Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
wayfarerfree
()
Date: January 22, 2010 10:15PM
@DavidM
I hope that having your post put on the thread proves to you that you have not been banned as you thought and have told other people.
If you have left the SGI, then good for you, in my opinion.
Anyone who values the truth , and human dignity should leave such an organisation.
As I said in my reply to your PM, however, I found it more than a little dubious that someone who was intially "completely happy within SGI" suddenly broadcasts (after criticism of your initial stance), two days later, that they were "leaving". If you are, or have "left", then, as I said, good for you, thats your decision, if its true, I think its a good one. Since it sounds like you have certainly been a lot luckier in your experiences than other people, I would be incredibly grateful for this. Your ties with other people in The Cult, are still yours to resolve, however. I hope you are as successful in your dialogue with your YMD leader as you are with your retreat from the doctrine of SGI. Im sure he'll understand your reasons and respect your desicion to leave the cult.
For my part, though, I was told by other Youth Division leaders in the UK(I would like to add) that such views and actions would mean I was "betraying SGI" (not even betraying Buddhism, just "betraying SGI", ie - the organisation), and that, by choosing not to have the Gohonzon in my life "I would live in hell" (exact words quoted)...after being told beforeI recieved Gohonzon that it was utterly fine to "just try it out" and "stop whenever, or leave whenever I wanted". Once you're "in the club" though, its a completely different story. And very hard to just simply get shot of the pests altogether, as my recent experiences have proven to me. I hope my message to The Cult members was relayed accurately, because any further contact is going to result in the Police being involved (this was the advice given to me by the Police themselves).
I would request though that, since you have no need of my offer to post your PMs to me now, that you cease PM'ing me.
Your posts seem to be getting onto the thread now, so problem solved.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2010 10:39PM by wayfarerfree.
I hope that having your post put on the thread proves to you that you have not been banned as you thought and have told other people.
If you have left the SGI, then good for you, in my opinion.
Anyone who values the truth , and human dignity should leave such an organisation.
As I said in my reply to your PM, however, I found it more than a little dubious that someone who was intially "completely happy within SGI" suddenly broadcasts (after criticism of your initial stance), two days later, that they were "leaving". If you are, or have "left", then, as I said, good for you, thats your decision, if its true, I think its a good one. Since it sounds like you have certainly been a lot luckier in your experiences than other people, I would be incredibly grateful for this. Your ties with other people in The Cult, are still yours to resolve, however. I hope you are as successful in your dialogue with your YMD leader as you are with your retreat from the doctrine of SGI. Im sure he'll understand your reasons and respect your desicion to leave the cult.
For my part, though, I was told by other Youth Division leaders in the UK(I would like to add) that such views and actions would mean I was "betraying SGI" (not even betraying Buddhism, just "betraying SGI", ie - the organisation), and that, by choosing not to have the Gohonzon in my life "I would live in hell" (exact words quoted)...after being told beforeI recieved Gohonzon that it was utterly fine to "just try it out" and "stop whenever, or leave whenever I wanted". Once you're "in the club" though, its a completely different story. And very hard to just simply get shot of the pests altogether, as my recent experiences have proven to me. I hope my message to The Cult members was relayed accurately, because any further contact is going to result in the Police being involved (this was the advice given to me by the Police themselves).
I would request though that, since you have no need of my offer to post your PMs to me now, that you cease PM'ing me.
Your posts seem to be getting onto the thread now, so problem solved.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2010 10:39PM by wayfarerfree.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
Rothaus
()
Date: January 22, 2010 11:56PM
I think one should give DavidM the benfit of the doubt that he got the phrasing wrong the first time around. He sent me private messages too.
For most of us here it took a while to to be able to look behind the scence. Some of the mechanism we were exposed to just became more evident to us after some time had gone buy. In retrospective I used ti defend SGI myself - even though I had doubts.
