The trouble with Subud is you can't function as a normal human being. For a start the most important tool we have for charting our course through this life is removed from us. Our brain! People in Subud are actively discouraged from using their OWN discernment and judgment and plain old common sense.One is told constantly to NOT THINK but just receive. Here's an example. I was in year 12 at high school. I had gone back to complete my last year at school for University entrance. I decided to change career paths and added a high level maths to my subject selection. The maths course was way beyond my abilities and I should have taken a lower level or had tutoring.
Anyway I was getting depressed about the whole thing and had had no career counselling support or advice and interest offered by my parents. I was under such stress I was going to throw the whole thing in instead of just dropping the subject mentioned and being realistic about my capabilities.
I asked the helpers to test about it. The helpers consisted of a little old lady who'd been in Subud since the day dot and some other busy young mum. Well , they came back with a positive answer "just keep on with your schooling". End of story. Here we have people with absolutely no expertise in career counselling or any other sort of counselling being given such power and authority over peoples LIVES here to give guidance in making crucial LIFE DECISIONS. So I meekly accepted "GODS ANSWER" and went on getting more and more depressed about it all.
I ended up just chucking in the whole thing at the first opportunity and completely destabilising my life at that point. I went on from there always testing crucial life decisions without using MY BRAINS at all in the process. Its a terrible way to live , let me assure you and leads to all sorts of weird and wonderful PROBLEMS. I'm still coping today with the consequences of those crucial life decisions taken without THOUGHT and still impacting my LIFE today. I'm so glad to have my MIND back and the freedom to use my OWN guidance and perception.

Hi Lincoln,

I live in Ottawa, Canada and am a Subud member in my late 50's who joined about 16 years ago. I am not a cult survivor but I have been troubled about many things in Subud and am becoming increasingly more so.

My issues have not been personal (you can find two articles of mine on Subudvision) but I am very concerned, outraged in fact, where I see testing carried to what turns out to be a disastrous conclusion.

Your story and others like you, needs to be told. Beyond your parent's abdication of responsibility to support your taking a decision, and your own probable depression and anger at living with the consequences, there are systemic issues with the Subud culture.

To be fair, not everyone's experience is like yours, I think your experience is the extreme example. But the way that as a group, as an organization, as a culture, that Subud has no way of admitting mistakes and discourages debate and using the mind, is disfunctional.

I am going to the Subud World Congress in Christchurch and want to lead a workshop on "Why some Subud children call themselves survivors of a cult" Would you be willing to write yup your story, or let me print out some quotes from your postings on this message board? I can assure you this would be very valuable in stimulating debate.

Thanks for considering this.

Quote
Andrew Hall
To be fair, not everyone's experience is like yours, I think your experience is the extreme example. But the way that as a group, as an organization, as a culture, that Subud has no way of admitting mistakes and discourages debate and using the mind, is disfunctional.

I'm not so sure the experience IS an extreme example. My experience has been almost identical. The only two things I ever really wanted to be as a child was a writer or astronomer. Through 'testing' my helpers received that both things were 'bad' for me and that I'd be better off doing other things instead. The other things were constantly changing - my helpers once received I should start a business and when we were testing what the business should be, some of the answers were things like vegan restaurant. How an eighteen year old with no interest or experience in catering should be advised to start up a restaurant is completely beyond me. I went as far as attending Business startup classes and writing a business plan before 'God' changed his mind again and decided it was a terrible idea after all.

The trouble with testing is that you make immediate decisions based on the answers without questioning the validity of those answers. Then once the decision has been made you alone have to live with the consequences - or test further for a way out. For seven years I just kept testing and ended up following a chaotic and spiralling career path which I can guarantee you was not Gods Will but merely a mixture of my own naivety and pride combined with a belief that I could do anything God told me to.

We are told in Subud that desire is a bad thing (nafsu, lower forces). So if you have a desire for something you aren't automatically encouraged to put in the hard work to make it a reality. Instead there is a subtle fear about having a real passion for something, as if indulging it is the road to the Dark Side. So in many cases (okay, by no means all), young people or anyone changing careers end up trying random things instead of becoming an expert at what they are good at. The 'God' who communicates through testing is very fickle and confusing. I actually wrote the transcripts of a testing session I was in once, and to highlight a point (for non-Subud members as well as ex or current members) of how genuinely confusing this can be. This is not an isolated incident and is very indicative of the kinds of careers / future / talent testing that I've been a part of in Subud.

The prerequisite of this is that you TRUST God and BELIEVE that whatever you receive in testing is TRUE. Ex or non members may find that a little hard to swallow, but at some time, we all believed it, as hard as that is to accept now...

