HELP! Lies and Violence: Is this Landmark?
Posted by:
karmal64
()
Date: February 23, 2003 12:28PM
Greetings:
You said:
<<Getting a life" is big business. Like I said before you can understand how the Nazification of Germany took place dursing the 30's and 40's. Same people, different uniforms.>>
You know, that is more true than I care to think. My social psychology class was one of most fascinating. I think everyone would benefit from such a class. After World War II there was much research into investigating how seemingly normal people can be coerced into doing appalling acts. Ultimately the researchers concluded from their research that apparently anyone can be coerced, manipulated and brain washed to do things that are truly atypical of them under the right conditions.
Very chilling.
You said:
<<Getting a life" is big business. Like I said before you can understand how the Nazification of Germany took place dursing the 30's and 40's. Same people, different uniforms.>>
You know, that is more true than I care to think. My social psychology class was one of most fascinating. I think everyone would benefit from such a class. After World War II there was much research into investigating how seemingly normal people can be coerced into doing appalling acts. Ultimately the researchers concluded from their research that apparently anyone can be coerced, manipulated and brain washed to do things that are truly atypical of them under the right conditions.
Very chilling.
HELP! Lies and Violence: Is this Landmark?
Posted by:
northernlady
()
Date: February 25, 2003 07:28AM
I’ve been lurking around here for a while and have with interest followed the discussions. I live in a home with people who have done a couple of Landmark courses but have clearly stated that I will not participate in anything that have to do with it. My opinion is respected and since my fellow family members don’t attend to any of the courses right now (and might not any more) it is not a bigger problem. They do have contact with other Landmark folks though and every time I get a very bad feeling in my gut. What I am trying to do is to read all I can about Landmark and be prepared if I have to argue in this matter, have a solid ground of information to stand on.
I read in a reply from the moderator that Landmark pays a yearly license fee to Werner Erhard. Where does that information come from and is it verified?
Does anyone know if the course leader gets any kind of provision for how many they are able to recruit to other courses and seminars? That is something I heard from some other LGAT group.
I don’t know if anyone has a response to my questions but since I do believe it is important to act with control towards the Landmark people I give it a shot and ask. Landmark and their supporters are certain about what they do are right and I think it takes a lot to prove them differently. If the argumentation against is just defamation it think we stand pretty lame against the united Landmark family.
Northernlady
I read in a reply from the moderator that Landmark pays a yearly license fee to Werner Erhard. Where does that information come from and is it verified?
Does anyone know if the course leader gets any kind of provision for how many they are able to recruit to other courses and seminars? That is something I heard from some other LGAT group.
I don’t know if anyone has a response to my questions but since I do believe it is important to act with control towards the Landmark people I give it a shot and ask. Landmark and their supporters are certain about what they do are right and I think it takes a lot to prove them differently. If the argumentation against is just defamation it think we stand pretty lame against the united Landmark family.
Northernlady
HELP! Lies and Violence: Is this Landmark?
Posted by:
karmal64
()
Date: February 25, 2003 09:14AM
For those who want to convince a friend or loved one NOT to do Landmark, Lifespring or similar large group awarness training or have worries and wish to see what the scientific community thinks of Landmark and other large group awareness trainings see:
[www.culteducation.com]
[skepdic.com]
For those who want to read the BEST exposes on such groups read "Outrageous Betrayal," and the 1995 edition of "Cults in Our Midst," by Dr. Margaret Singer, Ph.D--the best cult research in the country.
Here's the excerpt from Dr. Singer's book about Landmark and similar that Landmark suppressed because they are not into free speech and use lawsuits to intimidate and silence those whose ideas they are intolerant of:
[www.culteducation.com]
[www.culteducation.com]
[skepdic.com]
For those who want to read the BEST exposes on such groups read "Outrageous Betrayal," and the 1995 edition of "Cults in Our Midst," by Dr. Margaret Singer, Ph.D--the best cult research in the country.
Here's the excerpt from Dr. Singer's book about Landmark and similar that Landmark suppressed because they are not into free speech and use lawsuits to intimidate and silence those whose ideas they are intolerant of:
[www.culteducation.com]
HELP! Lies and Violence: Is this Landmark?
Posted by:
karmal64
()
Date: February 25, 2003 09:33AM
Here'a another good LGAT scientific and misc. link:
[www.csj.org]
Here's just an all-time favorite LGAT link to help you to know what to expect before, during and after the forums:
[www.100megsfree4.com]
[www.csj.org]
Here's just an all-time favorite LGAT link to help you to know what to expect before, during and after the forums:
[www.100megsfree4.com]
HELP! Lies and Violence: Is this Landmark?
Posted by:
righttofight
()
Date: February 25, 2003 10:29AM
Hi,
I read your account about members in your household.
I have to tell you after losing a girlfriend to this and doing a lot of research and counseling.
You cannot win an argument with these people.
You will immediately differentiate yourself and shut them down.
No amount of rationale will win. Basically. It's an emotional battlefield. If there are people they believe care and they cannot hurt over above their "cult" - they will listen if you use intervention with a therapist.
