Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
sushigrl
()
Date: January 20, 2010 02:39AM
I also love the info by Ginger Marie that her husband is a district chief but doesn't chant himself. I knew of other leaders who barely chanted and did gongyo, but held important positions. I'm not criticizing her husband, just the emphasis that SoGagI places on activities and donations. Yes they bully the lower people to chant hours and hours, but when you're higher up, what matters is appearance and the fact that you "show up"...and of course donate. Just going to meetings and donating is good enough for the good ol' Gakker leaders.
Also, it's cute how they say if you choose not to chant with other Ikedabots that you will not be part of the lifeblood of the org, the Gaggai body. It's a common tactic used by most major religions I think. Can't show actual poof if ya don't drag yourself to a meetin. It's nice to see that for what it is.
Also, it's cute how they say if you choose not to chant with other Ikedabots that you will not be part of the lifeblood of the org, the Gaggai body. It's a common tactic used by most major religions I think. Can't show actual poof if ya don't drag yourself to a meetin. It's nice to see that for what it is.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
DavidM
()
Date: January 20, 2010 04:57AM
Hello everyone.
I am not sure if this will be allowed to be posted here but I am going to write anyway in case it is permited.
I am an SGI member in SGI UK. I have my doubts about certain aspects of the organisation. By nature I am very critically minded and automatically tend to question authority.
I have been reading this thread for about the last 4 hours and it has made me sick to my stomach and close to tears.
I will make this very brief because I want this post to be here and not be removed by the mods so I must not come accross as being apologetic or sympathetic to the SGI.
I know I have no clout whatsoever but I want to give my deepest heartfelt sympathy to all the previous posters and former SGI members who have had such terrible expereinces in this organisation. I wish I could apologise on behalf of the leaders who have abused you but that is their responsibility, I can only attempt to offer support and advice in any way I can.
The only conclusion I can reach is that there is something very, very wrong with the leadership in SGI USA. I cannot even imagine a leader speaking to me in the way you have all reported. If they ever did I would leave the organisation.
I am not surprised at all that the so called 'leaders' you speak about have such terrible lives. What many people have said about 'leaders' having bad financial, social and family situations is only natural if they have abused you in such a way.
As a buddhist I can only offer one piece of advice. If a leader is pushing you for money, to recruit new members or to do anything that you feel will create more negativity than it will benefit, then refuse. If they are abusive in any way, speak to a higher leader. If they do not listen to you, speak to an even higher leader, until there is no one left. If this still does not resolve the issue, leave the SGI.
Please do not listen to a single word about 'leaving will give you bad karma' or 'bad things will happen'. If you have attempted an open and honest dialogue and the leaders or whoever else is involed have ignored or abused you then you have acted in the spirit of buddhism and they have not. Therefore no harm whatsoever will come to you.
I have been a member of SGI UK for nearly 5 years. In my total experience of SGI UK I have never once been pressured into recruiting new members or making donations.
I have only ever been exposed to SGI UK, and while I have some minor reservations around a small number of issues I have been happy. Reading about SGI USA is deeply troubling and upsetting to me. If this is the true state of the organisation then it will be destroyed from within, and deserves to be. I can only hope these corrupt leaders will be replaced with sincere and understanding leaders in the future, otherwise the SGI will crumble.
I am not sure if this will be allowed to be posted here but I am going to write anyway in case it is permited.
I am an SGI member in SGI UK. I have my doubts about certain aspects of the organisation. By nature I am very critically minded and automatically tend to question authority.
I have been reading this thread for about the last 4 hours and it has made me sick to my stomach and close to tears.
I will make this very brief because I want this post to be here and not be removed by the mods so I must not come accross as being apologetic or sympathetic to the SGI.
I know I have no clout whatsoever but I want to give my deepest heartfelt sympathy to all the previous posters and former SGI members who have had such terrible expereinces in this organisation. I wish I could apologise on behalf of the leaders who have abused you but that is their responsibility, I can only attempt to offer support and advice in any way I can.
