There seems to be a more of a consensus that we are to just to forgive.
based on Jesus crying out to God saying Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.

But might it be more accurate to say that,

Jesus cried out to the Father asking the " Father" to forgive them. He did not Himself openly voice He was or had forgiven them ( He may have forgiven them - but no one knows but Himself and the Father.) Because this was between Him and the Father. Jesus " asked," the.. Father... to forgive these who did not know what they were doing.

Jesus is the mediator, He ever lives to intercede with the Father on our behalf.He is our high priest, the high priest of our confession,
.
But to Jesus disciples' He said, If your brother sins against you, rebuke him. If he returns to you saying, "I repent," forgive him.

Here is another thing I found, that the Lord instructed and gave to brethren.

"If there fore thou art offering thy gift at the altar, and there remember that thy brother has anything against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift." Matthew 5:21

This I believe is where true forgiveness takes place, when something is done that causes brothers to be separated from each other and then they come together to be reconciled.

In the context of what is being said in Matthew 5:21 The one who remembers, that his brother has something against him.That brother goes his way and he goes to his brother and when he and his brother have become reconciled and are at peace with each other, it is then he may return, to the altar and offer his gift to the Lord.

if your brother who you have something against, comes to you looking to be reconciled with you, I believe you are to work at being reconciled with each other until you are at peace with one another.

I don't think it is a one sided matter - From what is written in Matthew 5:21 What God wants for both brethren, is for them to be reconciled and at peace with each other.

Love covers a multitude of sins but it does it does not say it covers all sin, If love covered all sin then there would not be a need for instructions regarding the forgiving of sin.

INVISIBLE


What more egregious ‘sin’ could there be than the crucifixion of GOD’S anointed? If LOVE and FORGIVENESS is unable to cover something beyond that, clarification is definitely in order.

As is found somewhere in the scriptures (not a Bible scholar), LOVING those who LOVE us is no great accomplishment. LOVING those who do NOT LOVE us is where the GOSPEL of LOVE is directed--UNCONDITIONAL and ALL INCLUSIVE.

The FORGIVENESS requested by Jesus on the cross was not fraught with conditions regarding who had or had not reconciled themselves with him, or who had or had not FORGIVEN or LOVED him at all. It was requested for ALL and applicable to ALL.

Splitting hairs is what Deuteronomy, Leviticus and Numbers is all about. The GOSPEL of LOVE is one-size fits all.

pbxguy, by the way, I was not discounting what you said, in fact, what you said very much shines a light on things. You seem to be totally objective in that experience. the point I was making that there seems to have been some power at work in JRS, now, the thing is, people have to decide where that power comes from when the are confronted with supernatural things, that is where discernment of spirits is so critical. You have to consider why the thing happened in the first place, what is the motivation for this display to take place? You said it was of no use really, but it was extraordinary.

KBoy, remember, you wrote this to me:

INVISIBLE:

I regret to inform you that this practice continues. I am aware of an especially grievous situation where the children of close friends have completely ostracized their parents for being removed from leadership and the fellowship. This situation has already included missing college graduations, and potentially could include upcoming nuptials. The damage and heartache will no doubt affect both sides of the equation for many years to come
---------------
KBoy

In what I found, did I misinterpret what Jesus said ?

If you have truly forgiven your brother and if you are covering this sin with love and forgiving those you say are yet turning the hearts of the children away from their parents, why is there not peace today between you and these brethren, who continue to do such things as this?

It is because light and darkness cannot occupy the same place. When we are in the light even as He is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another.

I can do nothing except pray for these my brethren. Because unless they hear and receive the instruction given to brother's and the Holy Spirit convicts them concerning being reconciled and making peace with those who have something against them, they will not come. This does not stop me from loving them.

I think in a recovery situation, it is best to accept the feelings of people in the group, whether they feel forgiveness, or if they have an all out hate and distrust of all things religious, it's a matter of each person facing what is in them, put in there by the destructive force of being under the spell of professional pseudo-Christian religionists with the agenda to psychologically control them for their own personal gain and or self-agrandizement. Living through that sort of thing demands one to take the time to research things out, to get a feel for what actually happened, and after a while, they may decide to forgive, and they may not.

To me, there should be at least just as much demand on the leaders of this bunch of loonies to ask for forgiveness and to make things up, for instance, to provide retirement to the ones they forced out, and to make restoration to the people that were scammed out of their money while the leaders lived like rock stars.

INVISIBLE


I was referencing the statement you made. “Love covers a multitude of sins but it does not say it covers all sin.” My point was that multitude means ‘all’ without exception.

The issue of children being separated from their parents is no different than any other issue you can pull out of the hat with regards to LOVE and FORGIVENESS. One size fits all. Your question of, “why is there not peace today between you and these brethren(?)” is misplaced. I am not personally involved with either side of the equation, only aware of its existence. I view things in the light of ‘temporary insanity’ requiring ‘correction’, not sin that demands punishment. To be at PEACE and to know all things are not ‘right with the world’ are two separate issues.

Jesus was setting the bar for LOVE when he FORGAVE all who were involved in his execution. That had nothing to do with whether or not the execution was going to go forward or whether all of a sudden everyone would ‘come to their senses’ and call the whole thing off. It was applied to the worst-case scenario.

