to those who have had positive landmark experiences
Posted by:
magpie
()
Date: September 23, 2010 12:30AM
Have any one of you ever considered that the positivity you feel is because of the mind manipulation?
What do we learn in the forum? To keep your word (something my parents taught me), have integrity (something I learned all on my own), create a possibility to achieve something (aka a plan), do not blame others or your past for present failures (duh wow I know many do this but it is easy to figure out that you achieve nothing with this way of thinking)..... All of these little life lessons are easily achieved without any mind manipulation, the mind manipulation is what has you leave the forum exhalted, high on life etc.... Without the mind manipulation you come to these findings without any big hoopla.....
What else do we learn in the forum, your reactions to others and what they have done to you creates a barrier, you are supposed to take responsibility for feeling like a violated victim when you were indeed a violated victim.... This I do not agree with, I do agree with finding a way to deal with it and moving on and to not hold on to it forever, but to say a person is responsible for their own violation at anothers hands, nope, all this does is create a void in your brain it removes a healthy reaction to a non reaction. By doing this a person becomes dull and boring. A person that never reacts to anything be it negative or positive is an automaton.. Not every little thing can be explained away by saying there is a barrier.... I know it makes life seem simple when looked at like that but it is not reality. I am an insomniac have been since the day I was born but I was told by a landmarkian that there was some barrier causing it. I just don't buy it. What else do we learn?? Anyone want to help me out?
My take is that the positive feelings (and landmark is not necessarily teaching anything bad for the most part, in general I think it is teaching simple things most people can figure out on their own) landmark leaves in people is from the mind manipulation the high they get from the forum.... Why can't people see that what they have been taught through landmark is nothing short of basic living skills?
What do we learn in the forum? To keep your word (something my parents taught me), have integrity (something I learned all on my own), create a possibility to achieve something (aka a plan), do not blame others or your past for present failures (duh wow I know many do this but it is easy to figure out that you achieve nothing with this way of thinking)..... All of these little life lessons are easily achieved without any mind manipulation, the mind manipulation is what has you leave the forum exhalted, high on life etc.... Without the mind manipulation you come to these findings without any big hoopla.....
What else do we learn in the forum, your reactions to others and what they have done to you creates a barrier, you are supposed to take responsibility for feeling like a violated victim when you were indeed a violated victim.... This I do not agree with, I do agree with finding a way to deal with it and moving on and to not hold on to it forever, but to say a person is responsible for their own violation at anothers hands, nope, all this does is create a void in your brain it removes a healthy reaction to a non reaction. By doing this a person becomes dull and boring. A person that never reacts to anything be it negative or positive is an automaton.. Not every little thing can be explained away by saying there is a barrier.... I know it makes life seem simple when looked at like that but it is not reality. I am an insomniac have been since the day I was born but I was told by a landmarkian that there was some barrier causing it. I just don't buy it. What else do we learn?? Anyone want to help me out?
My take is that the positive feelings (and landmark is not necessarily teaching anything bad for the most part, in general I think it is teaching simple things most people can figure out on their own) landmark leaves in people is from the mind manipulation the high they get from the forum.... Why can't people see that what they have been taught through landmark is nothing short of basic living skills?
Re: to those who have had positive LGAT experiences
Posted by:
Shy
()
Date: September 23, 2010 01:14AM
Quote
magpie
Have any one of you ever considered that the positivity you feel is because of the mind manipulation?
I never considered the LGAT i did to be mind manipulation. For me, it was a choice between doing what i'd been doing for the past 20 years (and obviously wasn't working) and doing something different and giving it a chance to potentially change my life.
What do we learn in the forum? To keep your word (something my parents taught me), have integrity (something I learned all on my own), create a possibility to achieve something (aka a plan), do not blame others or your past for present failures (duh wow I know many do this but it is easy to figure out that you achieve nothing with this way of thinking)..... All of these little life lessons are easily achieved without any mind manipulation, the mind manipulation is what has you leave the forum exhalted, high on life etc.... Without the mind manipulation you come to these findings without any big hoopla.....
Amen to that. On another note. I am unable to completely explain this; but having had some mental illness problems in my life before I did the LGAT, i walked in there thinking "if it doesn't fix me,..." and it fixed me. I experienced a sensation that is akin to nothing i have ever felt before. I am joyful and exhalted all on my own for having experienced it. I found my purpose in life, not how to do it, but what it is: I am Truth. And yes, i sound like a brainwashed a$$ from any other LGAT, except for I've been out of the workshops for two years, my life is AWESOME and no one (and i mean no one) has recruited me, demanded i do some free assisting on my own time. neither have i recruited anyone else. I let my actions speak for themselves.