The only conclusion I can reach is that there is something very, very wrong with the leadership in SGI USA. I cannot even imagine a leader speaking to me in the way you have all reported. If they ever did I would leave the organisation.
I am not surprised at all that the so called 'leaders' you speak about have such terrible lives. What many people have said about 'leaders' having bad financial, social and family situations is only natural if they have abused you in such a way.
As a buddhist I can only offer one piece of advice. If a leader is pushing you for money, to recruit new members or to do anything that you feel will create more negativity than it will benefit, then refuse. If they are abusive in any way, speak to a higher leader. If they do not listen to you, speak to an even higher leader, until there is no one left. If this still does not resolve the issue, leave the SGI.
Please do not listen to a single word about 'leaving will give you bad karma' or 'bad things will happen'. If you have attempted an open and honest dialogue and the leaders or whoever else is involed have ignored or abused you then you have acted in the spirit of buddhism and they have not. Therefore no harm whatsoever will come to you.
I have been a member of SGI UK for nearly 5 years. In my total experience of SGI UK I have never once been pressured into recruiting new members or making donations.
I have only ever been exposed to SGI UK, and while I have some minor reservations around a small number of issues I have been happy. Reading about SGI USA is deeply troubling and upsetting to me. If this is the true state of the organisation then it will be destroyed from within, and deserves to be. I can only hope these corrupt leaders will be replaced with sincere and understanding leaders in the future, otherwise the SGI will crumble.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: January 20, 2010 05:02AM
DavidM:
Nevertheless SGI is totalitarian organization completely dominated and controlled by one man, Ikeda.
Typically, Buddhist groups don't generate complaints, with the most significant exception of SGI.
Nevertheless SGI is totalitarian organization completely dominated and controlled by one man, Ikeda.
Typically, Buddhist groups don't generate complaints, with the most significant exception of SGI.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
DavidM
()
Date: January 20, 2010 05:19AM
Quote
rrmoderator
DavidM:
Nevertheless SGI is totalitarian organization completely dominated and controlled by one man, Ikeda.
Typically, Buddhist groups don't generate complaints, with the most significant exception of SGI.
I certainly agree that SGI can be seen as controversial in some ways. But I will not argue about the way you see things. Obviously we have different views.
The important thing is for people who have been abused to get on with their lives and become happy. So I will not attempt to 'hijack' this thread. I will continue following it and reading it, and I will probably never post again.
I would just like to say thank you for allowing my post to stand. And to everyone who has had bad experiences I truly hope you will get better soon.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
sushigrl
()
Date: January 20, 2010 05:23AM
Quote
DavidM
Hello everyone.
I know I have no clout whatsoever but I want to give my deepest heartfelt sympathy to all the previous posters and former SGI members who have had such terrible expereinces in this organisation. I wish I could apologise on behalf of the leaders who have abused you but that is their responsibility, I can only attempt to offer support and advice in any way I can.
"As a buddhist I can only offer one piece of advice. If a leader is pushing you for money, to recruit new members or to do anything that you feel will create more negativity than it will benefit, then refuse. If they are abusive in any way, speak to a higher leader. If they do not listen to you, speak to an even higher leader, until there is no one left. If this still does not resolve the issue, leave the SGI.
Please do not listen to a single word about 'leaving will give you bad karma' or 'bad things will happen'. If you have attempted an open and honest dialogue and the leaders or whoever else is involed have ignored or abused you then you have acted in the spirit of buddhism and they have not. Therefore no harm whatsoever will come to you.
I have been a member of SGI UK for nearly 5 years. In my total experience of SGI UK I have never once been pressured into recruiting new members or making donations."
