, I'm sure, comment on how he's observed that the Japanese members always were given special accommodation and treated with deference, something no gaijin apparently merited.
I remember when I was still just a member, at my first August shakubuku campaign, I got a "home visit" from my chapter YWD leader, who'd brought along some Japanese young woman. Who it turns out spoke, like, THREE words of Engrish. I commented that I was extremely uncomfortable with the exhortation to set a "shakubuku goal" of how many people I intended to introduce to Buddhism that month - I referred to it as "body count" and said that I felt it was extremely disrespectful, as it reduced people to *targets*. So what does JapanGirl say? "Shakubuku...make...people...happy." Thanks, hon. Now shut up *eye roll*
So WHY was this Japanese person being taken along when she couldn't even communicate?? I tell you what, if it had been some illiterate American, that person wouldn't even see the inside of a leader's meeting, much less be "invited" to go "help" with the "precious members"! The only reason that broad was there was because she was Japanese and, thus, was to be automatically included in any/all activities. No Americans got that kind of indulgence. It was just embarrassing.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2013 01:52PM by TaitenAndProud.
Edit: What I meant to finish with is that, given that his *only* activity for kosen-rufu was an overnight toban shift once a week - and this, by his own account, for YEARS! - he must have had some serious connections to be rushed up the ladder to a national leadership position so quickly. Was it because he was Japanese and, thus, got special consideration? Why did he come over here in the first place? It would be really interesting to know the backstory, but I'm sure that's not the sort of thing we'll ever be privy to. I think that perhaps he and Danny Nagashima were exported to the USA to rapidly move into position to take over from Mr. Williams (heir and a spare). There aren't any "homegrown" members who advanced that rapidly to such prominent positions - why is it that the USA's national leaders are all ethnic Japanese? Spartacus can, I'm sure, comment on how he's observed that the Japanese members always were given special accommodation and treated with deference, something no gaijin apparently merited.
I remember when I was still just a member, at my first August shakubuku campaign, I got a "home visit" from my chapter YWD leader, who'd brought along some Japanese young woman. Who it turns out spoke, like, THREE words of Engrish. I commented that I was extremely uncomfortable with the exhortation to set a "shakubuku goal" of how many people I intended to introduce to Buddhism that month - I referred to it as "body count" and said that I felt it was extremely disrespectful, as it reduced people to *targets*. So what does JapanGirl say? "Shakubuku...make...people...happy." Thanks, hon. Now shut up *eye roll*
So WHY was this Japanese person being taken along when she couldn't even communicate?? I tell you what, if it had been some illiterate American, that person wouldn't even see the inside of a leader's meeting, much less be "invited" to go "help" with the "precious members"! The only reason that broad was there was because she was Japanese and, thus, was to be automatically included in any/all activities. No Americans got that kind of indulgence. It was just embarrassing.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2013 01:52PM by TaitenAndProud.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
Nichijew
()
Date: February 28, 2013 10:09PM
Shin Yatomi stated that he would definitely overcome his cancer by virtue of his relationship with Sensei [nothing about his relationship to the the Law, Gohonzon, Lotus Sutra, Nichiren Daishonin, etc]. Yatomi was the real SGI Study Department Chief, not the posseur, Greg Martin.Quote
TaitenAndProud
Guy McCloskey---man, how do you explain that to members?
What, you mean the problems with his son? Has something happened other than that that I haven't heard of yet?
There was a Japanese American leader I really liked here in LA - a study department chief who was young and really cool - but when I tried to call him when I was on the verge of leaving SGI, I learned that he had serious cancer - he was dead a month or two later. Remember Pascual Olivera? Who had cancer and then had chemo etc. and decided to stop his treatment early because he was confident that there was "not one cancer cell left in his body"? Oh, yeah, he chanted balls to the wall and came out certain that he'd vanquished every last bit of cancer from his body! He reported that his doctor told him that, but if his doctor said that, Doc simply revealed that he doesn't know diddly squat about cancer. That was the year that Pascual Olivera and his wife danced for President Ikeda on New Years. When I read his "not one cancer cell left" experience, my heart sank. That's an irresponsible and unwarranted thing to say. Sure enough, within 6 months, the cancer was back, and more aggressive, and he was dead within a coupla months.
