Morningstar response shows their lack of spiritual maturity. Matt: 5:23 If therefore you are presenting your offering at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering at the altar and go your way FIRST BE RECONCILED TO YOUR BROTHER, THE COME AND PRESENT YOUR OFFERING.[/color:fd8d3b8669]
Morningstar REFUSES to do this with people that left Morningstar, instead they were more of a stumbling block by labeling people as "losers." They would start the name calling all the time, its a common word here in Morningstar to call people who left "losers."

Another sign of lack of spiritual maturity is the letter they sent out, their response toward Tom. It shows Morningstar their importance of "Public Relation". Or PR. Like pharasees in the bible, PR is very important to them. Showing the long wavy robes, when they fast they should have a sad face, these are all Public relation . The outward look is very important than the inward look. I am so glad Jesus address that. He hates it. He called it hypocrites.

Jesus said whatever you sow thats what you will reap. Since Morningstar have backbitten so many people, they are reaping what they have sown. God is just exposing the hypocrisy of Morningstar. The lack of Maturity. Childishness. Their Sadistic spirit, attacking people. Backbiting, self- righteousness. It act more of a cult than a christian church. Jesus said you will know it by its fruits, and there is absolutely no fruits of the Spirit. Kindness, gentleness,Peace etc. Morningstar letter shows it all. There is a form of Godliness but denies the Power.

Paul said, to make PEACE WITH ALL MEN. They had no attempt to do that. In fact, Morningstar have FORBIDDEN people in their church to talk to those who have left. I still have friends in there but I can't contact them. I am hoping all Morningstar churches would read this letter. Its like show them in a mirror what they are really like.

your wonderful neice, just out of college, and her husband to not go through with their commitment to VCM/MSI? They leave for VLI in June.

For your niece,

1) They may have heard of me and know about all that I did in MSI. Show them this post and if they have any questions refer them to me at Bigtommy.com or else to Edward Dalcour at the Department of Christian Defense at christiandefense.org

2) But most likely, if they are so "committed" to VLI they are locked into their mindset and are highly influenced on how to handle objection to MSI. Many times labeling the objectors as luke-warm, compromisers, who fear authority and have "issues" with Lordship. The only thing to do is to lovingly pray for them and pray that God would grant them, a revelation in this matter.

3) You will alienate them if you press too hard, MSI is called "family" and asserts to its members (until you question them), and “we have the same spiritual DNA." Too many times the MSI family takes priority over ones natural family. I lived it! So if you value the relationship, tread easy until they ask for your opinion or ask a lot of question to get them to respond.

God Bless You, Big Tommy

I am sorry to hear that your niece is going to VLI, there is really nothing you can do to convince them. While I was there in MSI california, I noticed that several of my friends who graduated in VLI, just a handful of people who graduated, end up working in the church office with a small wage. Some still depend on their parents and family to support them financially because they could not make it. Some are struggling financially.

I really don't know if there is anybody who graduated in VLI have any successful stories. I am pretty sure VLI people would say there is, but I have not seen one. The ones that say they are successful financially, are actually getting some type of help from their families. Thats what I noticed. AND only like 2-3 people I know that are doing ok, because they get paid really well, being on top of MSI. ( I saw their homes).But I don't think these 3 ever graduated from VLI.

I wish VLI can give one at least one person who are living independently from parents or families. OR not struggling badly financially.
Couple of things you just have to expect, either watch them struggle financially, or help them fiancially once they graduate from VLI.

Some people just had to learn from their mistakes. A lot of us did. You can also sit down and tell them , give it 3- 5 years of their life in VLI and if you are not successful, then bow out.

Because it is just not working out.It is simply not God's will. But, mind you, its going to a big war/battle to get out of VLI. Once you are in, its going to be very hard to get out.
Nobody in the entire history of VLI/MSI southern california have gotten out in good terms. They will put curses on you. Like you are out of God's will, or something bad will happen to you when you get out just to name a few.

