Off and on thru out some of the posts I have noticed that the idea of forgiveness is spoken of in some of the posts. Spoken of as having an importance - as being one of the answers to one's own well being.

I would like to share some of my thinking about forgiving some one who has severely wronged you - I will use as an example - when the ministry of the church - influences a man's children, ( whether a minor or an adult ) to distance themselves from or not to relate to their own father because their father has chosen not to actively function as a member of the church any longer, and then that father becomes amputated from being a father to his own children because the ministry has led the children to harden their hearts against their father and to disregard their father as having a right, to be a father to his own children. Such a sin is ( unforgivable) until it is acknowledged openly as being ( sin ) among all the people.

I believe I have found in the Scriptures - that Jesus did not instruct His own disciples to just forgive a brother. Jesus said, if you see your brother sinning, you are to rebuke ( correct ) him. if he repents ( if he corrects himself and his way) then you are to forgive him.

Jesus also instructed, If your brother sins against you, rebuke him. If he returns to you saying, "I repent," forgive him.

When your brother sins against, "you," personally. Jesus instructs that if that brother who has sinned against you personally, returns to you personally saying, "I repent," you are to forgive him.

To have a heart that is ready to forgive, is what is the perfect.

But to forgive some one who is doing wrong when they are unwilling to acknowledge the wrong they are doing by ( correcting their own self to do right themselves ) or to forgive some one who unquestionably is wronging you personally, who does not return to you saying to you personally , ( "I repent") - Jesus did not teach His disciples' to unconditionally forgive.

What Jesus actually did in instructing His own disciples' regarding the forgiveness of sin is He gave them the responsibility to either forgive sin or to also retain the sin of those who were unrepentant.

But if you retain sin and do not have a heart that is ready to forgive - that sin may destroy your soul. Before Jesus instructed His disciples' regarding forgiving and retaining the sins of one's brother - He breathed on them and said receive the Holy Spirit.

What TLWF has lacked, is a heart that wants to know the truth so that they can walk in the truth. Instead they have followed the leading of the voice of those they believe are their spiritual leaders. And the leaders have a history of leading the people far away from the heart and mind of God in ( some things ) . For they have not been open to being corrected by any one among them except those who they view as being their spiritual superiors.

The problem they will face is humbling themselves first to the Lord Himself and then humbling themselves as leaders to the people they have miss lead - if they should seek God to know Him and His mind and then come to realize they have done wrong. But if they do not seek Him to know the truth - they will continue on as they are, until over time , they will no longer find themselves to be - a people.

This sin of turning children's hearts ( whether minors or adults) against their own natural father ( simply) because the father has chosen not to allow the ministry to make decisions for that man's life. A father that the ministry wishes to have authority over for the sake of being an authority - over a brother - even if that father attends church as a member, he will be related to as an outsider among his members because of the teaching and thinking held by both the ministry and the members of the church. He is automatically an outsider before he leaves the church. Because he no longer speaks the same language, he no longer shares completely as having the same mind as the majority of that body of believers.

Can a healing come about if the ministry and leadership of the church realizes that they are sinning by turning the children's hearts away from their own parents (father or mother) and they hide the truth ? - by not confessing the truth to the congregation and exposing (sin). Let's say that the ministry now leads the children to relate to their parents now - a parent who is not an active member in the church.

I will tell you that the children will not really be able to really relate to their parents who are not active in the church ( as family) if the ministry does not tell the children the truth and also tell them how they ( the ministry have sinned against their parents and have caused them (the children ) to not relate rightly to their own parents.

But the ministry can not tell the children the truth if they do not know from God the truth. If they do not acknowledge the Word Of God to themselves and humble them selves First to God, to acknowledge God .

The truth is that the ministry has taught the children and their members to disrespect, to dishonor and to disregard their own parents and further to not relate to their own parents and the Commandment of God, IS - TO HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.

