@Rothaus-Thanks for your concern about my depression. I have actually been in therapy way before I got into SGI. I was just always seeking something spiritual and this just came upon me. While it's true that a lot of my friends are in the organization, I have two who have quit the organization as well because of the same things that I have chosen to leave. I see these two young women every week so it's comforting to know that I have someone that I can talk to when I am feeling overwhelmed in life. Right now I am a little saddened, and you know what? That's ok, because I know things will get better because I am loved and in a good place right now. Like I said before, I will take it one day at a time.

@Nichijew- I agree. Although I am a little saddened an apprehensive about what's going to happen next, I feel as if my decision was not a "long drawn out detox", especially not this time, because I had been wanting out since the latter part of 2008, and when I left the first time and came back "I was just going through the motions of being in the organization. I was not even angry anymore because I had exhausted myself of all of the reasons as to why I left in the first place. I knew I was done, except I kept going because I was afraid of what others might think and a little scared that something bad would happen. Yet as I mentioned in an earlier post before, in the forefront of my mind, there was always this voice within saying, "You are lying to yourself by being here!! If you refuse to Shakabuku someone because of what this organization stands for, then why are you still here". I am so thankful for that voice of reason because now in my heart, I know that I have done the right thing and I can see right through the B.S.

@Dr.Jesusesqe- Yes I ran into someone at my job yesterday, and although I was afraid to step out on faith I was direct and honest with her when she asked me to come over and chant with her. I told her I took down my Gohonzan and that I was leaving and I just told her all of my reasons.

@Evergreen- Where I live, I am pretty sure that I will run into members at least on a weekly basis. If they have something to say as far as my leaving, then I will know that it's on them and not me.


I am so thankful for this forum. Without it I would be truly lost and as corny as it sound I mean it from the bottom of my heart. As a result, certain words and phrases are tainted for me such as: benefit, life condition, kharma, breakthrough. I know that these are words or phrases that other people use who are not in the organization but I almost want to vomit right now when I hear them. It will take a while for me to get used to them again.

@quietone_- I also agree that some members have it worse than those that are in the organization. I know some members that seemed more depressed than me, almost to the point of being despondent. Another member suffered
so much that when it was time to host the district toso's at his house every Sunday for a month, he would not get out of the bed to let us in.

For most of the time that I was in the org, I encountered internal obstacles to chanting to the scroll and much of the hype. Instead of listening to my heart, I took my resistance as "sansho shima" and fought myself hard all those years. All those years of doubt. My doubts were well founded, but by the time I realized that, I had really wounded my sense of self worth and my sense of reality (Ikeda dictated what our realities were supposed to be, and dictated what we were supposed to dedicate ourselves to). All those years I felt like a failure in the org because I didn't "get" it (faith).

I am still most grateful for this forum.

Sushigrl: "For most of the time that I was in the org, I encountered internal obstacles to chanting to the scroll and much of the hype. Instead of listening to my heart, I took my resistance as "sansho shima" and fought myself hard all those years. All those years of doubt. My doubts were well founded, but by the time I realized that, I had really wounded my sense of self worth and my sense of reality."

Rothaus: "I believe the prime objective for anyone leaving SGI is to get a clear outllook on life again, its a shame if their SGI-experience draws them away from buddhism but to my mind that is secondary as one should become "clean" again. "

Nichijew: "It really doesn't have to be either a long drawn out detox or a depressing experience [leaving the Gakkai]. I was joyful. A big weight was lifted off my chest."

DrJesusEsq: "Actually since I stopped doing anything with SGI, at least I am depending on myself more to change my life and that has been improving."

lthomas: "I knew I was done, except I kept going because I was afraid of what others might think and a little scared that something bad would happen. Yet as I mentioned in an earlier post before, in the forefront of my mind, there was always this voice within saying, "You are lying to yourself by being here!! If you refuse to Shakabuku someone because of what this organization stands for, then why are you still here"."

The common thread here seems to be that most of us knew that there was something really wrong with SGI -- what our leaders were telling us just wasn't adding up. I was very uncomfortable with many things I heard in SGI, and yet it was difficult to leave. I felt that the problem was me...maybe it was just my own sansho shima and inner darkness. Maybe I was just selfish, dumb, faithless and couldn't understand what everyone else seemed to. I worried that bad things would happen to me if I quit -- or at least, I'd never be able to make good things happen in my life.

And yet, once you do leave, it can be very freeing. My life feels more honest, more real now that I'm not fighting myself and trying to convince myself to accept things that just don't feel right! I have more time for the things and people that are important to me. I've also learned that the world hasn't ended because I've left -- and publicly criticized SGI!

I think what I've learned from my own experiences -- and reading your posts -- is that I've got to listen to that voice within myself when it tells me that something isn't right. Maybe some of us thought that something was wrong with us because of that inner voice telling us that something was wrong -- and the truth is, that little nagging inner voice was our best friend, and our strength!