I got a partial win when I connected to her family about this. They are upset. She was trying to keep a lot of the information hidden. Her rundown appearance. The cult owed her money. She was ignoring the kids. The family was her curb. Unfortunately, the cult worked on her about me and desensitized her to my emotions. It's been rough.
People who have been through this are really mind controlled. They have been trained to ignore feelings or turn off criticism.
Time will work for you. Patience. Love and support no matter what. That is very very hard when your girlfriend is constantly picking fights with you.
Do not be a door mat though. Do not pretend it is not a cult. Respectfully disagree.
Documentation abounds on these companies. Check the books suggested and this WEB site.
People who are subjected to this training truly believe they are getting their life back and anyone who objects are losers or trying to stop them.
It's a hard road to walk down with someone you care about in these trainings.
You always risk being ostracized.
Good luck
I read your account about members in your household.
I have to tell you after losing a girlfriend to this and doing a lot of research and counseling.
You cannot win an argument with these people.
You will immediately differentiate yourself and shut them down.
No amount of rationale will win. Basically. It's an emotional battlefield. If there are people they believe care and they cannot hurt over above their "cult" - they will listen if you use intervention with a therapist.
I got a partial win when I connected to her family about this. They are upset. She was trying to keep a lot of the information hidden. Her rundown appearance. The cult owed her money. She was ignoring the kids. The family was her curb. Unfortunately, the cult worked on her about me and desensitized her to my emotions. It's been rough.
People who have been through this are really mind controlled. They have been trained to ignore feelings or turn off criticism.
Time will work for you. Patience. Love and support no matter what. That is very very hard when your girlfriend is constantly picking fights with you.
Do not be a door mat though. Do not pretend it is not a cult. Respectfully disagree.
Documentation abounds on these companies. Check the books suggested and this WEB site.
People who are subjected to this training truly believe they are getting their life back and anyone who objects are losers or trying to stop them.
It's a hard road to walk down with someone you care about in these trainings.
You always risk being ostracized.
Good luck
HELP! Lies and Violence: Is this Landmark?
Posted by:
karmal64
()
Date: February 25, 2003 01:00PM
Generally acknowledged to be a spinoff of Landmark, If you look up Lifespring at culteducation.com among other things, you'll find the following about them:
Founded In 1973 by John Hanley, Lifespring claims to have trained more than 400,000 people through its ten centers across the country. Like many "personal growth" groups, it counts on the fact that most people are impatient to learn about themselves and will do almost anything to speed up the process of self-discovery, including spending a lot of money for "secret" strategies. "Cults like Lifespring are like a psychological prison: What they do is narrow your world," says Marcia Rudin, director of the International Cult Education Program, "You leave friends and destroy relationships for a false high."
There have been at least 30 lawsuits against Lifespring, alleging everything from emotional damage to death. According to Gerald F. Ragland Jr., an attorney In Alexandria, Virginia, in 1984 a Philadelphia jury awarded [money]...to a client of his whom was hospitalized with mental problems after her Lifespring training. In 1992 a jury in Washington, D.C., awarded $300,000 to a young lawyer who was hospitalized for a mental breakdown five days after training. Yet according to Pittsburgh lawyer Peter N. Georgiades, its more common for cases against Lifespring to be settled out of court In 1982 the family of a man who leaped from a four-story holding following a five-day Lifespring training session settled out of court for an undisclosed sum. And In 1993 Georgiades won a ...settlement for a Lifespring trainee who was institutionalized for two years following Leadership training.
Founded In 1973 by John Hanley, Lifespring claims to have trained more than 400,000 people through its ten centers across the country. Like many "personal growth" groups, it counts on the fact that most people are impatient to learn about themselves and will do almost anything to speed up the process of self-discovery, including spending a lot of money for "secret" strategies. "Cults like Lifespring are like a psychological prison: What they do is narrow your world," says Marcia Rudin, director of the International Cult Education Program, "You leave friends and destroy relationships for a false high."
There have been at least 30 lawsuits against Lifespring, alleging everything from emotional damage to death. According to Gerald F. Ragland Jr., an attorney In Alexandria, Virginia, in 1984 a Philadelphia jury awarded [money]...to a client of his whom was hospitalized with mental problems after her Lifespring training. In 1992 a jury in Washington, D.C., awarded $300,000 to a young lawyer who was hospitalized for a mental breakdown five days after training. Yet according to Pittsburgh lawyer Peter N. Georgiades, its more common for cases against Lifespring to be settled out of court In 1982 the family of a man who leaped from a four-story holding following a five-day Lifespring training session settled out of court for an undisclosed sum. And In 1993 Georgiades won a ...settlement for a Lifespring trainee who was institutionalized for two years following Leadership training.
HELP! Lies and Violence: Is this Landmark?
Posted by:
Right2Refuse
()
Date: March 14, 2003 06:04AM
Is the phrase "getting a life" used by Landmark? My violent sister in law - who has been involved with Landmark - has used this phrase a lot. On one occasion, the way she said it suggested that the "life" she intended "getting" was unlikely to have much to do with her husband and kids. She has since separated from her husband.