For most of us here it took a while to to be able to look behind the scence. Some of the mechanism we were exposed to just became more evident to us after some time had gone buy. In retrospective I used ti defend SGI myself - even though I had doubts.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
wayfarerfree
()
Date: January 23, 2010 02:12AM
I hope this site has, sincerely assisted someone in this manner, ie, of helping them to see clearly and unfettered by dogma and cult-spiel.
When the bubble bursts, its hard to return to the ways you have been used to in SGI, and of that, Im glad!
I would expect much more attention from SGI, after you've made yr intentions to leave clear to them, if you have been closely involved, I wish you luck. It took me a year to get my thoughts and objections clear, after having a year of increasing doubt, and a final confusing year, of making the final connections, and it was then that I noticed just how they had got their hooks in, and that was when the courage was required. Because its big void to fill, in your heart. There is a danger of trying to fill that void immiediately, when you are still vulnerable. The sudden loss of the social ties, or, like Byrd, the "closing of the ranks ceremony" and back-stabbing, often from people you have thought of as friends. I take my hat off to people like Evergreen and Sushigrl, whom I think were much much deeper enmeshed in SGI than I was. I was "in" for 4 years, and that was hard enough.
After all, it is something that you have allowed into your trust, put at the centre of your life, and freely allowed under your skin.
I tried to practise, "independantly", but then found I wasnt fond of the whole idea of it at all anymore, independant or not, but thats just my take on it.
SGI's take on Buddhism has really turned me off Nichiren Buddhism, and yet Im learning now just how much they, AND Nichiren Shoshu have altered its message. But, like Sushigrl said just previously, Im tired of ALL the rivalry between ALL the Nichiren schools, its become very draining, and an utter turn-off.
I will say this, though, I cant believe, after only recently deciding to utterly break away from SGI 100%, how much better I feel - in terms of clear thought and self-esteem. So the confusion and doubt DOES go away. Ive encountered the old SGI inspired fear and dogma trying to get in my thoughts, but Ive been able to get into a routine of stamping them out before they can get their way, it gets easier, as time goes by.
Ye Gods, to anyone thats never been involved, this must all seem so OTT, and so far removed from coffee and biscuits front room Gongyo and discussion meetings, which, by the way, is another very interesting point...did anyone ever try to really have an open discussion meeting with honest and original topics or seeking questions that had nothing to do with Ikeda-ism? If so, how far did they get? Did anyone try asking about the tabboo issues "of which we do not speak" (coughs behind hand - making friends with cough cough priesthood). I wish I had done so. I was too concerned I'd be accused of "upsetting the unity" etc.
(chuckles..."Gag-kai" yep, that I like. You should get a lil prize for that one!)
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2010 02:25AM by wayfarerfree.
When the bubble bursts, its hard to return to the ways you have been used to in SGI, and of that, Im glad!
I would expect much more attention from SGI, after you've made yr intentions to leave clear to them, if you have been closely involved, I wish you luck. It took me a year to get my thoughts and objections clear, after having a year of increasing doubt, and a final confusing year, of making the final connections, and it was then that I noticed just how they had got their hooks in, and that was when the courage was required. Because its big void to fill, in your heart. There is a danger of trying to fill that void immiediately, when you are still vulnerable. The sudden loss of the social ties, or, like Byrd, the "closing of the ranks ceremony" and back-stabbing, often from people you have thought of as friends. I take my hat off to people like Evergreen and Sushigrl, whom I think were much much deeper enmeshed in SGI than I was. I was "in" for 4 years, and that was hard enough.
After all, it is something that you have allowed into your trust, put at the centre of your life, and freely allowed under your skin.
I tried to practise, "independantly", but then found I wasnt fond of the whole idea of it at all anymore, independant or not, but thats just my take on it.
SGI's take on Buddhism has really turned me off Nichiren Buddhism, and yet Im learning now just how much they, AND Nichiren Shoshu have altered its message. But, like Sushigrl said just previously, Im tired of ALL the rivalry between ALL the Nichiren schools, its become very draining, and an utter turn-off.