In a normal christian church, when somebody says good-bye, because its not working out, they would say, good-bye and be bless. Example the father and the prodigal son and Abraham and Lot. It does not matter if they made bad choices. You just bless them and say good-bye.

I hate to see a young life thrown away, but everybody had to go through a mistake to grow up. ANd I a pretty sure they are determined to go through that. Let them. If they are successful, good for them.

AUthor Margaret Singer. A cult expert. This is just a quote from her, probably its in her book. Cults in our Midst.


They also shelter the cults by trying to discredit the reports of ex-members who try to tell the world what it was like to be in a cult. The apologists disparage these former members, calling them bitter apostates, disgruntled, defectors, disloyal, and turncoats.

David Bromley and Anson Shupe, sociologists. Cult apologists blame the victims and protect the villians. Like the mad kings of old, they shoot the messenger bearing bad news.

One of the most illogical positions taken by the apologists is their claim that only current cult members tell the truth. However, the findings of many researchers, as well as my own numerous interviews with former members, show that cult members are so dependent on the group while they are in it that they dare not tell the truth, dare not complain.


If cults and their sympathizers block publication of scientific studies about their groups the histories of their leaders, and fair comment from scholars, the cults become the arbiters of what the world hears about them. Without a free press, scientific publications, fair comment, and the ability to express opinions, all of us are at the mercy of cult leaders who would determine what we read, what we say, and what we think.


This seems to describe the church I used to go ... HMMMM...

How the United States Marine Corps Differs from Cults
By Margaret Singer, Ph.D.

1.The Marine recruit clearly knows what the organization is that he or she is joining.... There are no secret stages such as people come upon in cults. Cult recruits often attend a cult activity, are lured into "staying for a while," and soon find that they have joined the cult for life, or as one group requires, members sign up for a "billion year contract...."

2.The Marine recruit retains freedom of religion, politics, friends, family association, selection of spouse, and information access to television, radio, reading material, telephone, and mail

3.The Marine serves a term of enlistment and departs freely. The Marine can reenlist if he or she desires but is not forced to remain.

4.Training and education received in the Marines are usable later in life. Cults do not necessarily train a person in anything that has any value in the greater society.

5.In the USMC, public records are kept and are available. Cult records, if they exist, are confidential, hidden from members, and not shared.

6.USMC Inspector General procedures protect each Marine. Nothing protects cult members

7.The USMC is not a sovereign entity above the laws of the land. Cults consider themselves above the law, with their own brand of morality and justice, accountable to no one, not even their members.

8.A military legal system is provided within the USMC; a Marine can also utilize off-base legal and law enforcement agencies and other representatives if needed. In cults, there is only the closed, internal system of justice, and no appeal, no recourse to outside support.

9.In the USMC, suggestions and criticism can be made to leadership and upper echelons through advocated, proper channels. There are no suggestion boxes in cults. The cult is always right, and the members (and outsiders) are always wrong.

10.Marines cannot be used for medical and psychological experiments without their informed consent. Cults essentially perform psychological experiments on their members through implementing thought-reform processes without members' knowledge or consent.

11.Reading, education, and knowledge are encouraged and provided through such agencies as Armed Services Radio and Stars and Stripes, and through books, post libraries, and so on. If cults do any education, it is only in their own teachings. Members come to know less and less about the outside world; contact with or information about life outside the cult is sometimes openly frowned upon, if not forbidden.



This is exactly what I went through when I was in there. These are all the symptoms of a cults. The pastor publicly acknowledge that he wants to run his church like a military. And this is exactly how he runs it. A Cultic military.

Thats why it is so deceptive how it look so perfect on the outside.

