Re: Lifewave and Ishvara (John Yarr)
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: February 21, 2017 05:24AM
Ah, here is another forum discussion about John Yarr and Lifewave.
[guruphiliac.lefora.com]
One person describes just how difficult it actually was for someone to speak up
and challenge John Yarr.
So, hello. Going by this person's account, some students were assertive and DID speak up and John Yarr did not learn from this.
So how well would less assertive students have fared, eh?
A small excerpt. If what this person says is true, Lifewave sounds like
an ugly organization. Even if one learned stuff in meditation, no concern
for the welfare of one's fellow students would itself be an injury to one's capacity for compassion and fellowship.
'acorn' a former Lifewave student, posting in July of perhaps 2012 on Guruphiliac forum.
[guruphiliac.lefora.com]
One person describes just how difficult it actually was for someone to speak up
and challenge John Yarr.
So, hello. Going by this person's account, some students were assertive and DID speak up and John Yarr did not learn from this.
So how well would less assertive students have fared, eh?
A small excerpt. If what this person says is true, Lifewave sounds like
an ugly organization. Even if one learned stuff in meditation, no concern
for the welfare of one's fellow students would itself be an injury to one's capacity for compassion and fellowship.
'acorn' a former Lifewave student, posting in July of perhaps 2012 on Guruphiliac forum.
Quote
Most of the women concerned did confront him with the effects of his behaviour at different times. But each woman had basically only her own experience to go by and had to overcome her own loyalties to the organisation and his image as its figurehead in order to challenge him properly. Dissent or even gossip was hotly pursued and individuals would have to choose between leaving the organisation or severe isolation and intimidation if they had any reputation as a troublemaker.
When John Yarr assassinated people's characters who had been involved with him sexually, and told his followers not to believe in gossip or particular people's opinions it was impossible for any single person to gain the trust of anyone else who might have been in the same situation.
When John Yarr continued to promise marriage to his partners even when they were already married (by casting doubts about their husbands health etc) leading each to feel they were special, and given the blind devotion and love on their part, it becomes more understandable how he could have perpetuated his deceptions for as long as he did.
Meanwhile directly or indirectly as a result of his sexual relations, four of his closest teachers who had attained their 'Enlightenment' left the organisation. Three of these left because they knew enough about him to want to dissociate themselves but not enough to tell their friends in the organisation why. Six 'adepts' had nervous breakdowns, some from the stress of teaching, most from the conflict between loving and hating him, between serving a spiritual master and someone who was sexually deviant, and between serving him and serving the initiates. With no way for the truth to come out and no one likely to believe it if it did, given the rigidity of his followers devotion to John Yarr, the only option was to suppress feelings of hurt, guilt, fear and anger.
Loyalty to John Yarr was more important than loyalty to husbands or wives and marriages were thus destroyed by his deception. Given this stress, victims of this conflict would immerse themselves in teaching, meditation or the remains of their private happiness, even sacrificing their health, friends, and future for his sake. Similar traumas affected a number of initiates too to whom he made sexual advances.
Re: Lifewave and Ishvara (John Yarr)
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: February 21, 2017 05:32AM
The 2012 discussion of John Yarr on Guruphiliac continues for four pages.
Page four is interesting, well worth a peek.
[guruphiliac.lefora.com]
Page four is interesting, well worth a peek.
[guruphiliac.lefora.com]
Re: Lifewave and Ishvara (John Yarr)
Posted by:
iamthat
()
Date: February 22, 2017 03:57AM
Hi moderator
I have no interest in blaming or shaming anyone. You persist in labelling the followers of a teacher as victims. I can only speak for myself, but I do not consider myself as a victim. I made choices, and with hindsight some of those choices were not wise. Never mind. At the time I did not know any better. And overall the benefits I gained from my years in Lifewave far outweighed whatever mental and emotional difficulties I went through.
Regarding these mental and emotional difficulties, I simply recognise that I was in a very intense situation which brought all sorts of things within me to the surface. I had to face all my limitations and inner fears and suppressed issues. This was very difficult, but I came out the other end a more balanced and freer person.
As I say, I accept full responsibility for my choices. I do not blame myself, nor do I feel ashamed. It was all just a learning process.
Peace.
I have no interest in blaming or shaming anyone. You persist in labelling the followers of a teacher as victims. I can only speak for myself, but I do not consider myself as a victim. I made choices, and with hindsight some of those choices were not wise. Never mind. At the time I did not know any better. And overall the benefits I gained from my years in Lifewave far outweighed whatever mental and emotional difficulties I went through.
Regarding these mental and emotional difficulties, I simply recognise that I was in a very intense situation which brought all sorts of things within me to the surface. I had to face all my limitations and inner fears and suppressed issues. This was very difficult, but I came out the other end a more balanced and freer person.
As I say, I accept full responsibility for my choices. I do not blame myself, nor do I feel ashamed. It was all just a learning process.
Peace.
Re: Lifewave and Ishvara (John Yarr)
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: February 22, 2017 04:03AM
iamthat:
So you would recommend Lifewave?