@tsukimoto Yes!! it is so true to listen to your inner-voice when something is not right. If that is one thing that this experience has taught me is to listen to that voice of reason. I can recall all of the times that I went to a leader's meeting and member care seeing members misbehave. I was always upfront and direct with my "sponsor", yet every time all she said was, "well it's only people working out their kharma from past lives" or something of that nature. I would always reply that it was wrong and that this organization was no excuse for anyone to put up with anyone's treatment such as this or that directed towards them". Looking back on it now, I realized that she was trying to keep me in by saying that, "did your mother or father or sister's give up on you when you treated them wrong"? I felt trapped because I had shared so many personal things with her and she knew that I only mistreated my little sister at times because I had suffered at the hands of physical and emotional abuse from both my mother and father, therefore I put up with a lot of crap from people within the organization as a result of this. I was often told that this was my kharma coming back to me. That is how this organization used people they really did prey on our emotions. The favorite phrase for people to use when going through something was " I in the world of hell"(the ten worlds) or I am suffering or struggling. I cannot even bring myself to use these words right now, and will definitely never ever use the words the "ten worlds" anymore. As far as the chanting it helped with my anxiety a little yet I could never concentrate on one thing for more than 10 mins. I never shared this with anyone but I remember a YWD stating that, when we chant without a centered goal in our minds then we are letting the "devilish functions" get to us. I must of rolled my eyes a thousand times, because I knew despite the fact that people chanted for an hour or more I had this feeling in the pit of my stomach that it was impossible for them to concentrate (without any other thoughts popping up into mind that) on that "new car" or "new job.

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lthomas
@tsukimoto Yes!! it is so true to listen to your inner-voice when something is not right. If that is one thing that this experience has taught me is to listen to that voice of reason. I can recall all of the times that I went to a leader's meeting and member care seeing members misbehave. I was always upfront and direct with my "sponsor", yet every time all she said was, "well it's only people working out their kharma from past lives" or something of that nature. I would always reply that it was wrong and that this organization was no excuse for anyone to put up with anyone's treatment such as this or that directed towards them". Looking back on it now, I realized that she was trying to keep me in by saying that, "did your mother or father or sister's give up on you when you treated them wrong"? I felt trapped because I had shared so many personal things with her and she knew that I only mistreated my little sister at times because I had suffered at the hands of physical and emotional abuse from both my mother and father, therefore I put up with a lot of crap from people within the organization as a result of this. I was often told that this was my kharma coming back to me. That is how this organization used people they really did prey on our emotions. The favorite phrase for people to use when going through something was " I in the world of hell"(the ten worlds) or I am suffering or struggling. I cannot even bring myself to use these words right now, and will definitely never ever use the words the "ten worlds" anymore. As far as the chanting it helped with my anxiety a little yet I could never concentrate on one thing for more than 10 mins. I never shared this with anyone but I remember a YWD stating that, when we chant without a centered goal in our minds then we are letting the "devilish functions" get to us. I must of rolled my eyes a thousand times, because I knew despite the fact that people chanted for an hour or more I had this feeling in the pit of my stomach that it was impossible for them to concentrate (without any other thoughts popping up into mind that) on that "new car" or "new job.

Dear lthomas:

There are two types of chanting meditation, the Daimoku of contemplation where you let your thoughts arise and fall away and the Daimoku of prayer. As far as the Daimoku of prayer, it is possible to remain focused when praying for something of deep significance [to you], for example, the death of a family member or best friend, food when there is no bread on the table, or shelter when you have no place to stay. It is next to impossible to remain focused on something of lesser significance for more than twenty minutes or so. 10 minutes of focused concentration is not so unusual for a less than life and death struggle. We can make such things as Buddhahood a life and death struggle but it is not at all wrong to chant as a meditation, without any attachment whatsoever to our thoughts. This nonsense about always chanting with a goal in mind is pure SGI hogwash. Nichiren often said just to chant.

Nichijew

To everyone, my apologies sometimes after I am done writing, I'll forget to preview and not check my errors. What I meant to say in my post before, is that the YWD said that when we chant and our mind starts to wander, it is our "devilish functions" tempting us away from our fortune. @Nichijew- thanks for the heads up on the two types of chanting meditation. That is good food for thought. It has been 48 hours since I took my gohonzan down and so far I am doing well. Also Nichijew, I agree with you as well that, "chanting with a goal in mind is actually hogwash", there were plenty of times when I chanted just because I loved saying the words over and over again and I never had a goal in mind. Also, I cannot tell you how many times my sponsor or some other member gave me a ride to a meeting or came over to chant only because they said that they were," doing this to benefit me (meaning themselves!)". How selfish is that? I know at times that we are supposed to have and altruistic side, and yes it's ok to be selfish (I wish there was another word besides selfish but cannot think of one) and to take care of yourself, however; whenever certain members would say this to me, I knew it was purely selfish because they thought some "conspicuous" or " inconspicuous benefit" was going to come their way. I knew that at times they did not really care how I got to the meetings, it was all for show so that they could claim that they were "boddhisatvas of the earth in which they did. Also there is another thing in which I must note: The members of the SGI had an air of arrogance that was very distinct. I can't quite put my finger on it. It's something that you knew because you feel it in the pit of your stomach. It always made me feel extremely uncomfortable, especially at those huge meetings that were held at huge auditoriums. I hated those. That arrogance that I am talking about was as if the members were cold and without emotions. It was strange and creepy. As a matter of fact I remember two senior leaders getting into an argument with each other at the community center and one of them told the other to shut up because she was talking!! The other member did. I was so embarrassed even though the comment was not directed at me.