And what is even harder for the ministry and leadership is - for them first to confess to all the people that they have taught them to disregard the Commandment of God and then to return to the brothers they have personally sinned against who have told them the truth and to acknowledge to those fathers and mothers they have sinned against, to return to these former members , saying ( " I repent.")

And if they come to the father's and mother's they have personally sinned against and acknowledge their sin in light of God's Commandment with understanding and those father's and mother's do not forgive them, then God Himself will not forgive them when they personally ask God for His forgiveness.

This I think is where God will not forgive us, if we do not forgive those who truly ask our forgiveness.

So my thinking today - about forgiveness, which I wanted to share at this time.

THIS JUST IN ! ! !


A People Rooted and Grounded in Love
November 15, 2015 — by Gary Hargrave

"This fellowship broke into an experience of oneness after John Stevens’ passing."

(As I recall, the fellowship simply broke up.)

"With Marilyn’s passing, we are in such a time now; we open our hearts to receive that which previously was unattainable."

(Perhaps an attempt to head off trouble at the pass . . .)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2015 05:52AM by kBOY.

The wounds inflicted upon families by TLWF leaders go very deep, and I agree with you that the initial responsibility is with the leaders to acknowledge the harm they have done, and repent to those directly impacted by it. I'm certain that there are a lot of people that have been victimized in TLWF, are not ready to forgive, but do maintain an attitude willing to forgive if those responsible decide to become accountable for their actions--as far-fetched as that may seen. I think it is possible to not have a hard/bitter heart, yet at the same time be thoroughly disgusted, appalled/outraged by what certain leaders have gotten away with through the years...basically destroying fundamental, familial bonds...damage which, in many cases, is irreparable.

A line from Marilyn's obit in the Kalona News:
"Many people’s lives were touched by Marilyn’s heart of love and faith displayed over decades of ministerial work."
Possible following line in Wikipedia: But even more suffered, and were systematically tormented, under her harsh reign.

Great to hear from you again, Invisible.

A People Rooted and Grounded in Love
November 15, 2015 — by Gary Hargrave

That's not us. It's never been us. Hell, I've been one of the most intolerant, dictatorial ministries you'll ever come across. So I really don't expect those under my ministry to know anything about love, acceptance or the family spirit...
Hey, who gave me the truth serum? You're in trouble!!

INVISIBLE:

I regret to inform you that this practice continues. I am aware of an especially grievous situation where the children of close friends have completely ostracized their parents for being removed from leadership and the fellowship. This situation has already included missing college graduations, and potentially could include upcoming nuptials. The damage and heartache will no doubt affect both sides of the equation for many years to come.

Well, I hate to make a negative prediction, but just the law of odds, the leadership there is going to ruin the life of the wrong person at some point cause them to snap, and when that does, there the Living Word Fellowship is going to make the news for sure.

I have heard lots of speculation as to why so many cults thrive on the west coast, especially California. I think it has something to do with the mindset of the people there that they don't seem to be so prone to rebel and to actually defend themselves I guess. Such as the gangs taking over whole cites.

I know of cases where preachers have been pulled out from behind their pulpits and bruised up in this neck of the woods. In one major city in the South, a 1 percent MC club was harassing elderly people and the police chief sent out a shoot on sight warrent on anyone wearing the colors. That city was Birmingham Alabama.

I have no idea why some people will just lie down and maybe pout a little when somebody does these things. They keep abusing because they have the permission of the people to keep abusing.

kBOY Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Hargrave:
> "This fellowship broke into an experience of
> oneness after John Stevens’ passing."

An amazing distortion of history, even for him!

KBoy,

I have also heard that this practice continues today where the ministry influences parents or children to cut off their relationship with their parents or their children. . Mainly and simply, because the parents or the children are not given to serve the will of the ministry and to observe the ways established for the people to think and to relate to God and to one another. .