I always had the impression that SGI-UK was more subtle in its promotion of Ikeda and the "practice". But why would you feel it necessary to feel sympathy for the damage done and the wrongs of SGI Japan and USA? I just hope you will give the statements and testimonies some thought other than pity and sympathy. We here have all practiced for a great length of time and are well experienced in the ways of the org. If we felt we could have had a real impact on the policies of this cult, we might have stayed. But that's just it...it's a cult, and true criticism and innovation is impossible. We are looking to clarify and unwind the twisted rope of SGI thought and conditioning. Or maybe that is a demonstration of what SGI has done to your brain...That you feel you must have compassion for those wronged by the org. No, you must exercise true objectivity, step out of the org minded thought for a bit and see if we are or aren't justified.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2010 05:30AM by sushigrl.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
tsukimoto
()
Date: January 20, 2010 05:51AM
Quote
gingermarie
Meanwhile, my husband participates and although he has no personal practice, he is a district leader. (honestly, they will appoint anyone who is willing and breathes) My husband is sincere, and is fulfilling his "obligation" even though he doesn't believe in the MD relationship or chanting for that matter!
To me, this is the problem with SGI in a nutshell. I joined because I wanted to practice and study Buddhism. I left in 2006 because it seemed as if we were doing everything but practice and study Buddhism. And it sounds as if things are only getting worse in that regard. "Mentor/Disciple," U.N. Peace Proposals, Culture Festivals, Rock the Era, reading Ikeda's writings, watching videos of President Ikeda, hating on the temple, pressuring friends, relatives, and even strangers on the street to practice this Buddhism, joining a band and wearing white shorts with sequins, Culture Group, FNCC, guarding a deserted Kaikon, or a plaque in the middle of nowhere.....no. This is not what I joined for.
I knew a lot of SGI leaders who didn't study, and knew very little of Nichiren's Buddhism. (Though I never met one who admitted to not chanting -- they all at least said that they chanted a lot and did gongyo twice a day. Whether they actually did or not, who knows?) SGI requires an enormous amount of "busywork" that has nothing to do with real Buddhism -- and so they need junior leaders to manage the busywork. This means, if you have a pulse and are willing to show up at meetings and do some of this busywork, they'll appoint you as a leader. Expertise in Buddhism is not required -- because that's not really what SGI is really about anyway.
Ikeda may say that members should study -- but do you really think that he means it? If the members and leaders were seriously studying and discussing Buddhism, maybe they would say, "Sorry, we don't have time for shakabuku campaigns and chanting to close the temple down, and Master/Disciple and Rock the Era. We're busy with more important things. And by the way, Nichiren thanked his followers for their donations and told them what he did with their gifts. How come SGI doesn't do anything like that?"
If members seriously studied and practiced, and just said no to anything that isn't about chanting and study -- the whole SGI system would fall apart.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
DavidM
()
Date: January 20, 2010 05:58AM
To Sushigirl.
(I know I said I wouldn't post again but I will reply to any questions directed at myself.)
I am sorry if I came across as demeaning or condescending when I offered my sympathy. I absolutely do not mean for it to come across that way but its the only way I could really express myself.
I don't feel it neccessary to apologise for the wrongs of SGI Japan or SGI USA for any organisational or 'doctrinal' reason. I felt overwhelmed to on a personal level after reading the testimonies people have posted. In the same way I am concerned about anyone being abused in any other situation. I don't feel responsible for the organisation at large, I feel responsible to human beings at large.
From what I have read it sounds as though there is a silent majority/minority (im not sure which) in SGI USA who have seen things change and are unhappy but feel unable to speak out. From my understanding there is only one course of action, follow the actions of Nichiren where Buddhism is being distorted and used to the wrong ends.
I absolutely agree with you, if I had any of those experiences I would have left without question. I do not want to come accross as condescending because I know I cannot understand what it would be like as I have not had such experiences.
I guess I am speaking more towards people who do have faith in Nichiren's teachings (regardless of how long you have been in SGI) and still practice and believe in them even though they disagree with what a 'leader' has said to them or some aspect of the organisation.
In this case there is absolutely nothing a 'leader' or organisation can do to harm you. If you follow Nichiren's teachings then you do not need a gohonzon (regardless of wether it is from SGI, Nichiren Shoshu or anyone else), you do not need to chant with other people and you do not need a 'mentor.' These things may certainly help but they are not essential.
