Hi, neuro - glad you've joined the conversation. I'm always glad to hear from someone who was a long-long-term member and was able to walk away; I was only in for seven years, but have friends who've practiced for 30+ years . . . you give me hope that one day they to may wake up and smell the BS.

One of the things I'm finding helpful is to get back to basics in my own Buddhist practice - all of my experience prior to signing up with sgi was in the realm of Tibetan Buddhism, and I just started re-reading the dalai lama's "Essential Teachings." Interesting stuff, and it's interesting to see how many of the ideas and thoughts expressed were cannibalized and perverted in Senseless' writings. I've come to the conclusion (probably obvious to others, but I can be a slow study at times) that Senseless has written very few of the books attributed to him . . . with so many lackeys to do his bidding, I suspect that they've been ecstatic to do all of that for him and he's just as happy to put his name to their work. I do hold him responsible for that mound of steaming feces that he likes to call his poetry, though.

The science channel (on American tv) had a fascinating program on last night about brainwashing. They began with a field of (I believe) 186 subjects for an experiment on whether someone could be hypnotized to such a level that they would commit murder. Popular wisdom is that no one can be programmed to do something that would violate their personal moral code, and they wanted to explore that theory. Anyway, through a series of tests, they were able to narrow the field to one candidate named Ivan; under hypnotic suggestion, this guy sat in a tub of ice-water for two solid minutes, so deeply under the influence that his heart rate, respiration and all of the other physical indicators didn't budge from where they were prior to the plunge.

A little about Ivan - mid-30's, corrections officer, no criminal record, devoted family member and all-round nice guy.

They told Ivan that he hadn't made the cut and, during the interview, the hypnotist involved came into the room ostensibly to thank him for his cooperation in the experiment. The hypnotist was able to put Ivan under very quickly and without his knowledge, and planted the murder plot in his mind. Ivan was to leave the building - just outside the exit, one of the other producers was to approach him and say a specific phrase. Ivan was then to go over to a motorcycle parked several feet away, pick up a back-pack, and remove a loaded gun from it. He was then supposed to wait for a man who was carrying a briefcase to come out of the building and shoot him in the chest. Ivan was instructed that he would then snap out of his trance and not remember anything about his actions. The "victim" was a stunt-man wearing blood-packs.

Ivan left the building, the producer dropped the magic words, and Ivan unhesitatingly - without appearing to have a second thought - went into the programmed routine. Very Manchurian Candidate. They brought him back into the building and explained what had happened; he was visibly shaken and seemed kind of pissed - he appeared to have no memory whatsoever of what he'd done. The hypnotist put him under again, told him that he would remember what had happened, then brought him back . . . you could see that Ivan was really shaken, despite reassurances that he'd been participating in an experiment and that the victim was a stuntman and was perfectly fine. He only appeared to relax when the stuntman came in and assured him that he was ok.

It was disturbing to see how easily this was done. Sure, they went through nearly 200 people to identify the one person who was suitable for the experiment, but it was only through a series of elimination rounds - during which most of the other candidates were hypnotized and carried out lesser post-hypnotic suggestions without question. It made me think about how many daimoku sessions, gongyos, meetings and krg's that so many of us sat through, and how we entrusted our spiritual well-being to unworthy people who violated our trust.

I'll point out something else from the televised experiment; Ivan wasn't so easy to "put under" the first time, but every time it got easier until, by the time he was programmed to murder, the hypnotist put him under merely by shaking his hand a certain way. Boom! Ivan was out like a light. Think of all the times we sat down in a meeting, started chanting, and made ourselves susceptible to any absurdity we heard and how every time we participated, we made it easier and easier.

It suddenly made Jonestown and Heaven's Gate so much easier to understand.

Guys, could you get us the reference to this program describing how the guy was put in trance induction to do something that violated his own moral standards?

I want to send this reference to someone who studied NLP trance induction for many years (Occasionally contributes to this message board. And he found the entire social scene around NLP to be quite nasty. He incurred a stress disorder.)