There's no magic charm or spell, people. Life happens, and if you can accept it as it is rather than trying to bend it to your will, you'll suffer less. That was the message of the Buddha.
Mark
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
TaitenAndProud
()
Date: February 28, 2013 11:54PM
THAT's the one I was talking about - Shin Yatomi. Good guy. I was sad to see him pass on in so untimely a fashion. I called him "The Shin Man" :D
Yeah, it's a shame he was so deluded - I really liked him. But in the end, we're all deluded, aren't we? And it's the delusions we don't recognize as such that drive us around like little cars. One of the "prime points" (ugh - more gakkaispeak) of Buddhism is to become aware of your delusions, because once you recognize them for what they are, they lose their power to influence you.
We should be asking questions like, "Why is this so important to me? What's going to change in my life if I get it?" and "Why am I clinging to this so strongly? Why do I feel I *need* this in my life?" and, most importantly, "What am I afraid will happen if I *don't* have/get this?"
Shin Yatomi stated that he would definitely overcome his cancer by virtue of his relationship with Sensei [nothing about his relationship to the the Law, Gohonzon, Lotus Sutra, Nichiren Daishonin, etc].
I never heard that and, frankly, it doesn't sound like something the Shin Yatomi *I* knew would have said. Do you have a source for that?
Yeah, it's a shame he was so deluded - I really liked him. But in the end, we're all deluded, aren't we? And it's the delusions we don't recognize as such that drive us around like little cars. One of the "prime points" (ugh - more gakkaispeak) of Buddhism is to become aware of your delusions, because once you recognize them for what they are, they lose their power to influence you.
We should be asking questions like, "Why is this so important to me? What's going to change in my life if I get it?" and "Why am I clinging to this so strongly? Why do I feel I *need* this in my life?" and, most importantly, "What am I afraid will happen if I *don't* have/get this?"
Shin Yatomi stated that he would definitely overcome his cancer by virtue of his relationship with Sensei [nothing about his relationship to the the Law, Gohonzon, Lotus Sutra, Nichiren Daishonin, etc].
I never heard that and, frankly, it doesn't sound like something the Shin Yatomi *I* knew would have said. Do you have a source for that?
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
Shavoy
()
Date: March 01, 2013 02:05AM
@Taiten--in reference to Guy McCloskey, yes, it was his son's issues.
When bad things happen, die-hard SGI-ers don't know how to handle it. Because it flies in the face of everything mentioned in the above posts. They have to pull a Frame out of the hat.
I remember in the WT, after Mr. Aoyama's passing, there was one article about it. Not very big. It seemed to me that there was the hushed tone surrounding it, that Hitch spoke about. It didn't escape me then.
We've all known pioneer Japanese who have fought their own battles with sickness and cancer and succumbed.
I've written here earlier about when a member commits suicide. Hush AND confusion.
When bad things happen, die-hard SGI-ers don't know how to handle it. Because it flies in the face of everything mentioned in the above posts. They have to pull a Frame out of the hat.
I remember in the WT, after Mr. Aoyama's passing, there was one article about it. Not very big. It seemed to me that there was the hushed tone surrounding it, that Hitch spoke about. It didn't escape me then.
We've all known pioneer Japanese who have fought their own battles with sickness and cancer and succumbed.
I've written here earlier about when a member commits suicide. Hush AND confusion.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
rattyboy
()
Date: March 01, 2013 04:00AM
Quote
Hitch
A behind-the-scenes glimpse into a $oka cult USA "planning" mtg.. This one [www.youtube.com] is about shakubuku ('break and subdue' = proselytise, the fastest sure fire way to expiate one's fake karma). Lots of cult-speak lingo in the one, too. One interesting part = LPG Plan, Lowest Possible Goal Plan --> it's always a numbers game - always.
