Paul--I appreciate your sincerity and willingness to share. But--how could you possibly be in mourning "that we did not break-through to greater restoration??" You speak as if you still believe everything we were told in the 70s, that Stevens actually prophesied actual words of God to us, that we were God's chosen people, the remnant, that we were to bring forth God's kingdom on earth and rule and reign with Christ, defeat Satan, walk with God as Enoch, erect into the kingdom without dying first. Well, preaching something doesn't make it so. Aren't we all done thinking we failed in that regard? We did not fail! We were duped! Of course you did not break through, not because you failed, but because you were lied to. We do not speak God's kingdom into existence, we just live our lives the best we can, and that is not failure. It is just fine. We thought we were more special than any religion that ever existed, and we were not. We were not God's favorites, he never had special plans for us. We did not have a unique "in" with God. The leaders made us believe it was so. They lied to us, and that started with Stevens. There is nothing to break through to. Here we all are 30-odd years later on a website that has boiled our cherished belief system down to one word--cult. An unattractive, humbling word. If we were in a cult, we should absolutely stop believing what the cult leaders taught us, and then there is nothing to mourn, is there?

LAMPSHMAMP:


What are you really saying? (Just kidding.)

There seems to be that annoying adage with regards to trying the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. I think we know how well that works.

Just to tie this theme into my previous post about a former colleague who sampled not one, but four different flavors of Christian movements over four different decades, I will share one more example.

I was invited a couple of years ago to the wedding of the son of a former TLW member who I had known since the 70’s. The son getting married had been raised in the church, but had since left. Instead, both had found their way into the 12 Tribes movement, one which makes TLW look like cult-LITE.

These guys (12 Tribes) can put on an impressive show, with a wedding that takes 8 hours, and includes all members in ‘uniform’, with multiple sessions of singing, dancing, theater enactments, and a very unapologetic in-your-face indoctrination of what they believe, and where failing to believe it will land you. (Fill in the blanks.)

All that said, spending the entire day at their ‘facility/farm’ in out in the boonies gave me a lot of time to talk with the father of the groom. He had put in 25+ years in TLW, and had now signed up for something doubly-extreme. The big surprise came when he informed me that between those two defining epochs was nearly a decade spent high up in the Scientology insanity, to which my jaw figuratively dropped. This guy is such a sweetheart, and seemed so happy in his current state, that I was unable to do no more than smile and respond with a “Wow!”

What seems like someone being stuck in an old day, or old patterns, will manifest in a variety of ways. Some make attempts with similar themes, like the former, where others attempt widely diverse approaches, like the latter. They are the same song with different verses.

I still fellowship with expats who look back kindly at certain periods of TLW history, even though TLW has not been kind to them. We see what we want to see, remember what we want to remember, and that becomes our ‘reality’. Sometimes we have to circle the mountain many times before we realize we’re not really going anywhere.

Yes, kBOY and Lamp,
I think you are both onto something. There is an innate drive to be part of something that fits into our definition of spirituality. Something we hope will transport us out of our daily grind that we believe too ho-hum to be anything truly important. There has to be something greater, something far out of the realm of our understanding, but that tickles our sense of the ethereal so that we can feel as if we've been swept up in a higher purpose. And the beauty of it is that we don't have to do anything except to follow; To place the responsibility for our happiness at the feet of another.
I think that is partly the reason that "Walk" alumni sometimes tend to seek out and become part of neo-cults. We've been ruined for the mainstream, but still have a need for ritual.
Craziest part is the TLW these days is the polar opposite of what they used to be. Aligning with the Catholic church, as they are, would have been considered a great heresy back in the day.
I think that there is simply a hard-wired drive to seek out something greater than ourselves that compels people to continue searching for something new. Eventually, the path probably points inward.

kBOY: Your post on November 08, 2015 10:13PM is fantastic. I pasted the whole post into my list of freedom verses and statements.

[[ whose ‘misdeeds’ were discounted as having no effect on his father/son relationship ]]

Wow. Put that way, ninety-five percent of most preaching is a waste since it normally focuses on the congregant’s/believer’s performance and way of life. The cults and even some main stream churches use the fear factor of eternal punishment, church discipline and shunning to leverage money, obedience, slave labor, arranged marriage, sex and whatever else the top few want.