After attending for over 12 years a former Maranatha Church that renamed itself after Maranatha disbanned, I recently left in a haze of hurt and disillusionment. I experienced alot of the same abusive issues as many of you who have come out of former Maranatha churches/ ministries. The pastor became increasingly power-hungry and authoritative, repeatedly demanding "covenant" loyalty and both privately and publicly rebuking anyone who had any concerns or questions about him or "his" ministry. He verbally assaulted many of us, both privately and publicly, criticizing us, belittling us, and accusing us of things repeatedly that we never did or that were only sins in his twisted perception.

In addition to the abusive authority issues, it has been concretely proven with corroborating evidence and witnesses (more than the Biblically required 2-3) that he has embezzled more than $30,000 over the last few years. He had almost exclusive use of the church checkbook, with his name as the signer. He also evaded taxes by grossly overstating his parsonage usage. Despite the fact that his embezzlement caused our little church to greatly suffer financially, he placed the blame on the congretation, saying numerous times that we were not "bearing enough responsiblity" and that our lack of giving showed the "condition of our hearts".

He also has been arrested for a DUI. He tested positive for prescription painkillers and as part of his probation was forbidden to have any narcotics. He had become addicted to Vicoden and repeatedly obtained the drugs in violation of his probation by keeping the details of his arrest secretive and lying about his addiction in order to obtain Vicoden from church members who were precribed it for legitimate medical and surgical reasons. When he could not get enough of the ddrugs that way, he got it by having a church member steal a precription pad from her doctor ex-husband, and asked her to write illegal prescriptions to obtain the painkillers. She was arrested and consequently disbarred from her law license, as she was caught at a pharmacy picking up the medicine one of the times she wrote the illegal prescription. He had driven her to the pharmacy, but upon seeing from accross the store the police going up to her, he left the scene and left her to get arrested alone. She, of course, never brought his name into the situation, as she was mind-controlled by him to be protective of him.

It also has come to light that he and this same church member had relations that in his own written words "crossed lines" repeatedly.

Additionally, he and this same church member were prayer partners in an intercessory ministry focused on helping pray for people to come out of satanism. It has now been proven that over a 2-3 year period, the church member fabricated over 50 different personas that she would use to contact the pastor via e-mail. These fake persons would claim to be involved deeply in high-level satanism. The pastor would correspond with each "person", leading them to witness to them and counsel them out of satanism. Of course, all the while, the many "satanists" were reality the church member with whom he was praying. The two of them - the pastor and church member - would spend many hours interceding and praying for each "satanist" until each one, via e-mail correspondence, would relate that they had seen the light and were leaving satanism. This was a horribly deceptive and evil thing this church member did, and numerous ones of us in the church repeatedly went to the pastor to tell him that we suspected that these "satanists" were not real people, but were actually the church member pretending to be the satanists. The pastor would refuse to listen. Instead, he would berate us questioning ones for daring to question his discernment and authority and for accusing the church member of something so evil. Well, in February of this year, it was technologically proven that this church member indeed had fabricated each and every one of the "satanists", creating their respective e-mail addresses and maintaining correspondence with the pastor that would create a self-confirming intercessory ministry between her and the pastor, that their many hours of prayer were effectively getting people saved and out of satanism. Myself and another person from our church proved that the IP's of every e-mail address originated from and traced back to the church member's home or work computers. Her work was alerted to her unethical and illegal usage of computers to help perpetrate the falsified e-mails. The computer tech guy at her work was able to, without her knowledge, get screens shots of her keystrokes, concretely showing her fingers typing the fake e-mails. The pastor refused to believe the evidence. Instead, he maintains that he and the church member have been "set up" to make it appear that she fabricated the e-mails. He is too prideful to admit that he was conned and in turn refused to heed others' counsel, thus making him a part of the hoax by his willful blindness.