6 people:
First lady, parroting senior "leader", superficial generic "guidance" (everyone says, "wow", "that was great").
Next lady, all cult-speak, strictly by the book (you can never go wrong with this approach).
Next guy, the numbers man.
After that, the lady who tells everyone from the get-go that she's a "buddhist" (pseudo-buddhist in a Japanese cult, that is).
Next up, ("last but not least, the most important") the "YOUTH!" "leader", trying to give a good yank on the emotional heart string.
Finally, the "leader" of the group that night, sprinkles all of it on top with a bit of throw away humor.
They'll meet again next month and most likely have zero shakubuku show up or join. Rewind and repeat the entire process from the beginning. Sooner or later, they will catch a new fish by the hook and it may or may not take, but it will be hugely feted within cult org. circles as a mystical benefit. When good things happen, it's all because of the gohonzon. When bad things happen, it's all because of your karma. When really, really bad things happen, you'll never hear about it.
-Hitch
The first minute of this video has "the result lady", I'll call her. She was chanting for a 'result' which is getting someone to their first SGI meeting and then she uses the word 'result' again, which might have been used by the leader giving her guidance. The'result' being a numbers game tied specifically to getting someone from the street into the fishnet, or the introductory meeting. I think this idea of 'caring about someone' will lead to the 'result' would seem disingenuous to me even if I didn't know anything about this group, like if I were a non-practicing family member sitting in the other room overhearing the people in this video. I remember 'result', and being offended by it. It refered to the hooking, not a human connection.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
TaitenAndProud
()
Date: March 01, 2013 04:13AM
I remember 'result', and being offended by it. It refered to the hooking, not a human connection.
As did I. Which was why I described it as "body count."
As did I. Which was why I described it as "body count."
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
Hitch
()
Date: March 01, 2013 05:32AM
Rattyboy, it's funny how we suddenly remember all these things when they are brought up by others. I, too, heard the "No Accidents!" refrain all the time when I was in, as well as the "getting results" in the shakubuku'ing department reference. The cult-speak has a way of integrating itself into you so deeply in some instances, that you don't even recognize every piece of it still lingering inside you, like a dustball that blew into the corners of your mind to hide.
"No Accidents!" was the refrain before-during-&-after every major (especially the big ones) event or campaign. "Before", it was the sansho-shima devils conspiring to prevent the activity from even taking place, "during", it was the same group of devils attempting to destroy the "harmony" (more cult-speak) and 100% success of the event, and "after", again it was the same group of devils coming after us because you let your guard down too much or relaxed too soon. The "official" shansho-shima watch patrol could only be disbanded once every single member was home "safely", the venue cleaned up and returned to normal, AND everyone reported the head count numbers to their senior 'leader."
What a primitive, manipulative, superstitious, con-game it all was!
And on that note, the shakubuku game never sat well with me. The cult org. would speak out of both sides of its mouth, saying on one side to "treasure" each "precious" (more cult-speak) new convert, yet also saying we need MORE and MORE numbers or (as you mentioned) "RESULTS" with the other side of its mouth.
At the height of it all, it was a bit like all of the culties going out on to the street (literally) and rounding up all the stray and homeless dogs (people) they could entice to tag along and drop them off in the backyard, behind the fence at the local temple. Then, they would run off to go get more, with nobody taking care (feeding, teaching, nurturing, etc.) of the group that was just dumped off purely for the number count. The newly shakubuku'ed would get their doggy biscuit or toy (the gohonzon) and then walk away with it, usually eventually dropping it and forgetting about it entirely. Then, later, the senior leaders would complain as they had to go and inevitably pick up all the poop left behind from the fake doggy show.
