@Dioforever, You quoted Dr. Lawrence Carter that Ikeda, "is a solid human being, I feel that Gandhi King,and Jesus are living inside Dr Ikeda.'' Then you wrote, "this is not to be taken to mean he is Jesus. Dr Carter is expressing his firm conviction that Dr Ikeda is a true modern day peace builder and educator...hope this helps." I never understood the nature of Dr. Carter's adulation of Ikeda. How is he a "peace-builder" or even an educator? Just because someone writes peace proposals, that never get taken seriously, does not qualify him as a peace builder. How has Ikeda contributed to world peace, just by getting people to chant? Then you must credit every religious leader for propagating their faith and refer to them as peace builders. Furthermore, I see no proof that getting people to chant makes them or the world more peaceful. I also have a problem with Ikeda constantly being referred to as an educator? How is this so? What are his credentials? Where did he teach? What did he teach? How was any of that better than what was currently available? I don't mean to be cynical but just because you and your organization's members and publications trumpet your "achievements" does not mean you have actually achieved anything. Just because you have tea with famous people does not make you their equal. Too many Gakkai members accept Ikeda's supposed roles and greatness uncritically. Too many credit him with re-establishing a relationship between Japan and China. Is that the peace activity they are constantly referring to? Anyone who has read a little or been trained adequately knows that Ikeda did not do this single-handedly. History and politics are not that simple. Furthermore, only SGI publications seem to give him this credit. Why?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2010 10:57PM by doubtful.

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Dioforever
The talking head that you are refering to was Dr larence carter,,the quote was,"he is a solid human being,i feel that ghandi king,and jesus are liveing inside dr ikeda'' this is not to be taken to mean he is jesus,Dr carter is expresing his firm coviction that Dr ikeda is a true modernday peace bulider and educator...hope this helps.

Thanks Dioforever for clarifying what the quote was,
But i feel that it is still mainting that Ikeda should be put on an equal footing with G,K,J, so i still think the G,K,I exhibition is a brainwashing tool.
That is definatley how i felt, when i went to the area meeting that it was shown at.

also Ikeda as 'peace builder' chanting for the Destruction of Nikken and Nichiren Shoshu, err i don't think so. though he did try and educate the Gakkai into that way of thinking!

Off topic 'Dio(RIP) does indeed rock' if that's what your name refers to!

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tsukimoto

It's important to appreciate and value what a good teacher did for you -- but does that teacher expect you to devote the rest of your life to him, or her? To follow what he or she says, even after you are grown and out of school? To hang around them constantly, telling them how wonderful they are?

I had a really great eleventh-grade English teacher. However, I don't think she ever wanted or expected me to devote the rest of my life to following her. I think her goal was that I learn to write clearly and correctly, and critically evaluate what I read -- so that I could achieve my OWN goals for further education and a career.

That's the exact opposite of Ikeda's mentor-disciple teaching. The disciple does not get to take the teaching, and become independent; disciples always follow the mentor and always "owe" the mentor. There is no graduation.

Nichiren Daishonin himself said, "Follow the law and not the person."

In all fairness, there are different levels of teacher, and I do believe that for many, a teacher who brings the light of genuine spirituality into one's personal darkness may deserve a bit more reverence and remembrance than the one who interpreted Keats or taught you cursive writing. However, I think that what so many people object to about Ikeda is that he sets himself up not just as teacher, but as the one and only route to enlightenment, in apparent contradiction to Nichiren himself. It's frankly scary to watch so many people willingly throw away their ability to reason for this person, gradually permitting themselves to become more and more despotic in their thinking and behavior toward those who question Ikeda and the org. From what other mindset could the following statement (as referenced by Morgaine on page 231 of this forum), and so many like it, come from?

"For us, as practitioners of Nichiren Buddhism, mastering our minds means basing ourselves on the Gohonzon and Nichiren’s writings. And in Buddhism, it is the teacher or mentor who puts the teachings into practice that helps us connect to the Law. Mastering our minds means having a sincere seeking spirit in faith based on the shared commitment of mentor and disciple, and not being ruled by arrogant egoism or self-centeredness."

Oh, wait…maybe they're talking about some OTHER "mentor" than Ikeda, and some OTHER "disciple" than Average Joe Member…right?