I will say this, though, I cant believe, after only recently deciding to utterly break away from SGI 100%, how much better I feel - in terms of clear thought and self-esteem. So the confusion and doubt DOES go away. Ive encountered the old SGI inspired fear and dogma trying to get in my thoughts, but Ive been able to get into a routine of stamping them out before they can get their way, it gets easier, as time goes by.
Ye Gods, to anyone thats never been involved, this must all seem so OTT, and so far removed from coffee and biscuits front room Gongyo and discussion meetings, which, by the way, is another very interesting point...did anyone ever try to really have an open discussion meeting with honest and original topics or seeking questions that had nothing to do with Ikeda-ism? If so, how far did they get? Did anyone try asking about the tabboo issues "of which we do not speak" (coughs behind hand - making friends with cough cough priesthood). I wish I had done so. I was too concerned I'd be accused of "upsetting the unity" etc.
(chuckles..."Gag-kai" yep, that I like. You should get a lil prize for that one!)
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2010 02:25AM by wayfarerfree.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
SGBye
()
Date: January 23, 2010 02:26AM
I just finished reading "Cartwheels in a Sari" by Jayanti Tamm that evergreen mentioned in an earlier post. Being a "fortune baby" of SGI, I found it to be a fascinating read. I had been completely ignorant of Sri Chinmoy until now, but there was a lot about his cult that sounded awfully familiar. So much so that I wrote down all the similarites his cult has to the SGI. The list is pretty staggering:
1. Chinmoy was referred to as "Guru," while Ikeda is called "Sensei," with both words meaning "teacher."
2. Chinmoy gave his disciples "spiritual names." Ikeda is asked by some parents to name their newborns (I was fortunate enough to receive this honor!).
3. Chinmoy's once-small group became a booming organization, which registered itself as a non-profit, tax-free church.
4. Chinmoy's disciples attended so many meditation meetings that their lives outside of the organization was almost non-existent.
5. Men and women had to sit separately at Chinmoy's meetings. When Ikeda holds large meetings in Japan, men and women sit separately.
6. Chinmoy had personal bodyguards. I think it's safe to say that some of the men in Ikeda's humongous entourage are security guards.
7. Disciples put up numerous photos of Chinmoy in their homes. That's pretty standard in SGI homes. My former district leader had about 8 photos of Ikeda in his living room (and just one photo of his 2 children).
8. Many programs, places and awards were named in Chinmoy's honor (such as their Aum Center becoming the Sri Chinmoy Center). Ikeda does this constantly. He most recently named a young women's group the Ikeda Kayo-kai. Their former name of just Kayo-kai wasn't good enough, I guess.
9. Chinmoy's disciples had ranks, much like the SGI members' leadership positions.
10. Aggressive recruiting. A quote from the book: "Numbers mattered."
11. When one of Chinmoy's disciples left the group, they were cut off. If a member in the SGI is deemed a "troublemaker" (i.e. someone who questions leaders too much), they are cut off.
12. Chinmoy wrote many books/poems, with accusations of them being written by ghost writers.
13. Disciples wore matching colored outfits for public events. Remember the all-white NSA uniforms in the '80's?
14. Quote from book: "His disciples, through their strong oneness with him..." The SGI is all about "the spirit of oneness of mentor and disciple" these days.
15. Chinmoy sought the Nobel Peace Prize and used the U.N. to achieve it. I suspect that the SGI is an NGO in the U.N. for the same reason.
16. Chinmoy sought endorsements and praise from celebrities and world leaders, which would be printed up and distributed repeatedly. Ikeda has done this most recently with Orlando Bloom. Chinmoy and Ikeda both met with Gorbachev, with plenty of photos distributed for the world to see.
17. Chinmoy had lots of glossy material printed up with quotes from celebrities and world leaders promoting him as an "Ambassador of Peace."
18. Chinmoy's disciples made regular donations to the organization.
19. Chinmoy held "Peace Concerts."
20. Chinmoy would send out a "New Year's Message" to his disciples.
21. In the book, Chinmoy tells the author, "You were chosen by me to be my nearest and dearest disciple to achieve victory here on earth." SGI is obsessed with "achieving victory."