Your reference to ‘instructions regarding FORGIVENESS’ is pointing out that we cannot pretend to come before GOD acting like everything is hunky-dory while there are some issues we have failed to address. The buck always stops with us, regardless of how our brother chooses to respond. This includes ‘owning up’ to any conscious stumbling of another for which we are responsible. Our own contrition may not even be accepted by the other party, but again, that is their responsibility.

FORGIVENESS is foundational for our own PEACE of mind; our brother is responsible for his. Jesus’ extension of FORGIVENESS, as pointed out, was not ‘conditional’ in any way. Simply put, there is no splitting hairs or assigning ‘exclusions’ for specific actions that would supersede the extension of LOVE and FORGIVENESS.

I hope that answers your question.

KBoy,

I misunderstood where you were coming from when you wrote to me saying , "I am aware of an especially grievous situation where the children of ( close friends.) ......

You called them close friends.
In your next communication with me you then wrote to me - "I am not personally involved with either side of the equation, only aware of its existence."

I was addressing something more personal from having to look for answers for a solution having had first hand experience that has lasted for over 20 years. Following a first 20+ years of being directly related and involved in a relationship with the many members of the church.

I think I understand what you are trying to say to me - and that is ( because of what Jesus did in dying on the cross for all, that there is no excuse not to love and forgive your brother. That I agree with.

But taking it a step further - forgiving your brother no matter what he may have done to you and forgiving your brother no matter (in the midst of when he is doing wrong to you) I discovered this is one thing that holds many captive to the idea that they have to subject themselves to abuse or to be collectively subjected to things that are wrong - when it is in their power not to have to remain in subjection to ongoing mistreatment. So at the core of this thinking in light of what Jesus taught, I found that this kind of thinking was in error, about what love is.

But not knowing what Jesus instructed in what I needed to know and understand in some areas, I subjected myself having not really heard or understanding, when I read what Jesus said , that if your brother sins, against you that you are to rebuke him and if he returns to you saying I repent, forgive him - so to the degree that I am aware today , I do not separate what Jesus did in dying on the cross , from what He instructed.

Many yet use what Jesus said, that if someone strikes you on your cheek give him the other cheek. But Jesus did not say to keep giving him your cheeks to strike. But many Christians believe that love requires them to stand in one place and to take a beating for the Lord when that is not what love requires when you are free to walk away.

So the way I relate to this - is that what Jesus did for us, when He went to the cross is - He accomplished for us what was needed for us to overcome the idea that we should subject our self to more than being struck on our right and left cheek by another person. Because He afforded us the choice, by what He did and what He spoke - to stay or to walk away from one another. But at the same time, there is no excuse because of what He did and accomplished for us in dying on a cross, for us to be found practicing such things against one another.

A.D.,

I am not trying to impose my thinking on any one - each of us are sharing our thoughts with one another. And I exist too. And I am not trying to discount any one's hearts or minds in communicating. I think I contribute to the stimulating of thought.

Invisible said:
A.D.,

I am not trying to impose my thinking on any one - each of us are sharing our thoughts with one another. And I exist too. And I am not trying to discount any one's hearts or minds in communicating. I think I contribute to the stimulating of thought.

Yea, I know. I remember a while back when I had the idea to spend a minute or two praying for the Hargraves, that was right before Marilyn died. That didn't go over real well, but it was just something I felt compelled to do.

There is great value to forgiving, once a person reaches that stage that they can forgive, it blesses them, and, forgiving and praying for you enemies does put a lump of hot coal on their heads, according to the bible, and that can be of help to the one that has caused the harm in the first place. I know you arm't imposing your will on anybody. :>)

INVISIBLE


Correct you are in stating that those involved in the parent/child separation are close friends on both sides of the equation, but I am not directly involved in any intervention effort.

Referencing your ‘abuse’ scenarios, these are difficult and complicated issues. We are probably all aware of some such situation(s), and choices, however difficult, have been made by all parties involved. Playing the part of the ‘abuser’ or the ‘abused’ are choices seen as aberrant by any SANE mind, and yet they were made for the ‘value’ seen therein. No one is ever encouraged to suffer needlessly. The choice to stay or go lies with each. These are issues where most will find FORGIVENESS unthinkable in the moment, and may require time and distance in order to be sorted out.

We each walk the path we have chosen (prodigal misadventure), no matter what scenario is unfolding. Our journey is comprised of the ‘lessons of LOVE’ we signed up to learn. We will not be greeted with the WELCOME HOME moment until all our lessons are complete.

I was close to Bob McClane during the couple years prior to his passing. I've mentioned before (I think) find out about his death when it was announced by Gary during a service in the valley. After the announcement Gary proceeded to label Bob a spiritual failure, and then criticized those closest to him for not looking out after his health. The way Gary handled the situation was inappropriate, to say the least. To date, I've had no inclination to forgive Gary for his callous behavior. However, if in a gesture of humility, he admitted that what he did was wrong, or at least ill-advised, I would likely have a forgiving attitude. But when someone shows absolutely no remorse for anything they've said or done, I tend to not worry about being forgiving. I know this approach does not place me on the level of Christ, but I am not the one pretending to be Christ in the flesh.