T&P, your scrolls are beautiful!!! I'll never understand why there are so many 'taboos' associated with sg - nothing more than superstitious b.s., but it's been my long experience that most folks buy into it without question :-/

and, it's amazing how much the twice-per-day universe-permeating prayers for "protection" never seems to appear when needed most, huh!?! looking back, it's all just part of the sales pitch and numbing mind fuck that epitomizes the sg - check your reason and common sense at the door along with your shoes, and come on in! laaaa la laa laa laaaaa

much easier in the old days to pass the b.s. off as some sort of orally transmitted wisdom. but, with the age of world-wide info at our fingertips, more and more folks can't help but realize that the b.s. is simply bullshit.

meh, great post. and I'm very happy to be part of this conversation.

hardly ever watch tv, but the program sounds fascinating. I'll see if it's available online...

as far as hope for long-time members, you'd be amazed at how many don't buy into the b.s. - don't want to hear anything about the priesthood "issue" (so many believe that soka spirit is nothing more than an arrogant, intolerant hate group), are definitely not on board with the hero worship mentor for life schtick, so many talking about the lack of financial disclosure, etc.

we have a saying in spanish, "la costumbre es mas fuerte que el amor"... habit is stronger than love. pretty much sums it up, at least to me.

wow. thanks, meh, just watched clips from, 'Curiosity, Brainwashed'. fascinating stuff... and a little too close for comfort.

corboy, don't know if this will help, but here's the youtube link I found for the 'murder' segment of the show.

[www.youtube.com]

Here's the link - I'm not sure if it's the whole program, but the science channel does do reruns pretty frequently:

[dsc.discovery.com]

It was eerily close to home; one of the aspects I picked up on was how quickly the hypnotist was able to condition people to drop into a trance state almost instantaneously. I really believe that that's part of the sgi conditioning . . . how many nmrk's does it take to numb a mind and open the door to being battered with propaganda? One of the people involved in running the tv experiment was someone who specializes in false recovered memories - I wish she would've spoken a bit more, because that seems even more closely related to our cult experiences (i.e., being conditioned to believe the untrue).

You didn't happen to practice in the southwest, did you nuevopionero? Just curious.

By the way, corboy, many years ago I worked for an IT company, reporting to the COO. After he was fired for some very skeevy stuff, I had to help pack up his office; I found a document stating that he was a certified hypnotist. Given some of the stuff he was into (he actually went to prison for awhile), it cast an even more sinister shadow on him as far as I was concerned. I'd been hypnotized a few times and it was extra-creepy that he had such a powerful tool in his hands.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2013 02:16AM by meh.

meh, practiced in LA, Atlanta, Miami and the Caribbean. practicing in the South and in the Caribbean is mind-blowing. not a trace of actual Buddhism there in the org (except for the Dominican Republic - sincere and humble members and leaders there, and should be no surprise that they are NOT a part of sgi-usa). for the rest, especially the clusterfuck of an org in PR - many, many, many very ignorant 'leaders', accountable to no one. shallow people leading shallow lives, who absolutely get off on lording it over the members. very sad, and very frightening.

I was just curious - you had mentioned that your stepmother was Japanese and you wrote in Spanish, I had to ask. When I was in Las Cruces and El Paso, Japanese/Hispanic households were not uncommon, at least in the sgi community.

The southwest was very laid-back, with little of the political BS that seems so rampant elsewhere. Far from perfect, but better. Tons of original pioneer ladies.

I got dumped by someone I thought of as one of my best friends after leaving the org - she lived on Culebra for many years. I don't miss her, only the person I thought she was.

interesting take on the Southwest, meh. my stepmom is still in LA (many Japanese pioneer members).

..."I don't miss her, only the person I thought she was." really hit me in the heart. I feel this way about several "good" friends - perhaps that's part of why I went through what I can only describe as mourning after leaving the org.