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lthomas
@tsukimoto Yes!! it is so true to listen to your inner-voice when something is not right. If that is one thing that this experience has taught me is to listen to that voice of reason. I can recall all of the times that I went to a leader's meeting and member care seeing members misbehave. I was always upfront and direct with my "sponsor", yet every time all she said was, "well it's only people working out their kharma from past lives" or something of that nature. I would always reply that it was wrong and that this organization was no excuse for anyone to put up with anyone's treatment such as this or that directed towards them". Looking back on it now, I realized that she was trying to keep me in by saying that, "did your mother or father or sister's give up on you when you treated them wrong"? I felt trapped because I had shared so many personal things with her and she knew that I only mistreated my little sister at times because I had suffered at the hands of physical and emotional abuse from both my mother and father, therefore I put up with a lot of crap from people within the organization as a result of this. I was often told that this was my kharma coming back to me. That is how this organization used people they really did prey on our emotions. The favorite phrase for people to use when going through something was " I in the world of hell"(the ten worlds) or I am suffering or struggling. I cannot even bring myself to use these words right now, and will definitely never ever use the words the "ten worlds" anymore. As far as the chanting it helped with my anxiety a little yet I could never concentrate on one thing for more than 10 mins. I never shared this with anyone but I remember a YWD stating that, when we chant without a centered goal in our minds then we are letting the "devilish functions" get to us. I must of rolled my eyes a thousand times, because I knew despite the fact that people chanted for an hour or more I had this feeling in the pit of my stomach that it was impossible for them to concentrate (without any other thoughts popping up into mind that) on that "new car" or "new job.

Upon reading this I felt as though they were mindf-----g you. I was like what the hell has one issue got to do with the answer she is seeking about. Just answer my question about the behavior I am observing in other members! I don't need guidance or someone to tell me what karma I have to work out or what their karma is... When someone is behaving poorly and especially when this is unacceptable as a leader/member care advisor, it is praiseworthy that you had the compassion to call them out on it (their improper behavior).

@evergreen- my sponsor was a very toxic person. As a matter-of-fact my mother and sister never liked her and were very suspicious of her from the beginning. It would take to long to explain in just one post, and at times she would go back and forth-one minute complaining about the organization and Ikeda and the next acting like a hard core member. When I stopped practicing the first time and I told her, she tried to bring me down by using a lot of things against me that I had told her in the past when I was "suffering". I stood my ground and knew that I could never become friends with this person ever again, even when I went back to the practice. And yes she was mindf----- me. As a matter of fact I remember telling her about these guys in my neighborhood that called me a b--ch just because I would not give them my phone number, her reply was "well don't you think that you should use your buddha nature and introduce them to buddhism"? I was shocked!!! I told her no that I would never do anything like this and did not care how much "shakabuku was important, there was no way I would do something like that.

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lthomas
Looking back on it now, I realized that she was trying to keep me in by saying that, "did your mother or father or sister's give up on you when you treated them wrong"? I felt trapped because I had shared so many personal things with her and she knew that I only mistreated my little sister at times because I had suffered at the hands of physical and emotional abuse from both my mother and father, therefore I put up with a lot of crap from people within the organization as a result of this. I was often told that this was my kharma coming back to me. That is how this organization used people they really did prey on our emotions.

Your leader was being very manipulative when she said these things --getting you to confide in them and then using that information to try to stop you from questioning leaders' actions in the organization. This is a common practice in cults -- get members to make confessions, then use that information to manipulate or even blackmail the member to do what the leaders want.

Quote: Nichijew: There are two types of chanting meditation, the Daimoku of contemplation where you let your thoughts arise and fall away and the Daimoku of prayer. As far as the Daimoku of prayer, it is possible to remain focused when praying for something of deep significance [to you], for example, the death of a family member or best friend, food when there is no bread on the table, or shelter when you have no place to stay. It is next to impossible to remain focused on something of lesser significance for more than twenty minutes or so. 10 minutes of focused concentration is not so unusual for a less than life and death struggle. We can make such things as Buddhahood a life and death struggle but it is not at all wrong to chant as a meditation, without any attachment whatsoever to our thoughts. This nonsense about always chanting with a goal in mind is pure SGI hogwash. Nichiren often said just to chant.

Nichijew

Nichijew, thank you for posting this. I often find that I can chant longer and feel more refreshed when I don't have a goal. If I have a goal when I chant, it often feels like the daimoku is a means to an end -- I've got to get through X number of hours of chanting to get what I want. And then what happens if what I chanted for doesn't happen?

If I can just chant without a goal, then my chanting can just be an enjoyable end in itself.

SGI makes daimoku -- and practicing this Buddhism far more complicated than it has to be.