I think it's useful to point out that the words above are immediately followed with this:

"Nichiren highlights the importance of living with inner mastery—mastery based on the Law—in the following passage: “Whatever trouble occurs, regard it as no more than a dream, and think only of the Lotus Sutra” (WND- 1, 502)." […]

which is followed in the next paragraph by:

"In the present age, we of the Soka Gakkai have been dedicating ourselves to mastering our minds through single-minded commitment to the Lotus Sutra (Nam-myoho-renge-kyo). As a result, we are showing magnificent actual proof of victory. There are now countless heroic members—ordinary people exerting themselves valiantly in their Buddhist practice—in Japan and around the world. They are truly treasures of kosen-rufu and treasures of humanity. Basing themselves on the Law and embodying the spirit
ransformed their karma and established a life- state of unshakable happiness. "[…]

(all from Page 53-54 of the 2010 Introductory Exam Study Guide)


Over and over again, the writings and thoughts of Nichiren are co-opted and twisted around to equate to "mentor/disciple," which, when used by the SGI means "devotion to Daisaku Ikeda," which circles back around to, "the only way to be heroic, valiant and okay is to give all your time and a lot of money to the Soka Gakkai,because to do otherwise is to be ruled by arrogant egoism or self-centeredness." The irony, of course, is in the fact that the real "arrogant egoism" is displayed by SGI and Ikeda himself, not by those who resist such distortions.

On the Gohonzon – I came from a different era – I practiced for almost a decade without a Gohonzon, I only heard tails about this relic – I still chanted and we had study and meetings – it was all good – after that I got my Gohonzon and I must say things were more or less the same – It did bring me more into focus for that is what it was designed to do - however I did fine over these many years that too many people misconstrued the Gohonzon as some type of magic scroll and the butsudan as a magic box – members refer to the Gohonzon as a living being – and that their practice and benefit will improve if they get a bigger Gohonzon and a more extravagant butsudan - This of course is not so. And even after you try to enlighten them they will agree with you and then go right back to their programming. I remember well back in the day that SGI would hand out Gohonzon like crazy – and for a lot of new members back then were told to chant for what you want - I was shocked @ this type of marketing – So today I am not to shocked when a member gets up and says that the Gohonzon gave them a benefit or changed their karma not much Buddhism wisdom in this concept ; )

Guys!

And thats mainly directed towards those following the thread – and I do get the impression regarding the latest 'arrivals' that there must be quite a few 'just' reading this thread.

In my opinion one does not even have to get too hypothetical on the master/disciple issue. Even in our culture we have the tradition of a master and an apprentice. The relationship is one of working SIDE BY SIDE personally. If the master has any integrity his objective will be that the apprentice will learn the tricks of the trade properly and one day may even be a master of the trade in his/her own right. No adulation and so forth – respect yes, nothing less nothing more.

Even here in Europe there seems to be growing concern about the situation – too long before my own departure from SGI I hoped for a reform within SGI, this will not happen as things will become worse. So vote with your feet !

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BeingAdagio
In all fairness, there are different levels of teacher, and I do believe that for many, a teacher who brings the light of genuine spirituality into one's personal darkness may deserve a bit more reverence and remembrance than the one who interpreted Keats or taught you cursive writing. However, I think that what so many people object to about Ikeda is that he sets himself up not just as teacher, but as the one and only route to enlightenment, in apparent contradiction to Nichiren himself. It's frankly scary to watch so many people willingly throw away their ability to reason for this person, gradually permitting themselves to become more and more despotic in their thinking and behavior toward those who question Ikeda and the org.

Over and over again, the writings and thoughts of Nichiren are co-opted and twisted around to equate to "mentor/disciple," which, when used by the SGI means "devotion to Daisaku Ikeda," which circles back around to, "the only way to be heroic, valiant and okay is to give all your time and a lot of money to the Soka Gakkai,because to do otherwise is to be ruled by arrogant egoism or self-centeredness." The irony, of course, is in the fact that the real "arrogant egoism" is displayed by SGI and Ikeda himself, not by those who resist such distortions.

I agree with your whole post, Adagio, but especially this part. I couldn't accept that Ikeda set himself up as the only path to enlightenment -- and that so many members just accept that, not only unquestioningly, but eagerly. There was some discussion, though, of Ikeda's charisma. I liked what a poster named "Corboy" said in another thread: that a teacher's charisma can be a terrible distraction from what should be the focus: the teachings. This is often a red flag -- a charismatic group leader who claims to have some special truth that nobody else does, in this case, mentor/disciple.

Someone else pointed out that charisma is not just limited to great men, and women -- con artists and other criminals can also possess great charm and charisma. It's how they get their prey to trust them.

According to the great sociologist, Max Weber, "On the basis of the belief in legitimacy, there are three ideal types of rulership: traditional, charismatic and legal rulership.

Traditional leadership (rulership) is the belief of the people in a traditional routine, the most important aspect being patriarchalism. This is the rulership system of monarchs.

"The second type of leadership is termed charismatic rulership whereby charisma is rationalized through methodical and codified means, it is called 'virtuoso charisma. '" This is the leadership rationale in the Soka Gakkai and fascism.