Do you think Lifewave is good?
Has anyone been victimized by Lifewave?
So you would recommend Lifewave?
Do you think Lifewave is good?
Has anyone been victimized by Lifewave?
Re: Lifewave and Ishvara (John Yarr)
Posted by:
iamthat
()
Date: February 22, 2017 04:28AM
Regarding the Guruphiliac discussion on Lifewave, Acorn's comments are pretty accurate but they are not the whole story.
Despite all the nonsense we experienced, I have many good memories of my years in Lifewave. It wasn't all bad, and John Yarr was not all bad either. Like all of us, he was a complex personality, and at his best he could be full of kindness and compassion, very solicitous for the well-being of his followers. Unfortunately he also had his own issues and insecurities which manifested in the negative aspects of his teaching and practices.
The reason Lifewave ended was because eventually those closest to him began comparing notes with each other and discovered they were not alone in their experiences and concerns. Together they confronted JY and things began to unravel. Even then, these teachers (or 'adepts') were divided as to how to proceed. Their dilemma was that despite the issues with JY, the meditation itself worked as a means to expanded states of consciousness. Some favoured complete honesty with all the initiates, others wanted to remove JY from an active teaching role while still preserving the organisation and teaching meditation. Gradually over a six month period from late 1986 it all came out and Lifewave was disbanded, leaving everyone free to go their own way and make their own choices. And some chose to remain with JY because they still saw him as the key to spiritual enlightenment.
So out of the ashes of Lifewave rose a new group, which initially at least was less rigid and more open. I don't know how this new group developed over the years, but the few remaining contacts I had informed me that Lifewave Mark II was not without its problems.
A similar process occurred in more recent years with Andrew Cohen, when a group of his senior teachers confronted him about his behaviour and forced him to step down for a year to reflect on himself. This was a few years ago - I don't know how things stand now. Human nature is an interesting thing.
Peace.
Despite all the nonsense we experienced, I have many good memories of my years in Lifewave. It wasn't all bad, and John Yarr was not all bad either. Like all of us, he was a complex personality, and at his best he could be full of kindness and compassion, very solicitous for the well-being of his followers. Unfortunately he also had his own issues and insecurities which manifested in the negative aspects of his teaching and practices.
The reason Lifewave ended was because eventually those closest to him began comparing notes with each other and discovered they were not alone in their experiences and concerns. Together they confronted JY and things began to unravel. Even then, these teachers (or 'adepts') were divided as to how to proceed. Their dilemma was that despite the issues with JY, the meditation itself worked as a means to expanded states of consciousness. Some favoured complete honesty with all the initiates, others wanted to remove JY from an active teaching role while still preserving the organisation and teaching meditation. Gradually over a six month period from late 1986 it all came out and Lifewave was disbanded, leaving everyone free to go their own way and make their own choices. And some chose to remain with JY because they still saw him as the key to spiritual enlightenment.
So out of the ashes of Lifewave rose a new group, which initially at least was less rigid and more open. I don't know how this new group developed over the years, but the few remaining contacts I had informed me that Lifewave Mark II was not without its problems.
A similar process occurred in more recent years with Andrew Cohen, when a group of his senior teachers confronted him about his behaviour and forced him to step down for a year to reflect on himself. This was a few years ago - I don't know how things stand now. Human nature is an interesting thing.
Peace.
Re: Lifewave and Ishvara (John Yarr)
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: February 22, 2017 05:46AM
Seems like such groups lack meaningful accountability, are often inherently problematic and potentially unsafe.
Certainly there are more reasonable alternatives for study, education and meditation that are safer and less risky.
Certainly there are more reasonable alternatives for study, education and meditation that are safer and less risky.
Re: Lifewave and Ishvara (John Yarr)
Posted by:
iamthat
()
Date: February 23, 2017 03:51AM
Would I recommend Lifewave?
The Lifewave I was a member of is no more. I have no idea what it's current form is like. I would certainly recommend the meditation, while also realising that it may not suit everyone. It works for me.
Do I think that Lifewave is good?
I suppose the same answer as above. I gained what I wanted from Lifewave, but I also recognise that many people did not. The manner of teaching could certainly have been improved. Most members had both positive and negative experiences in Lifewave. Many of the negative experiences could easily have been avoided, but that would have required JY to be a different personality. In the end, it was what it was.
Has anyone been victimised by Lifewave?
Some members may feel that they were victimised by it all, but I can only speak for myself in saying that I do not consider myself a victim. Lifewave was a hierarchical structure with JY at the top. The problems experienced by most members did not always come directly from JY. Often they came from those above us in the hierarchy, trying to interpret JY's requirements through the limitations of their own personalities. We could argue that JY was responsible for all these problems either directly or indirectly, but there were many people suddenly thrust into teaching roles who were unsuited to being teachers.
This applies to many groups. For example, with Rajneesh (Osho), many decisions were made by those around Rajneesh such as Ma Anand Sheela which to an outsider seem outrageous. Who is ultimately responsible for such decisions?