The U.S.A. gakkai cult org. shakubuku fireworks display show was Williams' blazing finale (basically, a numbers con job for the motherland number crunchers and The Dear Leader himself), that IMO also probably played some role in his ultimate demise. It sure was a crazy time, too.
Just goes to show, old habits die hard in the U.S. gakkai cult org.. They shall always tend to view new converts as new "meat" and numbers. "Numbers, numbers, numbers," it's always the "numbers" with everything in the gakkai cult org..
- Hitch
"No Accidents!" was the refrain before-during-&-after every major (especially the big ones) event or campaign. "Before", it was the sansho-shima devils conspiring to prevent the activity from even taking place, "during", it was the same group of devils attempting to destroy the "harmony" (more cult-speak) and 100% success of the event, and "after", again it was the same group of devils coming after us because you let your guard down too much or relaxed too soon. The "official" shansho-shima watch patrol could only be disbanded once every single member was home "safely", the venue cleaned up and returned to normal, AND everyone reported the head count numbers to their senior 'leader."
What a primitive, manipulative, superstitious, con-game it all was!
And on that note, the shakubuku game never sat well with me. The cult org. would speak out of both sides of its mouth, saying on one side to "treasure" each "precious" (more cult-speak) new convert, yet also saying we need MORE and MORE numbers or (as you mentioned) "RESULTS" with the other side of its mouth.
At the height of it all, it was a bit like all of the culties going out on to the street (literally) and rounding up all the stray and homeless dogs (people) they could entice to tag along and drop them off in the backyard, behind the fence at the local temple. Then, they would run off to go get more, with nobody taking care (feeding, teaching, nurturing, etc.) of the group that was just dumped off purely for the number count. The newly shakubuku'ed would get their doggy biscuit or toy (the gohonzon) and then walk away with it, usually eventually dropping it and forgetting about it entirely. Then, later, the senior leaders would complain as they had to go and inevitably pick up all the poop left behind from the fake doggy show.
The U.S.A. gakkai cult org. shakubuku fireworks display show was Williams' blazing finale (basically, a numbers con job for the motherland number crunchers and The Dear Leader himself), that IMO also probably played some role in his ultimate demise. It sure was a crazy time, too.
Just goes to show, old habits die hard in the U.S. gakkai cult org.. They shall always tend to view new converts as new "meat" and numbers. "Numbers, numbers, numbers," it's always the "numbers" with everything in the gakkai cult org..
- Hitch
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
Shavoy
()
Date: March 01, 2013 05:47AM
@Hitch--but what are those numbers REALLY? Does anybody know the true SGI-USA population count? Since they are known to put everyone and the family pup besides actual members in a household on the list, who really does know?
Yup, I remember all the shakabuku madness, particularly the February/August rush. The leaders were always soooo happy when it was a successful night and the projections were (close) to being met. And you brought up another truer-than-true fact: A lot of those Gohonzons ended up on the street and in the trash, or forgotten about.
Member Care: If you don't show you are down with The Program, or question The Program---you won't get it.
Yup, I remember all the shakabuku madness, particularly the February/August rush. The leaders were always soooo happy when it was a successful night and the projections were (close) to being met. And you brought up another truer-than-true fact: A lot of those Gohonzons ended up on the street and in the trash, or forgotten about.
Member Care: If you don't show you are down with The Program, or question The Program---you won't get it.
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
TaitenAndProud
()
Date: March 01, 2013 06:48AM
@Hitch--but what are those numbers REALLY? Does anybody know the true SGI-USA population count? Since they are known to put everyone and the family pup besides actual members in a household on the list, who really does know?
@Shavoy--Yup, I remember all the shakabuku madness, particularly the February/August rush. The leaders were always soooo happy when it was a successful night and the projections were (close) to being met. And you brought up another truer-than-true fact: A lot of those Gohonzons ended up on the street and in the trash, or forgotten about.