People i did not know would compliment me on my behaviour, radient skin, whatever. And the people in my life, they would comment on how much i have changed. AND ONLY WHEN THEY ASK WHAT I"VE DONE WOULD I SHARE WITH THEM MY EXPERIENCE WITH THE WORKSHOPS.
"What else do we learn in the forum, your reactions to others and what they have done to you creates a barrier, you are supposed to take responsibility for feeling like a violated victim when you were indeed a violated victim...." YES! This I do not agree with, I do agree with finding a way to deal with it and moving on and to not hold on to it forever, but to say a person is responsible for their own violation at anothers hands, nope, all this does is create a void in your brain it removes a healthy reaction to a non reaction. By doing this a person becomes dull and boring. A person that never reacts to anything be it negative or positive is an automaton.. Not every little thing can be explained away by saying there is a barrier.... I know it makes life seem simple when looked at like that but it is not reality. I am an insomniac have been since the day I was born but I was told by a landmarkian that there was some barrier causing it. I just don't buy it. What else do we learn?? Anyone want to help me out?
My take is that the positive feelings (and landmark is not necessarily teaching anything bad for the most part, in general I think it is teaching simple things most people can figure out on their own) landmark leaves in people is from the mind manipulation the high they get from the forum.... Why can't people see that what they have been taught through landmark is nothing short of basic living skills?
Apart from it being basic life skills, if you've been taught a new way to live your life and it works for you (without obviously interfering with how other people live their lives) then awesome. Some have good experiences and some don't.
Re: to those who have had positive LGAT experiences
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: September 23, 2010 01:27AM
Shy:
What's important to realize is the inherent dangers of doing LGATs.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Note the liabilities, which are present in almost every LGAT.
13 liabilities of encounter groups, some of which are similar to characteristics of most current mass marathon psychotherapy training sessions:
1. They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.
2. They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.
3. They lack clearly defined responsibility.
4. They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.
5. They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.
6. They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.
7. They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.
8. They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.
9. They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.
10. They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.
11. They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.
12. They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.
13. They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.
The groups were determined to be dangerous when:
1. Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.
2. Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.
3. Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.
4. Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."
LGATs seem to often utilize "coercive persuasion" techniques to manipulate participants.
See [www.culteducation.com]
The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:
1. The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance
2. The use of an organized peer group
3. Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity
4. The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified
Noted psychiatrist and researcher Robert Lifton labeled the extraordinarily high degree of social control characteristic of organizations that operate reform programs as their totalistic quality (Lifton 1961). This concept refers to the mobilization of the entirety of the person's social, and often physical, environment in support of the manipulative effort. Lifton identified eight themes or properties of reform environments that contribute to their totalistic quality:
1. Control of communication
2. Emotional and behavioral manipulation
3. Demands for absolute conformity to behavior prescriptions derived from the ideology
4. Obsessive demands for confession
5. Agreement that the ideology is faultless
6. Manipulation of language in which cliches substitute for analytic thought
7. Reinterpretation of human experience and emotion in terms of doctrine
8. Classification of those not sharing the ideology as inferior and not worthy of respect
Thought reform (aka coercive persuasion or "brainwashing) is distinctly different from other forms of persuasion such as education, advertising, propaganda and indoctrination.
See [www.culteducation.com]
This chart makes distinctions between various forms of persuasion.
See [www.culteducation.com]
This is an archive of information about various "human potential" groups.
Note the history of problems and controversy surrounding such groups.
If you rewind many new groups their leaders often started with one of the older LGATs and simply devised a spin-off using many of the same techniques they learned at the previous group.
It is much safer to rely upon more credible alternatives such as continuing accredited education, counseling from a licensed professional and/or advice from family and friends, given the often sordid and destructive history of LGATs.
What's important to realize is the inherent dangers of doing LGATs.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Note the liabilities, which are present in almost every LGAT.
13 liabilities of encounter groups, some of which are similar to characteristics of most current mass marathon psychotherapy training sessions:
1. They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.
2. They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.
3. They lack clearly defined responsibility.
4. They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.
5. They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.
6. They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.
7. They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.
8. They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.
9. They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.
10. They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.
11. They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.
12. They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.
13. They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.
The groups were determined to be dangerous when:
1. Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.
2. Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.
3. Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.
4. Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."
LGATs seem to often utilize "coercive persuasion" techniques to manipulate participants.
See [www.culteducation.com]
The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:
1. The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance
2. The use of an organized peer group
3. Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity
4. The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified
Noted psychiatrist and researcher Robert Lifton labeled the extraordinarily high degree of social control characteristic of organizations that operate reform programs as their totalistic quality (Lifton 1961). This concept refers to the mobilization of the entirety of the person's social, and often physical, environment in support of the manipulative effort. Lifton identified eight themes or properties of reform environments that contribute to their totalistic quality:
1. Control of communication
2. Emotional and behavioral manipulation
3. Demands for absolute conformity to behavior prescriptions derived from the ideology
4. Obsessive demands for confession
5. Agreement that the ideology is faultless
6. Manipulation of language in which cliches substitute for analytic thought
7. Reinterpretation of human experience and emotion in terms of doctrine
8. Classification of those not sharing the ideology as inferior and not worthy of respect
Thought reform (aka coercive persuasion or "brainwashing) is distinctly different from other forms of persuasion such as education, advertising, propaganda and indoctrination.
See [www.culteducation.com]
This chart makes distinctions between various forms of persuasion.
See [www.culteducation.com]
This is an archive of information about various "human potential" groups.
Note the history of problems and controversy surrounding such groups.
If you rewind many new groups their leaders often started with one of the older LGATs and simply devised a spin-off using many of the same techniques they learned at the previous group.
It is much safer to rely upon more credible alternatives such as continuing accredited education, counseling from a licensed professional and/or advice from family and friends, given the often sordid and destructive history of LGATs.
Re: to those who have had positive LGAT experiences
Posted by:
magpie
()
Date: September 23, 2010 02:18AM
Thanks Rick that was very informative...
Ok also they teach you relatioships are important. They urge you to clear your past with past relationships (how I got to be so lucky to learn about landmark an ex needed to clear stuff up) They impart on you the importance of your family and to take people as they are do not try to change them. IN theory this is a nice little fairy tale, in reality it is BS. I could accept say my "mother" for having a mental illness that made her impossible to be around. Did I want to have an active relationship with her? NO. She refused to acknowledge her behaviour even though everyone around her said the same things to her. She went untreated until the day she died. I accepted I had a mentally impaired mother who was hell on wheels to be around but I did not foster a deeper relationship with her as it was detrimental for me, to do so.
In reality what Landmark does is make you stand apart from your loved ones (unless you can get them into it with you) You stand there, accepting of them and all their faults, with a cleared up past, but you will never again stand on the same ground. Now this is more for the addicts to landmark, perhaps one trip to the forum would not create so many problems but I believe continued activity in this "business" really does strip one of their identity. Of course they are deliriously happy, they are now narcissistic egomaniacs catering to their every whim. My ex now says he and I were never a match, he loved me greatly and did many things for me when we were together that made me believe it, but now thanks to landmark I was just another page in his book hardly worth a mention.
@Shy-
Did you ever wonder why if all Landmark was teaching you was basic stuff, stuff you can find in any self help book or with a little introspection why is it you feel this one course changed your whole life? Can you honestly say there was no other way to where you are now besides landmark? Do you think it is ok to open a persons minds and make it malleable to the suggestions of a person or a business that you don't even know? When mind manipulation is used properly, you don't even know it happened. I would be pretty pi$$ed if I found out my mind was manipulated in any way shape or form regardless if the outcome was positive, no one has that right.
Ok also they teach you relatioships are important. They urge you to clear your past with past relationships (how I got to be so lucky to learn about landmark an ex needed to clear stuff up) They impart on you the importance of your family and to take people as they are do not try to change them. IN theory this is a nice little fairy tale, in reality it is BS. I could accept say my "mother" for having a mental illness that made her impossible to be around. Did I want to have an active relationship with her? NO. She refused to acknowledge her behaviour even though everyone around her said the same things to her. She went untreated until the day she died. I accepted I had a mentally impaired mother who was hell on wheels to be around but I did not foster a deeper relationship with her as it was detrimental for me, to do so.