22. Worldwide numbers of disciples were fastiduously tracked by Chinmoy through mandatory progress reports.
23. Some of Chinmoy's left their full inheritance to his organization.
24. Death of longtime Chinmoy disciples were quickly swept under the rug. The same thing happened in the SGI several years ago concerning Angela Olivera. Angela and her husband Pasqual were flamenco dancers who traveled the world, performing for Ikeda. Pasqual fought cancer and eventually succumbed to it. Tragically, Angela died less than a year after that. While Pasqual's death was widely reported, Angela's death was not. Many hardcore SGI-ers didn't even know she had passed. SGI probably viewed her death as too tragic to put a positive spin on it, so it was just brushed under the rug.
25. Chinmoy had charges of various sexual relationships with disciples, echoing the charges of rape against Ikeda.
26. Quote from book: "I'd memorized endless classic Indian tales about masters and disciples that Guru narrated over the years." Ikeda constantly repeats the stories of his mentor and disciple relationship with Toda.
1. Chinmoy was referred to as "Guru," while Ikeda is called "Sensei," with both words meaning "teacher."
2. Chinmoy gave his disciples "spiritual names." Ikeda is asked by some parents to name their newborns (I was fortunate enough to receive this honor!).
3. Chinmoy's once-small group became a booming organization, which registered itself as a non-profit, tax-free church.
4. Chinmoy's disciples attended so many meditation meetings that their lives outside of the organization was almost non-existent.
5. Men and women had to sit separately at Chinmoy's meetings. When Ikeda holds large meetings in Japan, men and women sit separately.
6. Chinmoy had personal bodyguards. I think it's safe to say that some of the men in Ikeda's humongous entourage are security guards.
7. Disciples put up numerous photos of Chinmoy in their homes. That's pretty standard in SGI homes. My former district leader had about 8 photos of Ikeda in his living room (and just one photo of his 2 children).
8. Many programs, places and awards were named in Chinmoy's honor (such as their Aum Center becoming the Sri Chinmoy Center). Ikeda does this constantly. He most recently named a young women's group the Ikeda Kayo-kai. Their former name of just Kayo-kai wasn't good enough, I guess.
9. Chinmoy's disciples had ranks, much like the SGI members' leadership positions.
10. Aggressive recruiting. A quote from the book: "Numbers mattered."
11. When one of Chinmoy's disciples left the group, they were cut off. If a member in the SGI is deemed a "troublemaker" (i.e. someone who questions leaders too much), they are cut off.
12. Chinmoy wrote many books/poems, with accusations of them being written by ghost writers.
13. Disciples wore matching colored outfits for public events. Remember the all-white NSA uniforms in the '80's?
14. Quote from book: "His disciples, through their strong oneness with him..." The SGI is all about "the spirit of oneness of mentor and disciple" these days.
15. Chinmoy sought the Nobel Peace Prize and used the U.N. to achieve it. I suspect that the SGI is an NGO in the U.N. for the same reason.
16. Chinmoy sought endorsements and praise from celebrities and world leaders, which would be printed up and distributed repeatedly. Ikeda has done this most recently with Orlando Bloom. Chinmoy and Ikeda both met with Gorbachev, with plenty of photos distributed for the world to see.
17. Chinmoy had lots of glossy material printed up with quotes from celebrities and world leaders promoting him as an "Ambassador of Peace."
18. Chinmoy's disciples made regular donations to the organization.
19. Chinmoy held "Peace Concerts."
20. Chinmoy would send out a "New Year's Message" to his disciples.
21. In the book, Chinmoy tells the author, "You were chosen by me to be my nearest and dearest disciple to achieve victory here on earth." SGI is obsessed with "achieving victory."