Q: What should my attitude be to becoming a writer?
A: Excellent
Q: How is it for me to become a full-time writer?
A: Bad
Q: How is it for me to write fiction?
A: Good
Q: What should my attitude be to making a living as a novelist?
A: Terrible
Q: How is it for me to try to publish my novels?
A: Absolutely dreadful
Q: What should my attitude be to supporting myself financially?
A: Not something you should be thinking about right now
Q: How should I support myself financially?
A: Random peals of laughter
Q: Should I have a day job to support myself whilst I write?
A: No
Q: How am I supposed to pay my bills and rent?
A: Don't worry about it
Q: Should I have any other career as well as writing?
A: Yes
Q: Should I be working in a field related to my degree?
A: Absolutely not (after testing previously how GREAT my degree would be for me)
Q: Should I be looking for a different career right now?
A: No

And so on... You can IMAGINE just how confused I was after this session, and the helpers didn't help one bit. Their 'interpretations' of all the stupid contradictions in their session just confused me even more. Human beings ARE logical and faced with something illogical like testing people STILL try and make logical explanations up to justify it... but those justifications are stupid because testing isn't real. I was absolutely in tears by the end of it, I couldn't make sense of anything. It makes the whole world dark and every choice seemed riddled with unknown dangers. A few days later I tried to test again on what I should 'do next' and I got something completely different - continue studying, which I dutifully did and hated every minute. Unfortunately any personal testing ended up pretty much exactly the same way - ask the same question two different ways and get six different answers. How anyone can live their life by it is beyond me, but for some ridiculous reason I did and it screwed my life up.

As someone who left Subud it's hard to imagine how I could ever have put any faith in that dumbass system of making things up as you go along, but back then I really BELIEVED in it. I hate myself for believing in it so much as I'm stuck with a undergrad and postgrad degree in a subject I have no passion for and I turned down lots of opportunities because 'God' didn't think I'd be any good at them. As another wave of debts from overdrafts and student loans lands on my doorstep I'm even more confused about my future than ever. Employers just don't give jobs to people with no passion for their subject or no extracurricular experience, and I'm in way to much debt to go back and do a degree in the one subject that really did enthuse me.

I can't blame my debts and career problems on Subud, because it was ME who chose to give into delusions and chase dreams and it was ME who decided to give up my real dreams for the sake of something else, something so utterly hideous and ridiculous that any normal person would run a mile from. It was ME who kept going to the helpers. It was ME who ignored my careers advisers if their ideas went against my testing results. I have waves of anger at myself AND Subud. I must have been the stupidest person on earth, but if I had never left Subud I would never have questioned the chaos of it all. I would have just kept going and going until I ended up like almost everyone else I knew in Subud - depressed and unemployable, taking solace in art and crafts before starting a random enterprise with other members because you don't believe in your ability to do anything else at all.

(EDITED for spelling)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2009 02:11AM by Jupiter.

Lincoln,

You really are angry, and I can understand why from your story - how you tried to be faithful to testing and believe in it, and in doing so ended up being saddled with debt, and feeling stuck with something you don't value. No wonder you are angry. You have a right to be.

Not to deny your present feelings, but I wouldn't be too hard on your younger self, who probably wanted to be part of the what seemed to be this exciting Subud movement, that was going to transform the world, where everyone would feel the Inner Vibration and this would guide them to make correct choices. It's an intoxicating idea and very powerful. Don't blame yourself for wanting to be part of it.

I was seduced by it, too. But I came to Subud probably later than you, in 1992, and people had suffered enough disappointments by then. I did do talent testing with helpers, but the way I do testing may be somewhat different from what you are familiar with.

First, I chose who I want to test with. Just because someone is a helper does not mean I will test with them. I usually need to know and feel I can trust someone first. Next, I ask the questions when I am testing, not the helper. The questions I ask are fairly limited - what is my attitude, what could it be, etc.

I do not ask the typical question, Is it correct, etc... because I feel this is too open to interpretation. Finally, if I am satisfied with my receiving, then I do not ask the others what they have received, I am finished. When I do ask what others have received, many times I cannot relate to what some have received, but I don't fret about it, that is not my problem and I do not feel like pursuing it.

With this set of ground rules, I have found testing to be useful in many situations.

However, as you quoted from my earlier post, I do feel that Subud on the organizational level is dysfunctional and this really bugs me.

As for Subud theology, if people want to talk about nafsu, I like to argue that the problem with many Subud people is that their nafsu isn't strong and powerful enough. We need good aggressive nafsu to survive in this world!!!

Thanks for sharing your story, Lincoln. I wish you well.