Wikipedia states that Marcion, a leader in early Christianity, rejected the deity described in the Hebrew Scriptures and in distinction affirmed the Father of Christ as the true God. If Marcion’s view had gained the field, our Bibles wouldn’t have much of an Old Testament included. I can understand this view relative to the fear factor because without an Old Testament, the fear factor has little traction.

The prodigal depiction of deity is a “serious upgrade;” thank you, kBOY. Jesus, in effect, has accomplished what many like Marcion wanted to do. Fear, manipulation, leverage, bullying, force, and violence are unhealthy. I believe much religious mental illness is caused by laboring under a bad/evil/fear mongering image of God.

Whether God exists physically or not, religion remains a hot topic. I want my deity to be tender, loving and all accepting for the sake of my own sanity as well as being able to hold my own in the conversation.

kBOY said, “ A quick inventory of the last few years of messages are so threadbare of any inspiration they have fallen mostly on deaf ears. Same old, same old, reheated and re-served.” I had not listened to a LW message for many years and at the request of a friend, listened to Gary’s message on unity. kBOY’s statements sum it up quite nicely. Not only did it lack any real substance, but TLWF is not doing anything that was being advocated – except in fantasy land – or I mean the “spirit realm”. I could not help thinking, “Maybe God is finally talking to you after all and you should actually try doing what He says.” It was basic stuff that has been taught throughout Christianity for years – not some new cutting edge teaching as suggested. When you get so far off track, any sliver of truth seems like a new breakthrough.

I have come to the same conclusion as LampShmamp regarding John’s unique words in the 70’s – God was not the source. By blending John’s words with Jesus’ teaching, you end up with the deception of wanting to be served instead of serving – just the opposite of what Jesus taught. It should also be noted that when God actually says something, it comes true. That’s one of several criteria to tell if it’s God speaking or not. Another is that God doesn’t contradict Himself. Multiple spouses as the result of multiple affairs is not the path to the kingdom however you twist it to serve your personal agenda. People in the world are offended by that type of behavior and they don't even know God. People in TLWF stick their head in the sand and go with the flow - who cares what God says as long as Marilyn says it's okay. It will be interesting to see how the leadership roles play out in TLWF with a little inheritance money at stake. I hope Hargrave Family Ministries doesn't walk with the "Kingdom".

You should not have to alter the facts to fit the doctrine. I would suggest reading again some of John’s teaching 40 years later without the rose (or drug and alcohol) colored glasses of our hippy days. Looking through the lens of a few decades of hard-knocks wisdom reveals a much different picture than when we were in our 20’s and infatuated with John. We thought (and so did he) that he was larger than death and obviously he was not. “If they carry me out feet first, then this was not a word from God” is something that did come true and should be given more weight when it comes to validating John's prophesies. John's words about the kingdom and what was going to happen in the 70's were so far off that they are now almost comical instead of cutting edge. Getting into small circles and screaming about it some more is not going to change history. It simply was never true in the first place.

Some look at their experience in TLWF and decide there is no God at all. Others look at Jesus’ words and compare them to John’s teaching and conclude they don’t match - that life in TLWF is not a true picture of God. I happen to be of the latter. Taking care of "the least of these" may not get your name in lights as we secretly hoped, but you may just find Him and actually like what you find. As many on this thread can testify to, after you crash and burn, you will at least wish you had been looking, instead of blindly following others over the cliff.

FCSLC:

Ahhhhhh--you got it.

The TRUE message of the GOSPEL of LOVE is the LOVE. It was so revolutionary to a Jewish way of thinking steeped in guilt (Old Testament) that it was barely comprehensible by anyone, including the Twelve. Much of Christianity is warmed-over Judaism, some of what Jesus taught (and things he didn’t teach), and spiced up with a lot of Paul’s ideas. It is not an accurate representation of his teachings. Jesus’ parable of the Prodigal Son did more to explain his ‘theology’ in one simple story than everything else in the Bible. The summation of his GOSPEL is thus: GOD IS LOVE, LOVE your Brother.