There is no way of ascertaining the true SGI-USA population count. The cult keeps on its records every single person who ever signed up for a gohonzon, regardless of where they are now. In this respect, it's similar to the Mormons, who keep EVERYONE on file, even if that person has never attended anything other than his own baptism, even if it is *known* that he is now a Methodist or Muslim, until they calculate that this person has reached his 120th birthday (or, according to some sources, 110th). You know, out of sincere concern for that member and being *ready* to welcome him back as soon as he returns! To get your name off their membership rolls, you have to send them a letter demanding it. I believe it's the same in the SGI.
Now, those who have evaluated Mormon attendance statistics suggest that the actual membership is more likely:
"In 2002, LDS unit growth fell further to 0.22%, less than one-seventh of the annual rate of world population growth. Those who insist that the low number of new LDS units being formed is a result of policy changes influencing unit size are uninformed: the average number of LDS members per unit has remained relatively stable, going from 439 per unit in 1973 to 431.7 in 1991 and 437 in 2001."
Hinckley lied about the numbers
"In 1998, President Gordon B. Hinckley stated: “We are experiencing a combined growth of converts and natural increase of some 400,000 a year. Every single year that is the equivalent of 160 new stakes of 2,500 people each.” This statement has been widely quoted as evidence of the Church’s rapid growth. In fact, the Church has never yet experienced a net gain of 400,000 members in a single year, nor has there ever been a year in the history of the Church when 160 or more stakes were formed. The highest stake gains ever were of 142 in 1995 and 146 in 1996, which were up from annual gains of 32-78 over the preceding decade. Over the most recent five-year period forwhich data are available (1998-2003), the Church gained a total of 119 stakes, or an average of only 24 stakes per year. The low number of congregations and stakes being formed reflects fractional retention of converts." [www.mormoncurtain.com]
I suspect that the SGI-USA's position is *identical*.
Over the next eight years, Polygamy Porter (a Mormon poster at the above site) attends the temple for family events, and each time is further perplex at the new ceremony and the changes that occurred in 1990.
RIGHT down to the "1990" detail!!
Who's leaving the church? The young people. In droves. The number of people serving missions is way down because of the high costs of college. The cost of living has increased so much the average family in the church can't afford to send their kid on a mission and pay for college. The church seems to be popular with wealthy people with big egos to stroke. The middle class and the poor are leaving the church.
My father-in-law says the church is heading for another apostasy. He still believes in the doctrine but believes the church has become what Brigham Young said it would become in the last days. Wealthy and full of pride.
What's frustrating is I can't convince these people that the whole thing was false. They believe in Joseph Smith still. Oh well, they are right on the membership decreasing.
Look in the mirror, SGI!
Here is something from 2004, from NPR:
As part of our series on new religious movements, NPR's Mandalit del Barco explores a modern version of Buddhism known as Soka Gakkai. It's an import from Asia, brought to the United States by Japanese war brides. In the 1960s, it caught on with anti-war hippies. Now it has more than 300,000 adherents in the United States, most of them middle class, from all ethnic groups.
[www.npr.org]
Wow - only 300,000 by 2004?? I remember when we were planning on gathering 100,000 members in New Orleans in, what was it, 1991? Only to be told that New Orleans didn't have the infrastructure to handle that many tourists all at once! Perhaps it's more that there weren't that many members...
@Shavoy--Yup, I remember all the shakabuku madness, particularly the February/August rush. The leaders were always soooo happy when it was a successful night and the projections were (close) to being met. And you brought up another truer-than-true fact: A lot of those Gohonzons ended up on the street and in the trash, or forgotten about.
There is no way of ascertaining the true SGI-USA population count. The cult keeps on its records every single person who ever signed up for a gohonzon, regardless of where they are now. In this respect, it's similar to the Mormons, who keep EVERYONE on file, even if that person has never attended anything other than his own baptism, even if it is *known* that he is now a Methodist or Muslim, until they calculate that this person has reached his 120th birthday (or, according to some sources, 110th). You know, out of sincere concern for that member and being *ready* to welcome him back as soon as he returns! To get your name off their membership rolls, you have to send them a letter demanding it. I believe it's the same in the SGI.