Yet in spite of all of this - the abuse of authority, the embezzlement, the immoral relationship, the drug addiction and ensuing illegal obtainment of the drugs, and the participation in a hoaxed prayer ministry - he is still in the pulpit. He was asked to step down, which he refused to do. Some of us have left. Some are refusing to see the truth and are continuing to believe his lies. An "apostle" from an international apostolic ministry, with whom our pastor and church have had relationship with, has stepped in at the request of the pastor and a few people in the church. He has now deemed the situation "taken care of", as the pastor gave a generic statement of apology from the pulpit, apologizing for "those he has hurt". He never specifically publicly addressed any of his sins, and has privately either denied or greatly minimized each of his sins. This statement was made 3 months after those of us who left had already left. We have yet to hear an apology from him. I doubt we ever will.

Thanks to Maranatha and other ministries like it who set up a pyramidic hierarchical system where the pastor is above rebuke and correction, he is still in leadership and still abusing his position and those he is under.

The God of Maranatha and other ministries like it, is not my God. My God is loving, humble, and takes care of His sheep. He is full of integrity and honesty. I am thankful that He opened my eyes and pulled me out of the death-filled situation I was in. I only pray those who are left will allow their eyes to be opened as well. It is a sad, grievous situation.

I'm sorry this is so long.
:(

THE TRUTH ABOUT GREG BALL

This is about Greg Ball, former board member, traveling evangelist, and elder for Maranatha Campus Ministries; board member and pastor for Morning Star International; co-founder and president of Champions for Christ. Maranatha Campus Ministries was repeatedly accused of being a cult. It was difficult to get to the bottom of the problem with Maranatha because cult-like activity occurred behind closed doors and over the phone. This was deliberate. Another reason is that the worst offenders have not repented. And the victims probably never let on about all they knew. So the full story never came out. Of all Maranatha leaders, Greg Ball was the worst of the worst. I have had extensive, upclose dealings with Greg; both in being subjected to and recovering from his oppressive, debilitating tactics. I watched the demons dancing in his eyes. I am one of the few people who knows who the real Greg Ball is, and one of the few people who ever came close to confronting and exposing him. Many times I have become so awed at Greg - how he has perfected these tactics to the point of flawless, how smooth and fast and keen he is, how he is without conscience, how he is completely given over to what he is doing - that I have lost sight of the ugliness of what he is doing, and the severity of the results. He has a public image of being ultra cool, super likable, hyper together, ultra relevant. He was Maranatha’s most respected board member, and one of its most widely traveled and most influential ministers. But his public image and his private life are about as drastically different as they could be. He is one of the most obscene, demon infested people I have ever met. Phoney. Condescending. Patronizing. Jerk. Selfishly ambitious. Hate filled. Cynical. Judgmental. Childish. Unruly. Belligerent. Intimidating. Rabid. Rebellious. Insecure. Aloof. Vicious. Scathing. Hypocritical. Wicked. Depraved. He and several other particularly sick Maranatha elders frequently displayed outright animalistic behavior.This is difficult for many people to believe. He is a dynamic speaker. People ooh and aah over his sermons. Countless athletes have testified that they were radically altered, for the better and without regret, as a result of an encounter with Greg (or his longtime friend, close associate, and equally charismatic evangelist, Rice Broocks, the other co-founder of Champions for Christ). He has been so successful because of his intense efforts to control people and to escape discovery. This is so important. It is why former Maranatha leaders have gotten away with so much for so long, and at such expense to so many other people. It is also why it is so exceptionally difficult for people to recognize, resist, and recover from the effects of dealing with these people, and why it is so exceptionally difficult to successfully challenge them. The Maranatha lingo for this was 'witchcraft'. Funk. Vodoo. The cult watchers call it mind control. But that term is not adequate, since it does not convey the hideousness of its effects. Greg was instrumental in the Austin eldership locking itself into deception, protecting themselves and one another from scrutiny and criticism; granting immunity to themselves and projecting ill will onto others. He went to extraordinary lengths to keep people at bay, accompanied by a highly sophisticated system of explanations, delays, and