TheyCalledMeJonah wrote:
I was talking to Craig about a band that I was going to start playing with, and he said "Don't tell me you're gonna go out and become a fucking musician. That's not who you are."

So your identity is that you are not a fucking musician? It's obvious from this deep personal ministry that Craig has the gift of discernment. ;)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2021 05:16AM by changedagain.

I was talking to Craig about a band that I was going to start playing with, and he said "Don't tell me you're gonna go out and become a fucking musician. That's not who you are."

possible response:
O.K.--but don't tell me you are a pastor, because that's not who you are.
Deal?

I wake up every day in a reality framed by those decisions made so long ago. The impact on me and my current relationships, my children, and their children carries on. These people sat in a high place and lorded it over us ... with no regard for the impact on out lives. The damage carries on for generations.

I hear you, dbc. Your posts have been invaluable here, helping people in similar situations, so take some comfort in that.

Excerpt from an article in The Atlantic:
WHAT BOBBY MCILVAINE LEFT BEHIND

Grief, conspiracy theories, and one family’s search for meaning in the two decades since 9/11

By Jennifer Senior

"Then, on the morning of September 11, 2001, Bobby headed off to a conference at Windows on the World, a restaurant in a building to which he seldom had reason to go, for a media-relations job at Merrill Lynch he’d had only since July. My brother waited and waited. Bobby never came home. From that point forward, I watched as everyone in the blast radius of this horrible event tried to make sense of it, tried to cope.

Early on, the McIlvaines spoke to a therapist who warned them that each member of their family would grieve differently. Imagine that you’re all at the top of a mountain, she told them, but you all have broken bones, so you can’t help each other. You each have to find your own way down.

It was a helpful metaphor, one that may have saved the McIlvaines’ marriage. But when I mentioned it to Roxane Cohen Silver, a psychology professor at UC Irvine who’s spent a lifetime studying the effects of sudden, traumatic loss, she immediately spotted a problem with it: “That suggests everyone will make it down,” she told me. “Some people never get down the mountain at all.”

This is one of the many things you learn about mourning when examining it at close range: It’s idiosyncratic, anarchic, polychrome. A lot of the theories you read about grief are great, beautiful even, but they have a way of erasing individual experiences. Every mourner has a very different story to tell.

That therapist was certainly right, however, in the most crucial sense: After September 11, those who had been close to Bobby all spun off in very different directions. Helen stifled her grief, avoiding the same supermarket she’d shopped in for years so that no one would ask how she was. Jeff, Bobby’s lone sibling, had to force his way through the perdition of survivor’s guilt. Bob Sr. treated his son’s death as if it were an unsolved murder, a cover-up to be exposed. Something was fishy about 9/11."

changed wrote:
> I hear you, dbc. Your posts have been invaluable
> here, helping people in similar situations, so
> take some comfort in that.

Below is your 'coming in at number 11' comment that stuck with me. ;)

Posted by: dbc
Date: February 23, 2015 09:01AM

It's sad to note that a part of the annual School Of Prophets meeting at Shiloh is the designation of the Top 10 Kingdom Businesses. Based of course on their fiscal and spiritual support of G&M who are so obviously hurting. It must really suck to be giving your life to this ministry and come in at number 11 ...

More on the 'upward flow' (i.e. enrich the leaders):

Posted by: Reepicheep
Date: March 21, 2019 08:15AM

Unfortunately, there were no outside financial checks or balances in TLWF, only the Annual Shepherd's Report. The ASR kept church members busy counting paperclips every year while never having access to important info like Apostolic Fathering Ministries' salaries or APCO travel fund totals and uses. Then there was the Shiloh Amphitheater and Senior Living Facility. Oh, wait, the Senior Living Facility just kind of vanished into thin air with no explanation. But not to worry, they are spending that or other monies to build a Disneyland style cemetery for the people they failed to care for while they were still living.