To be brutally honest, it sounds as though some sections of SGI USA have been infected with the same poison (if not worse) as Nichiren Shoshu. As I said in my other post, the only way this can change is through a change from within by members speaking out without fear of persecution. If this is not allowed then the organisation can only do harm to you, in which case I would urge anyone to leave and pursue their own studies (as many people have said they have.)
(I know I said I wouldn't post again but I will reply to any questions directed at myself.)
I am sorry if I came across as demeaning or condescending when I offered my sympathy. I absolutely do not mean for it to come across that way but its the only way I could really express myself.
I don't feel it neccessary to apologise for the wrongs of SGI Japan or SGI USA for any organisational or 'doctrinal' reason. I felt overwhelmed to on a personal level after reading the testimonies people have posted. In the same way I am concerned about anyone being abused in any other situation. I don't feel responsible for the organisation at large, I feel responsible to human beings at large.
From what I have read it sounds as though there is a silent majority/minority (im not sure which) in SGI USA who have seen things change and are unhappy but feel unable to speak out. From my understanding there is only one course of action, follow the actions of Nichiren where Buddhism is being distorted and used to the wrong ends.
I absolutely agree with you, if I had any of those experiences I would have left without question. I do not want to come accross as condescending because I know I cannot understand what it would be like as I have not had such experiences.
I guess I am speaking more towards people who do have faith in Nichiren's teachings (regardless of how long you have been in SGI) and still practice and believe in them even though they disagree with what a 'leader' has said to them or some aspect of the organisation.
In this case there is absolutely nothing a 'leader' or organisation can do to harm you. If you follow Nichiren's teachings then you do not need a gohonzon (regardless of wether it is from SGI, Nichiren Shoshu or anyone else), you do not need to chant with other people and you do not need a 'mentor.' These things may certainly help but they are not essential.
To be brutally honest, it sounds as though some sections of SGI USA have been infected with the same poison (if not worse) as Nichiren Shoshu. As I said in my other post, the only way this can change is through a change from within by members speaking out without fear of persecution. If this is not allowed then the organisation can only do harm to you, in which case I would urge anyone to leave and pursue their own studies (as many people have said they have.)
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
sushigrl
()
Date: January 20, 2010 06:04AM
Quote
tsukimotoQuote
gingermarie
Meanwhile, my husband participates and although he has no personal practice, he is a district leader. (honestly, they will appoint anyone who is willing and breathes) My husband is sincere, and is fulfilling his "obligation" even though he doesn't believe in the MD relationship or chanting for that matter!
To me, this is the problem with SGI in a nutshell. I joined because I wanted to practice and study Buddhism. I left in 2006 because it seemed as if we were doing everything but practice and study Buddhism. And it sounds as if things are only getting worse in that regard. "Mentor/Disciple," U.N. Peace Proposals, Culture Festivals, Rock the Era, reading Ikeda's writings, watching videos of President Ikeda, hating on the temple, pressuring friends, relatives, and even strangers on the street to practice this Buddhism, joining a band and wearing white shorts with sequins, Culture Group, FNCC, guarding a deserted Kaikon, or a plaque in the middle of nowhere.....no. This is not what I joined for.
I knew a lot of SGI leaders who didn't study, and knew very little of Nichiren's Buddhism. (Though I never met one who admitted to not chanting -- they all at least said that they chanted a lot and did gongyo twice a day. Whether they actually did or not, who knows?) SGI requires an enormous amount of "busywork" that has nothing to do with real Buddhism -- and so they need junior leaders to manage the busywork. This means, if you have a pulse and are willing to show up at meetings and do some of this busywork, they'll appoint you as a leader. Expertise in Buddhism is not required -- because that's not really what SGI is really about anyway.
Ikeda may say that members should study -- but do you really think that he means it? If the members and leaders were seriously studying and discussing Buddhism, maybe they would say, "Sorry, we don't have time for shakabuku campaigns and chanting to close the temple down, and Master/Disciple and Rock the Era. We're busy with more important things. And by the way, Nichiren thanked his followers for their donations and told them what he did with their gifts. How come SGI doesn't do anything like that?"