recriminations. Much attention was given in the pulpit to the issue of people questioning the eldership in any way. With such rhetoric as "outsiders looking in," "spectators rather than participants," "if you think the elders need to know something, God is probably already speaking it to us," "wolves attack the stragglers of the herd," "Absalom spirit," and the favorite, "critical spirit," Greg was sending a not so subtle message. There was always one more level of integrity you had to achieve before you were considered qualified to approach him. There was always one more procedural objection. You always had something to prove. You were always under suspicion. If some one tells him something he doesn’t want to hear, it’s quite a sight to watch him unravel. He flinches his face and darts his eyes. He glares. He turns his head and purses his lips. He crawls out of his skin. He has an outburst. He rants and raves. He snits. He spits venom. He reviles. His wickedness is matched only by his sincerity. He is automatically righteous in his own eyes, not discredited by anything. He does not view his actions as a reflection on himself. Nauseatingly diligent with other people’s need for deliverance, pathetically oblivious to his own. No matter how appalling his own behavior, "really" he’s supposed to reproach you. He causually dismissed concerns about himself, offering the most embarassingly stupid reasons for doing so. Greg was supposed to have gotten delivered from his love of violence left over from his karate days. Either he didn’t get delivered or it made a disturbing comeback. And this explains why he does things with such incredible force and intensity: The Bible stories he told during his sermons were stories of violence, told demonstrably. Of a fat king having a sword plunged through his belly, of Israelites who had deserted to the Philistines ripping their armor off when Jonathan turned the tide. One of the elders went with him to see The Untouchables. When Sean Connery as Elliot Ness said, "I’m sworn to get Al Capone," Greg was about to jump out of his chair. In his sermons, he also quoted from violent movies. Outlaw Jose Wales: "I’ve got lead in my bullets and I’ve got lead in my words." Rambo: "I’m coming after you." Rocky 4: "We’re fighters. There’ll always be some one to fight." At a men’s conference, talking about David’s mighty men, he said, "Men, do you have faces like lions faces." No, but he did. Addressing the church on the subject of dominion, he whopped the pulpit and said, "Men that means to dominate!" Here is a man whose primary ministry consists of telling modern day gladiators that real manhood isn’t demolishing their opponent on the other side of the field, when he himself obviously associates manhood with fierceness and aggressiveness. In addition to the above, Greg’s tactics include, and excuse the lingo: confessing deformities, extracting confessions, having people get on their knees, telling them that they are listening to the devil, talking about them in the pulpit; there’s something wrong with you because you think there’s something wrong with him; compelling sounding arguments, ostensible explanations, textbook answers, and classic comebacks; hypocritical accountability (others have to maintain maximum emotional control, he can let it all hang out, etc); assuring you that once you are delivered, you will realize that he wasn’t doing anything wrong; telling you that you have a root of this and a curse of that. With these and a seemingly endless array of other tactics, Greg can do an enormous amount of harm in a very short time. Harm that one will pay a high price to undo. It is difficult to exaggerate Greg’s condition, and easy to underestimate his behavior. He has engaged in longstanding, deliberate misrepresentation of himself and others. I am talking hard core evil. I am talking about calculated wickedness. He should be viewed and treated as a cultist extrordinare, the ultimate challenge. Such is his intent and ability to deceive and defraud.

THE TRUTH ABOUT BOB WEINER
Part 1

Many horror stories have circulated about Bob Weiner and Maranatha. The many article in the press have mentioned only a few. Probably the press, and perhaps even the cult watchers do not know the full extent of the situation.

-- ___________ goes back to his home state of Massechussettes to direct a new ministry there. He quickly discovers that he did not understand the difficulties of being in the full time ministry, leaves, and takes his old job back. Bob Weiner calls his boss and says that he shouldn't rehire __________ because __________ left the ministry. __________'s boss fires him.

-- __________ protests to Bob that he's a newlywed, and that he's not prepared to start a church. Bob sends him to start a church anyway. It's disasterous. He drops out of the ministry and his wife divorces him. He moves to Dallas. Bob calls a meeting of ministers in Dallas and says, "He caused trouble with us, he might cause trouble here."