Posted by: Onion
Date: March 21, 2019 01:39PM

Financial transparency existed far less than I ever realized. And thru these years, children and young adults spent their summers working their asses off, volunteers had to neglect their own needs, their family and their homes to do work including the cleaning of ministries' private residences. Back when I was getting paid the most I ever got was about $900 a month (not even minimum wage) and it was paid as parsonage because the church (TLW) didn't want to pay taxes or social security. That was a long time ago but it would sure be interesting to see the salaries paid thru the years and then compare those sums with "the little people" who received some sort of pay. The credit card records would be very, very interesting.

Posted by: kbyrne
Date: March 21, 2019 02:18PM

My five years in Shiloh, I was paid $80 a month. I was considered "full" time because I worked year round. Those that came in to work during the summer got $40 a month and were considered "part" time even though all of us worked many more hours than 40 hours a week.

The big plus... I didn't file taxes for years because I didn't make enough to file. Also, when I left the walk and went to school, they threw grant money at because I had lived so far below the poverty level. Silver lining. NOT!

Posted by: that little red flag
Date: March 21, 2019 05:09PM

Onion - after helping get TLWF's Accounting Manual out, I somehow got roped into doing the auditing (with another person), each churches' annual financial statements. I can so clearly remember being on a phone call with a husband and wife shepherding team in LA years ago. I saw several examples of expenditure items that didn't seem in line with the church's "mission statement" (I use that term loosely). When I questioned them, they put up a bit of a fight about answering. At some point during the call, one of the local overseers that monitored the annual reporting walked into the office and said that I needed to back off on my questions - i.e., stop asking any, and leave it alone. So much for objective accountability.

Bizarre...but the norm in TLWF:

Posted by: JesusJesusJesus
Date: December 24, 2018 11:43PM

This is kind of scary how long it's getting, and how vital understanding those words are in truly understanding "TLWF Experience." (Now if that's not the world's worst theme park idea, I don't know what is!)

As for the furniture reference - I don't know about the coffee table of Israel, but I do vividly remember the whole fellowship raising funds for some big birthday that G was having. All he wanted was this expensive, ornate coffee table with sea turtle carvings in it. I don't remember the exact amount, but it was in the thousands (if not tens of thousands) of dollars. I scanned the pics of the house G is selling in Hawaii, but I couldn't find it there. I just wanted to see what my offerings had gone to buy. Guess I kinda did with the house itself, though...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2021 09:47PM by changedagain.

I wonder if the lamp of Israel and the coffee table of Israel found a way to coexist in the same home.
Please disregard this post, if you haven't done so already.

from May of 2016:

Posted by: larry bobo
Date: May 27, 2016 12:27AM

Cloudwatcher – I was making light of being referred to as a Nephilim channel if you showed any type of disagreement with the leadership of TLWF. John tossed the word around frequently and I don’t think many stopped to think about what it actually meant. The Nephilim were the offspring of the sons of God who had interbred with the daughters of men – again jokingly, some think they were aliens. My real point is that is that it was an absurd name to label people who didn’t agree with you. We were so star-struck with John, we simply checked out brains at the door and continued to scream “Death to the Nephilim!” who apparently looked mostly like Martha. Many local churches in TLWF have been instructed not to have contact with those who have left – especially those who were involved in any type of leadership. The fact that I disagree with TLWF doctrine (and I would suggest so does Jesus) has no bearing on my love for people in TLWF, and I think that is true for others as well.

On another note, I finally bought “Twisted Scriptures” by Mary Alice Chrnalogar that many have recommended. What a great book for ex-Walkites! As with many books that deal with spiritual abuse, they seem to be custom written for TLWF. One eye-opener is to know that many other groups have done the same thing – TLWF is not as unique as they claim. I think it may be one of the reasons fellowship with other Christians outside the group is discouraged. God forbid that you escape the spider web of deceit.

Along the same line, I saw a great quote on Facebook – “When a toxic person can no longer control you, they will try to control how others see you. The misinformation will feel unfair, but stay above it, trusting that other people will eventually see the truth just like you did.” Many of us have had a few facts about us distorted to paint a picture that is not the truth. I wish I could say it was not deliberate, but the church mouse has attended some elders meetings after I left, and I know that is not the case. Perhaps our greatest influence on TLWF is to just get healthy ourselves – in spite of “God’s judgement” on our lives.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2021 10:06PM by changedagain.