Another gentle reminder from Professor Dutch:

[www.uwgb.edu]

Freedom of Speech

'The Constitution gives you the right to free speech. It gives your critics the right to rebut your claims or ignore you.

'As the late Hubert Humphrey once observed during the Sixties: "The right to free speech does not imply the right to be taken seriously. That depends on what is said."

'Nowhere in the Constitution is anyone guaranteed a right to freedom from criticism.


Some time ago, I was at a cafe. A person came in and asked the owner of the cafe if there were any jobs available.

The owner said, 'Leave me a copy of your resume.'

This, for a barista job.

Now, imagine someone coming in with the kind of background given by Eckhart Tolle (depression, sudden enlightenment, bliss on a park bench)
or BK (depression, half way house, cockroach sudden enlightement)..and
then walking in and asking that guy for a barista job.

He'd probably shake his head. And that fellow isnt being a mean guy. He's going to be entrusting that barista with the cash register, with equipment, with customer relations and supplies of coffee. He wants to make sure the person can use the equipment without damaging it or getting hurt.

Most of us would have great difficulty even getting an entry level office job with that sort of un-verifiable track record.

From Carboy:
What evidence would it take to prove your beliefs wrong?

my answer: Not much.

From Anticult:

"Its not surprising that it appears no Byron Katie supporter or professional is willing to logically and intelligently discuss the facts of the methods that Byron Katie uses on people.

my answer: can I try?

I also posted over on bk/et legit thread.

cultcity:

So you base your support of Byron Katie essentially upon your subjective experience.

When you answered Corboy's question "not much," please be much more specific.

Perhaps you should read more than a few pages of this thread to fully understand the problems and complaints about Katie.

That is the same idea as Popper, in terms of any theory being Falsifiable, or Testable.
Cognitive Therapy for example, has been put to hundreds of tests.

Byron Katie has refused to put The Work to any proper scientific tests, or controlled studies.
Meanwhile, she hires and recruits shills to make EXTREME claims about The Work, like saying it is a form of therapy, and that it ELIMINATES DEPRESSION.
That is probably not legal, and should be illegal.

Quote
corboy

And..here is a test to see whether a logical discussion is even possible between two parties. It is from Professor Steve Dutch's website.

[www.uwgb.edu]

"A Note to Visitors:

I will respond to questions and comments as time permits, but if you want to take issue with any position expressed here, you first have to answer this question:

What evidence would it take to prove your beliefs wrong?

I simply will not reply to challenges that do not address this question.

Refutability is one of the classic determinants of whether a theory can be called scientific. Moreover, I have found it to be a great general-purpose cut-through-the-crap question to determine whether somebody is interested in serious intellectual inquiry or just playing mind games."

Why does Byron Katie take people's wedding rings at her seminars?

Why does Byron Katie practice her own form of waking hypnosis, with her strange stories she tells?

Why does Byron Katie tell people to get beyond their stories, and yet she hammers everyone with her contrived story over and over?

Quote
cultcity
From Anticult:

"Its not surprising that it appears no Byron Katie supporter or professional is willing to logically and intelligently discuss the facts of the methods that Byron Katie uses on people.

my answer: can I try?

[link to primary thread on Byron Katie]

Byron Katie (the Work) Stephen Mitchell,
[forum.culteducation.com]
"Cults," Sects, and "New Religious Movements"

The Byron Katie virus has spread to Europe. Can you believe it?
Katie has the word narcissist written all over her face. Her philosophy is clearly a reflection of her personality(disorder).
Many people seem to promote The Work without any scrutiny. I just can't believe how they can miss all the obvious clues about Katie.
Katie used to be addicted to alcohol and now she is addicted to mind control. She still needs her kicks and she's definitely only in it for the power and the money.
Her method: four stupid questions and a guilt trip (which Katie calls a turnaround) is very effective indeed: it will cause more suffering. Katie's robotic facilitators will tell you you're doing a great job and you can make one confession after the other, come on, spill it: mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Yes, I'm guilty. You will literally bow your head to a facilitator and in return you'll get a crazy statement about loving reality. Why are people buying this?

Well said, guruwhacker. It is amazing that people think BK has something worth knowing, hearing, using, having, buying! The turnaround is downright crazzzzzzy. Loving reality, my ass. She's a freakin NUT!

I'm still wondering what's actually wrong with Katie: did she have a stroke which turned her into a heartless robot, does she have a personality disorder (narcissist/sociopath) or is she just a a ruthless businesswoman?
Don't people know that predators don't always look like Dracula, but that they can actually look like a smiling grey haired grandmother (who's here to suck the life out of you)? We already know Katie was a mother from hell; no wonder her son Ross Robinson wanted to bash his guitar in a heavy metal band, I would be tempted too if I had to take so much shit from my mother.
I feel sorry for the poor men and women who are selling their souls to Katie....they'll get nothing worth while in return, not even a ticket to oblivion. They'll just get more pain and misery and they have to pay for it too. Isn't that ironic? Katie is here to destroy our 'sacred little concepts', she'll give you her own deranged little concepts in return. Remember that quote from her book Losing the moon? It's about a nazi throwing a baby in a fire pit. The nazi: reality = God, according to Katie. God is everyting and God is Good.
'Can you know that Hitler didn't bring more people to realization than Jesus? On your knees - God. God! God!
Wow, doesn't Katie just love to bring you to your knees.......

When I've watched clips of Byron Katie, the way she uses the four questions and turn-around seems to be mature. Infact with the turn-around, she said the first questions come first, because otherwise it will seem harsh and self-judgemental. The purpose of the turn-around in my own experience is to create doubt in habitual thinking. As, what is true needs no justification or rationalization.

But often when I'm inspired by the "state" or philosophical outlook of someone as a spiritual teacher or otherwise inspiring person, I have no interest in joining organizations founded on them. Because the people in them may be able to parrot but not understand the meaning of what that teacher is talking about.

For instance, how do religions become so far off the mark from what their founders were talking about? How did Jesus' teachings become used for the Crusades and Inquisition? Most people in this world are completely confused, don't know much, but think they do. Most people cannot be relied on for help or advise. Byron Katie herself though has struck me as an illumined person, genuinely in a state of Grace, and speaking pure wisdom. And the same for othter teachers.

Her point on whether something should have happened, for instance abuse. I've suffered milder abuse in my life but traumatic nonetheless. And I can't speak for someone who is an incest survivor. The point Byron Katie was making was not whether it should have happened from a moral or ethical standpoint, but that what happens in the world, and in our lives, most of it is out of our control. That seems really sensible. So whether abuse should or shouldn't happen is a question of whether it did happen. The book is titled Loving What is, for the reason that What is, is out of our control, it happens whether we like it or not. So it's not a matter of staying in abusive relationships, obviously it is sensible to leave where the option is there. What if as children we can't leave?

It's also sensible to stand up and defend people who are victimized in such a way. The victim mentality though is differnt. The victim mentality has in my own case caused me to even seek out people who would treat me abusively. It prevents clear, and fluid responses to situations, it prevents acting effectually to be in better circumstances. So questioning habits of thinking, which lead to habits of action seems really sensible. Yes, most of what we believe about the world and our lives, if not all of it are concepts that are often a loose fit. So it makes sense to question those concepts. To question self-concepts and concepts of others, to live in a space of not jumping to conclusions that are often wrong.