22. Worldwide numbers of disciples were fastiduously tracked by Chinmoy through mandatory progress reports.
23. Some of Chinmoy's left their full inheritance to his organization.
24. Death of longtime Chinmoy disciples were quickly swept under the rug. The same thing happened in the SGI several years ago concerning Angela Olivera. Angela and her husband Pasqual were flamenco dancers who traveled the world, performing for Ikeda. Pasqual fought cancer and eventually succumbed to it. Tragically, Angela died less than a year after that. While Pasqual's death was widely reported, Angela's death was not. Many hardcore SGI-ers didn't even know she had passed. SGI probably viewed her death as too tragic to put a positive spin on it, so it was just brushed under the rug.
25. Chinmoy had charges of various sexual relationships with disciples, echoing the charges of rape against Ikeda.
26. Quote from book: "I'd memorized endless classic Indian tales about masters and disciples that Guru narrated over the years." Ikeda constantly repeats the stories of his mentor and disciple relationship with Toda.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
rattyboy
()
Date: January 23, 2010 02:39AM
I'm feeling good trying some other meditative practices and making some nice connections with non- Gawk-eye members. I still feel stuck however, linking my good feelings/ fortune or calm peaceful feelings to either lingering 'benefit' on one hand, or misperception on the other. Like maybe I'm drifting. And if a few bad things happen soon they won't be obstacles, they'll be some sort of retribution. I'm sick of this balancing game! Unbalancing, really.
Besides posts in this forum, I have found some online videos about cults helpful, but even more exposing are pro-Gakkai or produced by Gakkai pieces. A comedian talking about chanting, in an intended favorable way, demonstrated how neurotic and upset chanters get. Shlock the Era! videos O.M.G.!
Recently, while watching a documentary with a friend, I pointed out a quote at the beginning by Daisaku Ikeda, Japanese Philosopher. The producer or someone involved in the production must be an SGI member. HAS to be. I challenge anyone to find some writer in any medium who has sought out and presented a quote by this man without some urging by SGI.
Besides posts in this forum, I have found some online videos about cults helpful, but even more exposing are pro-Gakkai or produced by Gakkai pieces. A comedian talking about chanting, in an intended favorable way, demonstrated how neurotic and upset chanters get. Shlock the Era! videos O.M.G.!
Recently, while watching a documentary with a friend, I pointed out a quote at the beginning by Daisaku Ikeda, Japanese Philosopher. The producer or someone involved in the production must be an SGI member. HAS to be. I challenge anyone to find some writer in any medium who has sought out and presented a quote by this man without some urging by SGI.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
SGBye
()
Date: January 23, 2010 04:09AM
To add to my post above, let me just say that there are, of course, many differences between Chinmoy's and Ikeda's cults. While Chinmoy restricted his disciples from marrying, watching TV, dancing, etc., Ikeda has never done such things. Also, the SGI is much more organized. SGI meetings are usually restricted to last no more than 90 minutes, while Chinmoy's meditation meetings went into all hours of the night, totally at his whim. However, there are just too many similarities to ignore. Yes, some of them are trivial, but many show a very manipulative streak. If an SGI-er isn't totally convinced that the SGI is a cult from the list of similarities, it should at least give them pause for thought and/or concern.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
sushigrl
()
Date: January 23, 2010 04:23AM
That IS fascinating SGBye. I was in Chicago at the time of Angela's death and the buzz was that she accomplished her mission for Cousin Rufus and was in need of a new more healthy body to work for that cause. Therefore, her death was ruled as OK for us to receive. After all, she was such a devoted devotee there couldn't possibly be any other explanation....BUT, when other not so hot members die, it is of course punishment....
I know that sounds a bit crass, but in hindsight, SGI spins everything that way. Absolutely everything.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2010 04:24AM by sushigrl.
I know that sounds a bit crass, but in hindsight, SGI spins everything that way. Absolutely everything.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2010 04:24AM by sushigrl.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
DavidM
()
Date: January 23, 2010 04:55AM
Hi,
To wayfarerfree. I'm sorry for PM'ing you so much, the last few days I've not been working so mind has been in overdrive, I've thought about little else. It was almost midnight the other night before I got something to eat for dinner. I was anxious and overly eager to talk to people and try and find out as much as I could at this time. I will not PM you again.