The only thing I can suggest to the parent whose children ( who are adults) to their grown children - who have been influenced to turn their hearts away from their parents, is for the parents to continue relating to their grown children to the degree that those children will allow the parents to relate to them. Go to the graduations , attend their marriage ceremonies , and do not distance your hearts or your selves from your children who have been influenced to disregard you as their parents.

I find that God Himself honors each and every one of us as the parents of our own children by having given the Commandment that all should honor their father and mother.

You are the parents of your children no matter what any man says - because God has made it so.... long before any of us were born.

Such children, do not understand they are being defrauded and robbed of the relationship God ordained and provided for them as a family - robbed and defrauded by man made doctrines and man made religion.

When you are required by those you are relating to as your spiritual leaders and are being required by your leaders to set aside and to nullify God's Commandment, to invalidate God's Word to your self , that is not ( to HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER ) with the idea that this is what you must do in order to honor and serve God - then know that your hearts are or have been led far away from God and that your worship of God is in vain..

In Mark 7, Jesus addressed a similar problem. The ministry of the Scribes and the Pharisees was forbidding a son to do anything for his parents. The ministry had come between the children and their parents. The ministry was governing how a son had to worship and honor God. The ministry was governing as to how God had to be loved, worshipped and faithfully served.

The ministry was not allowing a son to have the relationship he is to have with his parents. A son had to literally disregard his parents, to turn his heart away from his parents so he could fulfill his commitment to God.

Jesus said, to the Scribes and the Pharisee that they had, "nicely," set aside the Commandment of God ( and referenced God's Commandment ( to Honor Your Mother and Father ) in order to keep the traditions that had been handed down to them - regarding how God had to be related to, by those who worshipped God.

Simply put, if you are being required by the ministry to disregard, discount, devaluate,disrespect or to dishonor your parents, in order to show your love for God, in order to worship and to honor God - then know that your heart is being led far away from God and your worship of Him is in vain.

Jesus addressed just one area where the Scribes and the Pharisees were invalidating the Word Of God by setting aside and nullifying the commandment - in how they were requiring the people to worship and give their gifts to God. Jesus closed His message by saying to the Scribes and the Pharisees that they did many such things as that.

So there were many areas being affected in how the people were being required by the ministry - to relate to and to worship God. Which also was directly affecting how the people were being required to relate to one another by the ministry..

That one Scripture that says, That God is seeking those who will worship Him in Spirit and in Truth - brings me a little closer to understanding what is being said in this Scripture in light of what Jesus was addressing in Mark 7:6-13 On the other hand there is the counter part in Scripture, that says, if you diligently seek God, you will find Him.

This is also what I found and what my understanding is - at this time. Which I also wanted to share at this time.

Thank you Changed again,
for your comment on what I wrote. Yes I agree, we can hate the grevious things being done and at the same time have a heart that is ready to forgive.

INVISIBLE:


Sadly, you have on the one hand, the Old Testament commandment to honor one’s parents, along with other commandments to set yourself apart from those for a variety of reasons, which is again repeated in the New Testament, ‘doctrinally’ justifying the behavior. Within such contradictions found throughout Christianity, which doctrine is one to follow?

Couple that with TLW’s ‘pure atmosphere’ emphasis, and the ‘fear factor’ of withdrawal, its not hard to see which direction someone still in the fellowship would take.

Jesus was very explicit regarding the GOSPEL he preached, and it included none of the ‘separating out’ seen within both Judaism or Christianity. It was not a ‘new-and-improved’ version of Judaism, but something completely different from anything else the world had ever heard. It broke down all barriers of division.

His message was simply one of LOVE & INCLUSION: LOVE GOD, LOVE your Brother--end of story. For that, no religion is required.

Invisible. Welcome back. We've missed you. Your posts have reminded us again of probably the most harmful practice the LW does.

I recall being told by LW shepherds that the commandment to "Honor thy father and mother" was supposed to be "spiritual father and mother". Now there's a blantant scripture twist !