-- __________ is sent to start a new ministry and is having a hard time. Bob calls and tells them it's their fault, that they aren't exercising enough faith. Bob talks to __________'s pregnant wife. She almost miscarries on the spot.

-- __________ visits Ben Soto for counseling. Bob Weiner finds out and calls him at Ben's home. After hanging up the phone, he breaks down emotionally. Ben tries to minister to him, but Bob Weiner's "mind control" is having such a debilitating effect that Ben gives up and leaves the room.

After hearing enough of these stories, it becomes obvious that Bob is doing these things regularly, and that the full list of stories is very long.


THE TRUTH ABOUT BOB WEINER
Part 2

If there was ever a lie Bob Weiner told, it was, "I didn't know." He was obssessed with micromanagement. He was on the road and on the phone constantly. He knew the details of everything that happened with every church.

Another reason he cannot say, "I didn't know," is that he was confronted countless times from every direction. Maranatha elders, closes friends, visiting speakers, newspaper reporters, parents, cult watchers. He was told many times that something was wrong. The people confronting him knew there was something wrong, but didn't know what. He knew exactly what was wrong - denied it every time. Worse, he recriminated the people who criticized him. He rebuffed even the people who came to him in the most entreating way.

Everyone who has had a bad experience with Bob Weiner has had to live with the accussation that it was their fault. He was fond of saying, "I hear a critical spirit in what you're saying." He was one of the most critical people around. His second favorite accusation was rebellion. He was one of the most rebellious people around.

Bob's supporters often say that he has a heart for young people. If he had a heart for young people, why did he destroy their lives. If he wants to help them heal, he should admit that he has know the score all along.


THE TRUTH ABOUT BOB WEINER
Part 3

Larry Tomczak stood up at a Maranatha board meeting, looked down at Bob Weiner, and said, "This is the most oppressive, ungodly thing I've ever seen, Bob, when are you going to stop this?...I said this is the most oppressive, ungodly thing I've ever seen, when are you going to stop this?"

Tomczak was one of a handful of Weiner's soul mates who never publically broke with him. If they had, they would have solved the problem overnight.

Winkie Pratney
Larry Tomczak
C.J. Mohaney
Tony Salerno
Loren Cunningham
Mario Murrillo
Ben Soto
Gary North
Dennis Peacocke

A few are into dominion theology, to one extent or another. North and Peacocke are already known for their views. Less known is the fact Pratney, probably Weiner's closest and oldest friend, is referred to on the Post Maranatha website as "the man who gave us Revival, Restoration, and Reformation."

One did break with him, and early on: Clay Mclean.

MARANTHAT'S VALUE SYSTEM

- Ministry: Bob Weiner and Rice Broocks in particular have no use for you unless you have ambitions for the ministry - or can make them look good.

- Anointing: inordinent, lustfilled, craving to experience the anointing.

- Destiny: Doing great things for God, discovering your destiny, making your place in history; as opposed to glorying God, and developing character.

- Dominion Theology: Other ministers have bought into it. Weiner is obsessed with it. Morning Star embraces it, but not as radically as Maranatha.

- The Spectacular: Acheived by big meetings, famous speakers, and fabricated enthusiasm and excitement.

- Fame and Influence: No, they don't want to be famous, they just want to hobknob with the famous. But they do want to be infuencial and insiders.

- God's Mighty Army: Bold faith and a big vision. Marching through the Earth. Setting the captives free. Etc. Words they use to describe themselves: bold, dynamic, radical, on fire, cutting edge, etc.

- The Prophetic: Ties in with other factors.

- "Witchcraft": Anyone who tells them anything they don't want to hear is labeled of the devil; disciples are manipulated and controlled; etc. And the only thing they want to hear is that God is going to do great things in their midst.