Now, those who have evaluated Mormon attendance statistics suggest that the actual membership is more likely:
"In 2002, LDS unit growth fell further to 0.22%, less than one-seventh of the annual rate of world population growth. Those who insist that the low number of new LDS units being formed is a result of policy changes influencing unit size are uninformed: the average number of LDS members per unit has remained relatively stable, going from 439 per unit in 1973 to 431.7 in 1991 and 437 in 2001."
Hinckley lied about the numbers
"In 1998, President Gordon B. Hinckley stated: “We are experiencing a combined growth of converts and natural increase of some 400,000 a year. Every single year that is the equivalent of 160 new stakes of 2,500 people each.” This statement has been widely quoted as evidence of the Church’s rapid growth. In fact, the Church has never yet experienced a net gain of 400,000 members in a single year, nor has there ever been a year in the history of the Church when 160 or more stakes were formed. The highest stake gains ever were of 142 in 1995 and 146 in 1996, which were up from annual gains of 32-78 over the preceding decade. Over the most recent five-year period forwhich data are available (1998-2003), the Church gained a total of 119 stakes, or an average of only 24 stakes per year. The low number of congregations and stakes being formed reflects fractional retention of converts." [www.mormoncurtain.com]
I suspect that the SGI-USA's position is *identical*.
Over the next eight years, Polygamy Porter (a Mormon poster at the above site) attends the temple for family events, and each time is further perplex at the new ceremony and the changes that occurred in 1990.
RIGHT down to the "1990" detail!!
Who's leaving the church? The young people. In droves. The number of people serving missions is way down because of the high costs of college. The cost of living has increased so much the average family in the church can't afford to send their kid on a mission and pay for college. The church seems to be popular with wealthy people with big egos to stroke. The middle class and the poor are leaving the church.
My father-in-law says the church is heading for another apostasy. He still believes in the doctrine but believes the church has become what Brigham Young said it would become in the last days. Wealthy and full of pride.
What's frustrating is I can't convince these people that the whole thing was false. They believe in Joseph Smith still. Oh well, they are right on the membership decreasing.
Look in the mirror, SGI!
Here is something from 2004, from NPR:
As part of our series on new religious movements, NPR's Mandalit del Barco explores a modern version of Buddhism known as Soka Gakkai. It's an import from Asia, brought to the United States by Japanese war brides. In the 1960s, it caught on with anti-war hippies. Now it has more than 300,000 adherents in the United States, most of them middle class, from all ethnic groups.
[www.npr.org]
Wow - only 300,000 by 2004?? I remember when we were planning on gathering 100,000 members in New Orleans in, what was it, 1991? Only to be told that New Orleans didn't have the infrastructure to handle that many tourists all at once! Perhaps it's more that there weren't that many members...
Re: Soka Gakkai International -- SGI
Posted by:
Shavoy
()
Date: March 01, 2013 08:31AM
@Taiten----That convention that was planned for 1991 was the last hurrah--don't think it ever got off the ground because G. Williams was being shown the door, that "rhythm" was his sort of thing. You know, the bigger, the better. Those conventions we did through the 80's (and before) had G.W. stamped all over them.
300,000 in 2004...a lesser amount of members than previously stated on those shakabuku pamphlets, also from the 80's. I remember they stated NSA-USA had 500,000 members.
Your Mormon corrolation is interesting. It's funny how religious organizations pit themselves against each other, you know, "We are the True One", "No, WE are the True One", and their operations are totally similar. Human nature.
300,000 in 2004...a lesser amount of members than previously stated on those shakabuku pamphlets, also from the 80's. I remember they stated NSA-USA had 500,000 members.
Your Mormon corrolation is interesting. It's funny how religious organizations pit themselves against each other, you know, "We are the True One", "No, WE are the True One", and their operations are totally similar. Human nature.
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