Right2Refuse
:confused:
Right2Refuse
:confused:
HELP! Lies and Violence: Is this Landmark?
Posted by:
patrick-darcy
()
Date: March 15, 2003 08:37AM
Quote
sian
There has been a scientific study underataken by the Talent Organisation (put a search engine on it to get the webb address. )What is wrong with a company making money?.... Is not the entire western world built upon such a basic way of operating. I am not interseted in the fact that the founder has got rich off it. Bill Gates and Richard Branson have got rich off me buying software and cd's but those things have brought me great pleasure and came at quite a low price. The forum works out at about £4.60 per hour....about per hour I think. My driving lessons cost me $ 30 an hour, Italien lessons an hour. Everything costs. Plenty make money out of providing services/products. Why should that be so sinister? Quite a low price for having the tools to create a life that I love living. As for recommendations....apparently the Koran is an amazing book, my Muslim friends recommend I read it...maybe I will one day but I cannot recommend it to you as I have not as this point in my life had any direct experience of it. So I shall remain silent until I am equipped with the authority of experience. The Forum I have experienced and I recommend it to anyone, although you must decide for yourself and not do it under duress. Look at what this site has to say and at their site "Lanmark education.com" and decide for yourself. Reviews and complaints are utterly subjective....as is mine here....so dare to look for yourself. There is something of real enduring value available in my opinion iout of participating in the Forum.It was the cheapest educational experience I have ever come across-the possibility of 3 days + £275 = having a life you love. You do the maths - what have you got to lose?
well for one thing your independent,
in effect your mind. your mind is or
at least should be more vaulable to u
than the feel good that get from landmark.
actully if u factor in the 20 mini forums
that go along with the landmark forum,
these are the 4 or 5 hour events u attend
for free, then the cost per hour of landmark
is significantly reduced.
its not the price u pay, its the price u pay.
get it
HELP! Lies and Violence: Is this Landmark?
Posted by:
karmal64
()
Date: March 15, 2003 11:15AM
Hi, Right2refuse,
I meant to respond only to you, but this forum seems to have rather primitive responding capabilities or I just don't get it yet.
<<Is the phrase "getting a life" used by Landmark? My violent sister in law - who has been involved with Landmark - has used this phrase a lot. On one occasion, the way she said it suggested that the "life" she intended "getting" was unlikely to have much to do with her husband and kids. She has since separated from her husband.>>
I really don't know. It's certainly yet again another example of a useless psychobabble that certainly sounds good and people would perhaps even wish to get one; but naturally nobody tells them exactly how to do so. Instead they get the one-size-fits-all panacea--the forum.
I was surprised that our local KARE 11 news sent a hidden camera into a Lifespring forum a while back. It's mentioned at the culteducation.com site.
Just FYI: Re. the "Talent..." study mentioned by another. Unless a study is published in a respected and refereed scientific journal the value of the study is dubious. If it was simply a correlational study or a nominal data survey then it's little more than a conversation starter or a new bit on the 6 'clock news. If someone wants to look for any reputable studies that might actually exist I'd ask your local library info. expert to look for such studies but with the two criteria above at something like infotrac web; otherwise the studies elsewhere are about as scientifically rigorous as an editorial in sports illustrated or cosmopolitan.
OK, I'm through with this thread. I cannot think of nor do I wish to add anything else.
K.
I meant to respond only to you, but this forum seems to have rather primitive responding capabilities or I just don't get it yet.
<<Is the phrase "getting a life" used by Landmark? My violent sister in law - who has been involved with Landmark - has used this phrase a lot. On one occasion, the way she said it suggested that the "life" she intended "getting" was unlikely to have much to do with her husband and kids. She has since separated from her husband.>>
I really don't know. It's certainly yet again another example of a useless psychobabble that certainly sounds good and people would perhaps even wish to get one; but naturally nobody tells them exactly how to do so. Instead they get the one-size-fits-all panacea--the forum.
I was surprised that our local KARE 11 news sent a hidden camera into a Lifespring forum a while back. It's mentioned at the culteducation.com site.
Just FYI: Re. the "Talent..." study mentioned by another. Unless a study is published in a respected and refereed scientific journal the value of the study is dubious. If it was simply a correlational study or a nominal data survey then it's little more than a conversation starter or a new bit on the 6 'clock news. If someone wants to look for any reputable studies that might actually exist I'd ask your local library info. expert to look for such studies but with the two criteria above at something like infotrac web; otherwise the studies elsewhere are about as scientifically rigorous as an editorial in sports illustrated or cosmopolitan.
OK, I'm through with this thread. I cannot think of nor do I wish to add anything else.
K.
HELP! Lies and Violence: Is this Landmark?
Posted by:
Guy
()
Date: February 04, 2004 08:34AM
Useful thread here for seeing Landmark apologist threads and style of writing.
Sian is an excellent example.
Sian is an excellent example.
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