Andrew

Hi Andrew,
Welcome to the garden maze! There's only way out and thats out of Subud. I'm not angry and I apologize if that comes through in my post. But I am highly critical and discerning of Subuds 'claims' from my experience and recent research on the movement.
Testing and all it entails is just another delusion. It's the equivalent to prayer and seeking Gods will in the Christian tradition only here we are supposed to be asking the 'contact' or the 'latihan force' supposedly 'God' for the answers. So it begins with a false premise ie. that we are asking questions of the one true God.
For an informed biblically literate Christian Gods will for our life is found in His Word, the Bible. In all our decisions we are to be guided by its standards and led by the Holy Spirit which is imparted to us upon true conversion or faith in Christ. As long as we adhere to God and Jesus' teachings we are continuing in the faith.
Bapak teaches falsely that God's word is merely teaching and is empty without the 'life force' of the 'latihan'. The Bible teaches that Gods Word is living and active and sharper than any two -edged sword, dividing even the soul and spirit in its penetrating power and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The Bible also teaches that the Word of God will live and abide forever and in John1:1 and 14 and Revelations 19:13 Jesus himself is called the 'Word of God' and 'The Word become flesh', the living embodiment of Gods Word.
The Bible teaches that if we upon hearing Gods Word mix it with faith, it will come alive to us and will produce LIFE in our being. It also teaches us that the Holy Spirit will illuminate Gods Word to us bringing understanding and wisdom. The Bible says of itself that it is to be spiritually discerned by the indwelling Holy Spirit in the believer and the natural mind ( unbelieving and unrenewed) cannot understand its spiritual implications. To someone who has come to faith in Christ this is perfectly understandable as we realize the main message of the bible is Gods plan of salvation realized in His son Jesus Christ.
Pak Subuh teaches we cannot even come to KNOW God whereas the Bible teaches we CAN and DO when we come to CONVERSION or FAITH in CHRiST. Pak Subuhs teaching are ISLAMIC teachings based on the KORAN and not the Bible.
Bapak is quoted as saying 'testing is necessary for faith in the persons spiritual development in the latihan' ( 'Reporter in Subud' and 'Assignment in Subud' by Varindra Vittachi) He is also quoted from the same book as saying that helpers are to be free from the passions of the nafsu and hopefully they will be, so that the testing will be accurate.
Patent nonsense when one reads the accounts of testing sessions with Bapak. Apparently most people are barely at the material level and some at the vegetable level according to Pak Subuhs 'teachings ' on the 7 different levels. The whole 'levels ' teachings is a load of rubbish and comes from Pak Subuh's involvement with Javanese superstitious animistic mysticism which was his whole life until his world appearance as the so called latest messenger of Gods plan for humanity. Read Prio Hartono's( Pak Subuhs first 'ordained' helper)accounts in 'Inner Wisdom' and 'The Mystical World of Java'. All these are avaliable online for reading at www.subud.net/booksonline.shtml

Open your eyes to all the dribble he TAUGHT despite his constant denials he was TEACHING anything! For more of the same like father like daughter rants look up www.subudvoice.net for more of the same. Here Ibu Rahayu carries on with same nonsense. Any issue will do as the teaching is all the same stuff and doesn't really vary much. Her current leadership rests on the basis of a 'dream' she had( see Wikapedia article on Subud) in which she was instructed to carry on Pak Subuhs leadership of Subud.
This along with Pak Subuhs heretical 'interpretations of bible stories and the work and person of Jesus Christ reveals Pak Subuhs true intentions. And that is to evangelise uninformed biblically illiterate Christians into the Islamic religion.
Upon close examination of his talks one sees this objective clearly coming through. Ever wondered about the reasons for the high conversion Islamic rate among Subud people and the complete lack of Christian presence in it? more later....

Dear Lincoln
I just saw your message now.

I am so surry for your experance in Subud, I wish I could have come here earlier to help you. I have been in Subud since 1972 for good and for bad. I have had a few bad experiances with helper and learned to stand on my own feet. I could have blamed the helper way back and I have for wrong guidence but after all I should have been strong and lissend to myself. I think one have to seperate Subud organisation and the spiritual exercise Latihan. Latihan is you and only you nobody should interfere with that or test anything for you, you should be there and what you resive is whats counts. Unfortunatly there is a lot of testing that should not be done because you and the helper can not recive proparly and or ione should use commone sense, heart and mind. One should follow what you feel is right for you to do and not what you think you have to do or what anybody else say. Hug

Dear Hamidah,
Please leave Subud. It a demonic organisation and does not recognize the truth. .(deleted - by moderator)*.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2018 01:41AM by corboy.

Hi Jupiter , Hows it going? Hope you are doing ok since leaving Subud. Remember (deleted - by moderator)*.

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The purpose of this message board is not to promote a specific religious and/or political viewpoint. Don't use it to preach or proselytize.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2018 01:36AM by corboy.

Dear Andrew, you need to leave Subud. It a demonic organisation that does not teach the truth (deleted - by moderator)*.

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Quote

The purpose of this message board is not to promote a specific religious and/or political viewpoint. Don't use it to preach or proselytize.

Full text of CEI forum rules here.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2018 01:34AM by corboy.