The person who I said I was shakabuku'ing has been with me for some time over the last couple of days, its not been fun at some points but they have really helped me and helped me talk things through. Their intellect and objective arguments have been a blessing.
Its totally true, I haven't officially 'left'. I've left in my heart and my mind. Basically because I can no longer justify (or more accurately, as I would have in the past, 'make allowances for') or explain the financial secrecy, leadership secrecy, political connections, Ikeda-ism (which in my area can only be found on the interenet), hatred towards Nichiren Shoshu (and all other Buddhists), the 'broken' system of 'leaders', over advertisement, and just plain 'controlling' nature.
After readng the person's post on here last night about the daigohonzon I woudn up investigating that. The person I mentioned was also here with me. I consider that I 'know' (as in have read regardless of what level to which I've understood) the Gosho and the Lotus Sutra. But I couldn't even say if the new SGI gongyo book still had the prayer to the daigohonzon. I guess I had been on autopilot without an ounce of inquiry in my mind when it came to that section. Don't know what that suggests or proves but it was a hell of a slap in the face.
After reading up on various other Nichiren schools of thought I now think the very idea of a 'daigohonzon' (never mind wether its authentic or not or eve if it has 'more power' or not) is a load of crap. I wish I could be more angry about that but as I say its not something I ever worried about, in my 5 yrs in SGI I haven't heard it mentioned once. Except in the SGI prayer book. God, I sound like a freaking idiot. (not sure what the policy on swearing is here btw) This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, I feel like now that my mind is not concerned with automatically defending SGI (as I was chronically guilty of doing in teh past) I am seeing everything with new eyes.
Still on the topic of the gohonzon, I remember getting really pissed off when I saw images of gohonzons on websites and in youtube videos. I can't explain why, obviously I had heard in SGI that the gohonzon should be respected and revered but my emotional response was too strong. Maybe that is evidence of some kind of brainwashing, or maybe manipulation at least. I do still feel a gohonzon should be respected, but now I feel its great that people are hosting high res images on their websites for people to print off for free. The absolute opposite of SGI's attitude. Someone (of one of the other Nichiren sects) as a bunch of videos of various goohonzon's on youtube. One is a sort of animation cartoon one with nam myoho renge kyo down the middle and then little pictures of Shakyamuni, Many Treasure Buddha and Nichiren. I would have been literally enraged about this before but I felt... happy, seeing it, its hard to explain. It just seemed liberated, open, wonderful.
There is a big meeting here on Sunday which I have told a few people I am going to. Feels strange. I guess I'm gonna get a phone call after it. As I said I slipped off the map before for about 8 months without much trouble, but there is one person who will definately call me on this occasion. I guess its hard because I genuinely like this persona and genuinely feel they know alot about buddhism (rather than just SGI or Ikeda). I guess it would be easier if they not such a nice guy. I suppose I can only lay out my reasons for wishing to leave, and see what the say. I imagine they will try and bring me round and defeat my arguments, that wont work... what they will say then I have no idea. Maybe they will get angry, abusive, start saying I'm not buddhist or I'm bringing evil on myself. I don't know. I guess thats what I'm most scared of, what happens in the conversation when there's no ligitimate argument left, either it'll get ugly or they'll hang up. There aren't really any other members I'm close to, and the ones I am a bit close to are not the 'shout in your face and break your spirit' types.
Anyway, I do understand I (somewhat) hijacked this thread and took up alot of people time with my incessent PMs. I am sorry for that, I know now that I have been the lucky one, my problems are trivial compared to what other people must be going through right now. I've found other forums where hopefully I can speak to people about my practice in the future.
I know many of you will not trust me after reading this whirlwind of feeling from the last few days, but I feel as though I was 'waiting' for something to challange me over SGI, I couldn't do it on ym own volition and it took the person I was trying to shakabuku, 'the interent' and my own humility and honesty to let me free my mind.
Not fishing for sympathy but I know I may be seen as a pariah on this forum (for not suffering to a great deal in SGI) and I will also be seen as a pariah in SGI circles. I am very lucky I have my own close friends who are not in SGI.