I would agree that there are more reasonable alternatives which are safer, but then again, the pressure on us in Lifewave certainly brought stuff to the surface.
Low battery warning - better send this.
Peace.
The Lifewave I was a member of is no more. I have no idea what it's current form is like. I would certainly recommend the meditation, while also realising that it may not suit everyone. It works for me.
Do I think that Lifewave is good?
I suppose the same answer as above. I gained what I wanted from Lifewave, but I also recognise that many people did not. The manner of teaching could certainly have been improved. Most members had both positive and negative experiences in Lifewave. Many of the negative experiences could easily have been avoided, but that would have required JY to be a different personality. In the end, it was what it was.
Has anyone been victimised by Lifewave?
Some members may feel that they were victimised by it all, but I can only speak for myself in saying that I do not consider myself a victim. Lifewave was a hierarchical structure with JY at the top. The problems experienced by most members did not always come directly from JY. Often they came from those above us in the hierarchy, trying to interpret JY's requirements through the limitations of their own personalities. We could argue that JY was responsible for all these problems either directly or indirectly, but there were many people suddenly thrust into teaching roles who were unsuited to being teachers.
This applies to many groups. For example, with Rajneesh (Osho), many decisions were made by those around Rajneesh such as Ma Anand Sheela which to an outsider seem outrageous. Who is ultimately responsible for such decisions?
I would agree that there are more reasonable alternatives which are safer, but then again, the pressure on us in Lifewave certainly brought stuff to the surface.
Low battery warning - better send this.
Peace.
Re: Lifewave and Ishvara (John Yarr)
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: February 23, 2017 05:00AM
It appears from the statements of others on this thread that Lifewave was a deeply troubled group that hurt people.
FYI -- Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh was a horrible person that hurt many people. He tried to blame others for his mistakes, but in the end the US deported him due to criminal activity and no country wanted him because he was a bad man. Finally, his native country India reluctantly let him come back.
The Rajneesh group archive at this database is helpful in understanding what a deeply destructive group this was historically.
See [culteducation.com]
You seem to spin things rather fancifully and apologetically.
FYI -- Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh was a horrible person that hurt many people. He tried to blame others for his mistakes, but in the end the US deported him due to criminal activity and no country wanted him because he was a bad man. Finally, his native country India reluctantly let him come back.
The Rajneesh group archive at this database is helpful in understanding what a deeply destructive group this was historically.
See [culteducation.com]
You seem to spin things rather fancifully and apologetically.
Re: Lifewave and Ishvara (John Yarr)
Posted by:
iamthat
()
Date: February 23, 2017 06:38AM
Hi moderator
You say that I spin things very fancifully and apologetically. It may just be that we think in different ways. Your thinking comes across as very black and white, whereas I see it all as shades of grey.
So I recognise that some people may have left Lifewave feeling deeply hurt, but others were greatly helped by their time in Lifewave, despite the problems of the group. It wasn't all bad.
And I am well aware of the history of Rajneesh, but I would not call him a horrible person, but then I wouldn't call him an enlightened teacher either. As always, some people had horrible experiences as sannyasins while others' lives were greatly enriched.The whole story is rather more complex than simply saying he was a bad man.
Peace
You say that I spin things very fancifully and apologetically. It may just be that we think in different ways. Your thinking comes across as very black and white, whereas I see it all as shades of grey.
So I recognise that some people may have left Lifewave feeling deeply hurt, but others were greatly helped by their time in Lifewave, despite the problems of the group. It wasn't all bad.
And I am well aware of the history of Rajneesh, but I would not call him a horrible person, but then I wouldn't call him an enlightened teacher either. As always, some people had horrible experiences as sannyasins while others' lives were greatly enriched.The whole story is rather more complex than simply saying he was a bad man.
Peace
Re: Lifewave and Ishvara (John Yarr)
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: February 23, 2017 09:56PM
iamthat:
If you can spin Rajneesh you can spin anything and you appear to be an apologist for groups called "cults."
Rajneesh was responsible for the first bio-terrorist attack in American. He was a criminal and was deported from the US due to criminal conspiracy. Read the archived information at the link previously posted on this thread. History is history and facts are facts.
Lifewave leaders apparently hurt many people and left behind victims. You may wish to minimize that, but there it is.
You seem to have come to this message board with an agenda, which is largely as an apologist. Your attempt to somehow spin Osho/Rajneesh in a positive light demonstrates that point.
If you can spin Rajneesh you can spin anything and you appear to be an apologist for groups called "cults."
Rajneesh was responsible for the first bio-terrorist attack in American. He was a criminal and was deported from the US due to criminal conspiracy. Read the archived information at the link previously posted on this thread. History is history and facts are facts.
Lifewave leaders apparently hurt many people and left behind victims. You may wish to minimize that, but there it is.
You seem to have come to this message board with an agenda, which is largely as an apologist. Your attempt to somehow spin Osho/Rajneesh in a positive light demonstrates that point.
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