In reality what Landmark does is make you stand apart from your loved ones (unless you can get them into it with you) You stand there, accepting of them and all their faults, with a cleared up past, but you will never again stand on the same ground. Now this is more for the addicts to landmark, perhaps one trip to the forum would not create so many problems but I believe continued activity in this "business" really does strip one of their identity. Of course they are deliriously happy, they are now narcissistic egomaniacs catering to their every whim. My ex now says he and I were never a match, he loved me greatly and did many things for me when we were together that made me believe it, but now thanks to landmark I was just another page in his book hardly worth a mention.
@Shy-
Did you ever wonder why if all Landmark was teaching you was basic stuff, stuff you can find in any self help book or with a little introspection why is it you feel this one course changed your whole life? Can you honestly say there was no other way to where you are now besides landmark? Do you think it is ok to open a persons minds and make it malleable to the suggestions of a person or a business that you don't even know? When mind manipulation is used properly, you don't even know it happened. I would be pretty pi$$ed if I found out my mind was manipulated in any way shape or form regardless if the outcome was positive, no one has that right.
Re: to those who have had positive LGAT experiences
Posted by:
Shy
()
Date: September 23, 2010 02:29AM
Magpie, I CAN honestly say there was no other way to where i am now besides the LGAT i took part in. Reason for that is, i have a history of mental illness (locked up insane) and the LGAT managed to treat that to the point where i am no longer on medication. I am conscious of so much in my life and my choices are not clouded by chemical drugs. I don't have shutters on anymore.
For me, if this is mind manipulation, and i walked out fixed (which is what i wanted from it. Actually i walked into the workshop thinking "if this doesn't fix me i will kill myself") then it's not so bad. Other people have a bigger problem with thing like this. I am perfectly ok with it because it save me from a life hidden away, drugged out of my mind, in a padded room in a no name asylum somewhere. I am no a part of society.
Furthermore, I lack the self discipline to follow thru unless I'm convinced it's working or cost alot of money, hence the hefty fee of the workshops.
For me, if this is mind manipulation, and i walked out fixed (which is what i wanted from it. Actually i walked into the workshop thinking "if this doesn't fix me i will kill myself") then it's not so bad. Other people have a bigger problem with thing like this. I am perfectly ok with it because it save me from a life hidden away, drugged out of my mind, in a padded room in a no name asylum somewhere. I am no a part of society.
Furthermore, I lack the self discipline to follow thru unless I'm convinced it's working or cost alot of money, hence the hefty fee of the workshops.
Re: to those who have had positive LGAT experiences
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: September 23, 2010 05:12AM
Shy:
There you go again defending LGATs with the most outrageous claims.
An LGAT is no substitute for care by a qualified mental health professional.
And thinking otherwise is potentially dangerous.
In fact, LGATs have been linked to mental breakdowns.
See [www.culteducation.com]
This is a study concerning psychosis associated with est (Erhard Seminar Training) the precursor of Landmark Education.
A doctor that murdered her son had done Landmark Education training. Fellow staffers commented that after the training she was not the woman they once knew.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Three people that did ESP (Executive Success Programs) now known as NXIVM training, required psychiatric care.
See [www.culteducation.com]
One woman that did ESP walked out of the training and committed suicide. Her suicide note said, "I was brainwashed and my emotional center of the brain was killed/turned off. I still have feeling in my external skin, but my internal organs are rotting. Please contact my parents ... if you find me or this note. I am sorry life, I didn't know I was already dead. May we persist into the future."
See [www.culteducation.com]
Rather than curing mental illness it seems LGATs may actually contribute to mental breakdowns.
There you go again defending LGATs with the most outrageous claims.
An LGAT is no substitute for care by a qualified mental health professional.
And thinking otherwise is potentially dangerous.
In fact, LGATs have been linked to mental breakdowns.
See [www.culteducation.com]
This is a study concerning psychosis associated with est (Erhard Seminar Training) the precursor of Landmark Education.
A doctor that murdered her son had done Landmark Education training. Fellow staffers commented that after the training she was not the woman they once knew.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Three people that did ESP (Executive Success Programs) now known as NXIVM training, required psychiatric care.
See [www.culteducation.com]
One woman that did ESP walked out of the training and committed suicide. Her suicide note said, "I was brainwashed and my emotional center of the brain was killed/turned off. I still have feeling in my external skin, but my internal organs are rotting. Please contact my parents ... if you find me or this note. I am sorry life, I didn't know I was already dead. May we persist into the future."
See [www.culteducation.com]
Rather than curing mental illness it seems LGATs may actually contribute to mental breakdowns.