Lastly, there is legal leadership which is most often based on a constitution or other impersonal laws. Pure Democracy, Republicanism and even Communism are are examples of a legal leadership, according to Weber.

Leadership, as taught in the Lotus Sutra and by Nichiren, is a type of legal leadership. It is a system based on the Buddha's Law whose constitution is the Lotus Sutra and whose articles are the writings of Nichiren Daishonin. Those who most closely demonstrate a bodily reading of the Lotus Sutra are leaders. Nichiren teaches that, should these persons be a priests, they are to be High Ministers to the secular leader whose authority too, is based on a bodily reading of the Lotus Sutra.

Buku

@SecretSquirrel, You wrote, "just letting you all know that I won't continue on this board because I see some things in the messages here which are truly negative and even disturbing. 1. There are many messages which interpret SGI issues and actions with pure conjecture without any basis in reality - to me there is more than enough factual issues with the SGI and this is exactly what I sometimes experienced in the SGI, jumping to conclusions about members and their situations. 2. There are some with agendas of proselytizing and maybe other hidden agendas - thank you, but there are many other sites for information on alternatives and I am tired of manipulation. 3. Finally, most disturbing to me is the recent discussion of misfortune of SGI members citing names and with editorial description - this is the exact same behavior people have decried here and I find it offensive."
I am sorry you feel this way. If you read most or all of the posts you will find variety. I and a few others have tried to point out SGI's strong points. I think that if some of us sound negative at times it's because we have been frustrated in our attempts to improve SGI while we were in it. Many who brought their concerns to SGI members/leaders were shut down or shouted out. Keep in mind that many of us practiced for a long time, 21 years in my case. Some were even born into the practice. Few of the posters were in for fewer than five years. This suggests that many of us really wanted our practice with the SGI to be meaningful. We did have what they call "seeking spirit" even when we discovered that they really don't mean it. Because we were passionate about our practice and membership some of us are passionate about our departure or recovery from the experience. You think it was tasteless for us to post the names of leaders who met with tragedy, but you should remember that many members have been repeatedly told that they would meet misfortune for leaving the organization or the practice. This was so real that it kept many from leaving much sooner. Consequently, it is necessary to include names of leaders because otherwise it would sound like hearsay, like something unsubstantiated. True, at times this forum may be a bit negative and some might sound as if they are trying to recruit people into other sects or faiths, but we are always free to skip over those posts. I write all of this because for me RRI has been indispensable in aiding my departure and recovery from SGI. There is a degree of critical thinking, knowledge, and experience that many of the members share which never occurred in SGI meetings. Although some don't agree with me at times, I continue to hold onto the points of view I value and I don't feel pressured to renounce them. There are a lot of intelligent, strong personalities here and for that I am grateful. For what it's worth I hope you will stick around or communicate with some of us via PM.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2010 11:28AM by doubtful.

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From the Fraught With Peril Website, Kempon Hokke blog, August 21, 2010, Mark Rogow

Further misfortunes of Soka Gakkai leaders.

[fraughtwithperil.com]

@secret squirrel

I don't think tsukimoto posted this article with the motives you attribute. The content of the discussion was that whether you are a "strong believer" or a backslider (like me) life is not fair, and by somehow feeling you are "special" so those misfortunes don't find you is just self deluding.

I recall a story about the buddha in which a woman whose son had just died approached him and asked if he could raise the dead. He said he could, but before he could do the miracle she would have to go to a house where death had never touched and obtain a mustard seed. She felt that was an easy job and took off to do it quickly and bring back her beloved son. As she went from house to house she discovered it wasn't that easy. At every house there had been death, old people, babies, etc. all had been touched by death in one way or another.

When she returned to the buddha she was infuriated and said "you knew I wouldn't find a house where death hadn't touched - you deceived me" to which he replied brushing a tear from his eye "you needed to understand that death is a part of life and that is the lot of us all". (or something to that effect, fading memory of old age :-) )

So that list that was posted merely pointed out that even the most pious people have had misfortune.

Wakatta

Don't watch Glenn Beck, but the Colbert Report has shown many clips of Glenn Beck constantly dropping the names, and associating himself with Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Jesus, George Washington, and others.

Its a common technique, used by wannabe leaders to link themselves to other famed leaders.

In the LGAT seminar circles, they do it in more sophisticated ways, by invoking the ideas people have in their MINDS of those great leaders, and then simply associating themselves with them, with repetition, and visual imagery.
Personality Branding.

Ikeda and the SGI marketers, have been using those techniques for many years.
To outsiders, it seems absolutely ridiculous.
But on true believers, it can work.