But I guess I may still be seen as SGI's internet James Bond (or maybe Keyser Soze would be a better analogy) and had only come here to 'infiltrate' this space. Theres no way I can change people's minds on that, and I will not register under a different name or anything like that. If in the future I do feel as though I have something to add then it will be under this name.
To everyone who took the time to speak with me after the arrogant way I introduced myself here I want to say thank you. To everyone who PM'd me with criticism and advice I can't say thank you enough.
This has been an insane few days for me (and its not over) my brain feels like its been through the mill.
I don't know what to say to end this, just, thank you.
To wayfarerfree. I'm sorry for PM'ing you so much, the last few days I've not been working so mind has been in overdrive, I've thought about little else. It was almost midnight the other night before I got something to eat for dinner. I was anxious and overly eager to talk to people and try and find out as much as I could at this time. I will not PM you again.
The person who I said I was shakabuku'ing has been with me for some time over the last couple of days, its not been fun at some points but they have really helped me and helped me talk things through. Their intellect and objective arguments have been a blessing.
Its totally true, I haven't officially 'left'. I've left in my heart and my mind. Basically because I can no longer justify (or more accurately, as I would have in the past, 'make allowances for') or explain the financial secrecy, leadership secrecy, political connections, Ikeda-ism (which in my area can only be found on the interenet), hatred towards Nichiren Shoshu (and all other Buddhists), the 'broken' system of 'leaders', over advertisement, and just plain 'controlling' nature.
After readng the person's post on here last night about the daigohonzon I woudn up investigating that. The person I mentioned was also here with me. I consider that I 'know' (as in have read regardless of what level to which I've understood) the Gosho and the Lotus Sutra. But I couldn't even say if the new SGI gongyo book still had the prayer to the daigohonzon. I guess I had been on autopilot without an ounce of inquiry in my mind when it came to that section. Don't know what that suggests or proves but it was a hell of a slap in the face.
After reading up on various other Nichiren schools of thought I now think the very idea of a 'daigohonzon' (never mind wether its authentic or not or eve if it has 'more power' or not) is a load of crap. I wish I could be more angry about that but as I say its not something I ever worried about, in my 5 yrs in SGI I haven't heard it mentioned once. Except in the SGI prayer book. God, I sound like a freaking idiot. (not sure what the policy on swearing is here btw) This is the kind of thing I'm talking about, I feel like now that my mind is not concerned with automatically defending SGI (as I was chronically guilty of doing in teh past) I am seeing everything with new eyes.
Still on the topic of the gohonzon, I remember getting really pissed off when I saw images of gohonzons on websites and in youtube videos. I can't explain why, obviously I had heard in SGI that the gohonzon should be respected and revered but my emotional response was too strong. Maybe that is evidence of some kind of brainwashing, or maybe manipulation at least. I do still feel a gohonzon should be respected, but now I feel its great that people are hosting high res images on their websites for people to print off for free. The absolute opposite of SGI's attitude. Someone (of one of the other Nichiren sects) as a bunch of videos of various goohonzon's on youtube. One is a sort of animation cartoon one with nam myoho renge kyo down the middle and then little pictures of Shakyamuni, Many Treasure Buddha and Nichiren. I would have been literally enraged about this before but I felt... happy, seeing it, its hard to explain. It just seemed liberated, open, wonderful.
There is a big meeting here on Sunday which I have told a few people I am going to. Feels strange. I guess I'm gonna get a phone call after it. As I said I slipped off the map before for about 8 months without much trouble, but there is one person who will definately call me on this occasion. I guess its hard because I genuinely like this persona and genuinely feel they know alot about buddhism (rather than just SGI or Ikeda). I guess it would be easier if they not such a nice guy. I suppose I can only lay out my reasons for wishing to leave, and see what the say. I imagine they will try and bring me round and defeat my arguments, that wont work... what they will say then I have no idea. Maybe they will get angry, abusive, start saying I'm not buddhist or I'm bringing evil on myself. I don't know. I guess thats what I'm most scared of, what happens in the conversation when there's no ligitimate argument left, either it'll get ugly or they'll hang up. There aren't really any other members I'm close to, and the ones I am a bit close to are not the 'shout in your face and break your spirit' types.