Very well put Tsuki. I'm curious if they don't have Mock the Error in SGI-UK, chanting to shut down Taisekiji or Monster- Dupe relationship meetings. What about Snowka Spirit in Europe? Just curious.
If members seriously studied and practiced, and just said no to anything that isn't about chanting and study -- the whole SGI system would fall apart.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2010 06:07AM by sushigrl.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
Rothaus
()
Date: January 20, 2010 06:49AM
@ DavidM
First of all welcome to this space here DavidM.
I am a resident in Europe and even though the odd experience might be specific to organisational structures in the US the overall SGI-system is the same all over the world. I've started my practise in North America and had experiences in Germany, France, Italy and in the UK. The core of SGI is the same all over. Sure SGI seems to adapt to local issues ... the fondness of UK-members for charity events ... do they still participate in the "Run for life"? (an AIDS awareness event in the UK). The members Germany trying to stay clear of any uniforms and slight attempts to stage mass rallies as this might bring back bad memories in terms of the experiences in Nazi Germany to which most members in Germany react quite (and rightfully) sensitive. And then not to forget the French which are probably the most Japanese like SGI Organisation in Europe.
In the end the lies one is being told about Buddhism – about other Buddhist traditions , the pressure to go along with the party line, the awfully disrespectful manner to treat those who have different views – this in my books includes the way Nichiren Shoshu members were treated and talked about. THIS all is not a way to prepare for PEACE - and peace without religious tolerance is in my books not possible!
Have you ever investigated the fate of the “independent” districts in Scotland – the ones who simply tried to breath life into what was left of the reassessment groups of SGI-UK? If you only practice five years this may have happend before “your time” in SGI. The number of those who were quite full of hope to what might be the outcome of the UK reassement is not small ---- and what happend to that movement? It was squashed.
Just some food for thought and in no means with an offensive agenda. BUT do ask questions and wait for the answers. And I hope if you do get answers that those are answers to you original question.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2010 07:10AM by Rothaus.
First of all welcome to this space here DavidM.
I am a resident in Europe and even though the odd experience might be specific to organisational structures in the US the overall SGI-system is the same all over the world. I've started my practise in North America and had experiences in Germany, France, Italy and in the UK. The core of SGI is the same all over. Sure SGI seems to adapt to local issues ... the fondness of UK-members for charity events ... do they still participate in the "Run for life"? (an AIDS awareness event in the UK). The members Germany trying to stay clear of any uniforms and slight attempts to stage mass rallies as this might bring back bad memories in terms of the experiences in Nazi Germany to which most members in Germany react quite (and rightfully) sensitive. And then not to forget the French which are probably the most Japanese like SGI Organisation in Europe.
In the end the lies one is being told about Buddhism – about other Buddhist traditions , the pressure to go along with the party line, the awfully disrespectful manner to treat those who have different views – this in my books includes the way Nichiren Shoshu members were treated and talked about. THIS all is not a way to prepare for PEACE - and peace without religious tolerance is in my books not possible!
Have you ever investigated the fate of the “independent” districts in Scotland – the ones who simply tried to breath life into what was left of the reassessment groups of SGI-UK? If you only practice five years this may have happend before “your time” in SGI. The number of those who were quite full of hope to what might be the outcome of the UK reassement is not small ---- and what happend to that movement? It was squashed.
Just some food for thought and in no means with an offensive agenda. BUT do ask questions and wait for the answers. And I hope if you do get answers that those are answers to you original question.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2010 07:10AM by Rothaus.
Re: Former SGI members
Posted by:
Rothaus
()
Date: January 20, 2010 07:15AM
Quote
sushigrl
What about Snowka Spirit in Europe? Just curious
The way I look at it wht may be called "Soka Spirit" in the US its the basic party line in Europe - there is simply no need for a seperate movement even though Soka Spirit may be quoted.
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