Re: to those who have had positive landmark experiences
Posted by:
Hopeful Soul
()
Date: September 23, 2010 06:55AM
Perhaps the following quote from George G. Ritchie, MD. in Return from Tomorrow, p. 16, will help Shy understand: "The insane, of all mortals, seem the most plausable to themselves."
I found this to be true for Impact Trainings graduates, and I'm sure that it is true for other LGATs as well.
I found this to be true for Impact Trainings graduates, and I'm sure that it is true for other LGATs as well.
Re: to those who have had positive landmark experiences
Posted by:
GloriaG
()
Date: September 23, 2010 09:09AM
Like Shy, I also got involved with Landmark as a last resort for depression. Unlike Shy it was possibly the most dangerous thing I did.
If I had known that they used trance, hypnosis, NLP to create a natural euphoria from our the opiates our bodies produce, then I would not have done it. This high did not come from any of the conscious teachings from Landmark. Many of those benign ideas such as building bridges in broken relationships can be found in any other self-help book. I didn't learn anything new from them in that way.
But I did complete the Forum feeling utterly amazing and believed I had the power to conquer the world. Thanks to the information on this website, I now know the real reason behind that. I've posted at length my experience on the hypnosis thread and don't wish to duplicate.
Landmark like to tell you at their induction night that they will tell you 'what you don't know, you don't know'. That is highly ironic to me now because they have the last laugh. You still don't know, what you don't know because they haven't told you it all.
If I had known that they used trance, hypnosis, NLP to create a natural euphoria from our the opiates our bodies produce, then I would not have done it. This high did not come from any of the conscious teachings from Landmark. Many of those benign ideas such as building bridges in broken relationships can be found in any other self-help book. I didn't learn anything new from them in that way.
But I did complete the Forum feeling utterly amazing and believed I had the power to conquer the world. Thanks to the information on this website, I now know the real reason behind that. I've posted at length my experience on the hypnosis thread and don't wish to duplicate.
Landmark like to tell you at their induction night that they will tell you 'what you don't know, you don't know'. That is highly ironic to me now because they have the last laugh. You still don't know, what you don't know because they haven't told you it all.
Re: to those who have had positive landmark experiences
Posted by:
magpie
()
Date: September 23, 2010 09:23PM
Shy,
Nothing about Landmark or LGAT is a therapy for severe mental illness, in fact Landmark specifically says it turns people down if they are known to have the history you have suggested you have. All they are doing is opening your mind to be suggestable (meaning it puts you into a state where you believe and absorb things you normally wouldn't or at least would question) Like Gloria states they teach you, you don't know, what you don't know. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to to say no shit sherlock, but under the manipulation it takes on a much greater meaning, it has something mystic to it. Without the mind manipulation, without the state they have put your mind into that statement is actually quite laughable if it is meant to actually mean more than it simply states. Everyone shold know we don't know what we don't know.
Gloria, I am going to go look at your thread.
I am not here to change anyones mind about landmark I am here asking if any "believer" Has ever even considered that the mind manipulation is what causes your euphoria, your happiness in these these courses since for the most part the only thing your getting out of them besides very obvious simple life lessons would be loaded language that no one understand besides other landmark graduates. This whether you choose to believe it or not Is A Big obvious sign about their intentions which is in the long run to differentiate you from others who do not do landmark making it difficult to socialize with anyone outside of landmark.
Nothing about Landmark or LGAT is a therapy for severe mental illness, in fact Landmark specifically says it turns people down if they are known to have the history you have suggested you have. All they are doing is opening your mind to be suggestable (meaning it puts you into a state where you believe and absorb things you normally wouldn't or at least would question) Like Gloria states they teach you, you don't know, what you don't know. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to to say no shit sherlock, but under the manipulation it takes on a much greater meaning, it has something mystic to it. Without the mind manipulation, without the state they have put your mind into that statement is actually quite laughable if it is meant to actually mean more than it simply states. Everyone shold know we don't know what we don't know.
Gloria, I am going to go look at your thread.
I am not here to change anyones mind about landmark I am here asking if any "believer" Has ever even considered that the mind manipulation is what causes your euphoria, your happiness in these these courses since for the most part the only thing your getting out of them besides very obvious simple life lessons would be loaded language that no one understand besides other landmark graduates. This whether you choose to believe it or not Is A Big obvious sign about their intentions which is in the long run to differentiate you from others who do not do landmark making it difficult to socialize with anyone outside of landmark.
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