The Prodigal Parable can be used as a plumbline to identify everything Jesus was attempting to convey. The quote you referenced, “whose ‘misdeeds’ were discounted as having no effect on his father/son relationship”, was merely an extension of his statement, “this world, not (our) KINGDOM”, meaning GOD had nothing to do with this place nor anything in it--so don’t take it so seriously. Our only obligation here is to LOVE--everything else is window-dressing.

Your reference to Marcion illustrates a significant point, not only doctrinally, but with regards to TLW culture in general. It was widely proclaimed from the pulpit during the JRS ‘daze’ to avoid seminary at all costs, as it would ‘undermine’ our faith. Actually studying early church history and the formation of the Bible was one of the ‘rude awakenings’ I underwent shortly after exiting the fellowship. What I discovered was that what Jesus actually taught was a universe away from Christianity--which is why Christianity has done such a great disservice for 2000+ years, and has its own self to blame for its troubles.

The GOSPEL of LOVE is all about LOVE--period.

P.S. My own personal ‘theology’ which is stated on my contact info/non-business cards which I hand out when appropriate reads:

LOVE EVERYBODY & have fun. (That’s how I roll.)

P.P.S. GOD does EXIST as the LOVE in your own heart. BE IT and SPREAD IT.

I think Stevens would be more than mildly surprised that a Catholic priest was at Marilyn's burial service, sprinkling holy water into her grave. Pretty sure he didn't see that one coming.

PBXGUY:

The final sentence of your last post says it all; ‘Eventually, the path probably points inward.’

The ‘great disservice’ to all who did a stint in TLW was an emphasis that pointed in the opposite direction. As was discussed in earlier threads, the ‘still small voice’ was so discounted, that it basically became obsolete. Relationships that should have mentored the cultivation of ‘hearing’ that voice, instead, established perpetually-dependent ones where that voice was basically discarded.

Everything Jesus attempted to convey to his disciples was in order to enable them as mature sons, not disable them into being perpetual children. He never sought to start a new religion with another hierarchy that lorded it over the people, but intended to LIBERATE them from the one they were presently under. That is why he posed such a threat to the Jewish status-quo.

If we actually take the time to look ‘within’, we will discover LOVE is always there. The issue lies with our decision to either EXTEND or withhold IT. The GOSPEL meets the road in that moment when we decide to either WELCOME HOME our brother, or bar the door to his entry.

TLW fostered exclusion. Jesus taught INCLUSION.

You can google: What John Robert Stevens Believed" and you will be able to navigate to a Living Word website that has many of his teachings linked there, and there is a page on that site with three short messages that can be heard. One is "Continueing in the Apostle's Teachings." Another is "And the Word was God." I think that is the name of them. There is another one, "Some Things About Love."

If you want to see the scripture skillfully, VERY SKILLFULLY twisted, listen to them closely. You will see in "And the Word was God," that John weaves a patter of deceit there, I don't know if it is purposely or what. It is a TOPICAL sermon, not an expository sermon, and topical sermons are just perfect for scripture twisting. In that sermon you will hear JRS show, PROVE that the LIVING WORD, the word that HE speaks, IS the absolute undenyable WORD OF GOD and in essence then IS GOD.

This is exactly where, google THIS: "Living Word | Beliefs of John Robert Stevens"

Go to the top of the page and punch on TEACHINGS. Scroll down and play the messages.

I can't take you right to the spot, but that is the link. You can not cut and paste from their site because of copyrights.

The last several posts are very important, and very well said. KBOY, Larry Bobo, Lamp Schmamp, all of you, very valid points.

I wish that all the Living Word tapes had not been stolen from the Judas in my church that used them to tell everybody that he was John's sidekick and really wrote most of the stuff. That is my guess, anyway, and it is a pretty good guess what he did with it. But anyway, the reason I would like more John tapes is because I would venture a guess that all through his stuff is skillfully woven deception, just perfect for a bunch of immature hippies that thought they knew it all, and were so special that they could understand such a man of God like the establishment could never do.