Anyway, I do understand I (somewhat) hijacked this thread and took up alot of people time with my incessent PMs. I am sorry for that, I know now that I have been the lucky one, my problems are trivial compared to what other people must be going through right now. I've found other forums where hopefully I can speak to people about my practice in the future.
I know many of you will not trust me after reading this whirlwind of feeling from the last few days, but I feel as though I was 'waiting' for something to challange me over SGI, I couldn't do it on ym own volition and it took the person I was trying to shakabuku, 'the interent' and my own humility and honesty to let me free my mind.
Not fishing for sympathy but I know I may be seen as a pariah on this forum (for not suffering to a great deal in SGI) and I will also be seen as a pariah in SGI circles. I am very lucky I have my own close friends who are not in SGI.
But I guess I may still be seen as SGI's internet James Bond (or maybe Keyser Soze would be a better analogy) and had only come here to 'infiltrate' this space. Theres no way I can change people's minds on that, and I will not register under a different name or anything like that. If in the future I do feel as though I have something to add then it will be under this name.
To everyone who took the time to speak with me after the arrogant way I introduced myself here I want to say thank you. To everyone who PM'd me with criticism and advice I can't say thank you enough.
This has been an insane few days for me (and its not over) my brain feels like its been through the mill.
I don't know what to say to end this, just, thank you.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
tsukimoto
()
Date: January 23, 2010 05:18AM
Quote
Rothaus
I think one should give DavidM the benfit of the doubt that he got the phrasing wrong the first time around. He sent me private messages too.
For most of us here it took a while to to be able to look behind the scence. Some of the mechanism we were exposed to just became more evident to us after some time had gone buy. In retrospective I used ti defend SGI myself - even though I had doubts.
I agree. When I first began posting on this thread, in July 2008, like David, I thought that SGI's problem was basically just some bad leaders, and that the Japanese headquarters did not really understand how how to propagate Buddhism in the American culture. I was ambivalent about SGI, glad to be free of it sometimes, missing it other times -- and thinking that maybe someday I could go back.
A year and a half of reading other people's experiences with SGI, learning more about SGI's wealth, power and secrecy, finding out how other cults operate, and discovering how much like other cults SGI really is --- all this has convinced me otherwise. The problems of SGI go much deeper than just cultural misunderstandings or a few mean or clueless leaders.
The money, the secrecy, the Komeito party, the pattern of harassing and demonizing anyone who disagrees with SGI, the manipulative rhetoric, the lack of attention to Buddhist principles or serious study, SGI's negative reputation in Japan, the lack of accountability to the members, the constant pressure to recruit and do so much unpaid work for the organization, lack of any real dialogue, members having no grievance procedures and no say in how their organization is run, the contempt shown toward other sects, the overemphasis on Ikeda, the top-down style of decisionmaking, telling members that their lives will go to hell if they leave SGI.....this is a pattern. There are too many red flags. It points to a manipulative organization that cares about its wealth and power, rather than about the teachings of Buddhism or its members.
I was an SGI member much longer than DavidM, and there was so much that I didn't see -- or didn't want to see.
Like Rothaus, I defended SGI, even though I'd go to meetings and feel very uncomfortable.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
sushigrl
()
Date: January 23, 2010 06:40AM
I guess we can understand how DavidM and hopefully others would react to this site having been members before. I always felt something was strange about SGI but just never found a forum for expression like this one. It seems like our experiences are doing some good.
Wayfarer: The over analysis of our circumstances and lives will take some time to dissipate, but don't give up. It's so much better to live without the constant stress of having to show "actual proof" to something or someone.
Nichijew: Hysterical!!!!
Wayfarer: The over analysis of our circumstances and lives will take some time to dissipate, but don't give up. It's so much better to live without the constant stress of having to show "actual proof" to something or someone.
Nichijew: Hysterical!!!!
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