Quote
rrmoderator
You seem to be doing a bit of victim bashing here.

You seem to be identifying everyone here as a "victim." In fact, there are people who come to these boards who've been involved with a teacher or group, and have left or are considering leaving, and want to understand what happened, and chart a future direction. By putting them into a "victim" box, you're not serving their needs.

Quote
rrmoderator
Why attempt to blame those hurt by enlightenment salespeople, rather than discussing the apparent "scam" such salespeople may be running?

If someone is suffering from binging on ice cream, you could try to help them by discussing how evil and devious icecream salespeople are. Or you could discuss how to overcome their own ice cream obsession. If they can understand and free themselves from their own ice cream addiction, then it'll be IRRELEVENT who happens to be selling it.

Quote
rrmoderator
What about the responsibility that teachers have regarding their students?

If the members of this forum were teachers, THEN it'd make sense to talk about teachers' responsibilities. But your audience here is students. By throwing responsibility onto the ice cream sellers (instead of the ice cream eaters), the message you give to this particular audience is to AVOID personal responsibility.

Quote
rrmoderator
Law enforcement authorities then decide how to proceed, i.e. if a law has been broken.
No guns need be involved.

Law enforcement doesn't use guns where you live??

Quote
rrmoderator
People under undue influence may not be able to ojectively "examine [such] beliefs, observe [the] effects, and decide whether or not to hold them or question them."

If you don't trust people to make their own decisions, then you're against a live-and-let-live society. Even if people aren't perfect in making their own life decisions, they still may be much much better off making their own decisions (and learning their own lessons), rather than having you force your decisions on them.

Isn't it possible that people who come to this forum are painfully embarrassed about the decisions they made in the past? Doesn't it make sense that when you encourage them to deny personal responsibiltiy, and place all blame on others, that they'll jump at the chance to do so? And though it may be easy and pleasant to avoid examination to always blame others, it's not necessarily the best or only long-term option.

You help an alcoholic by pointing them to examine the effects of their own decisions. You don't help them by trying to shut down bars.

Stuart
[stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com]

Quote
rrmoderator
RandomStu:

"'Brainwashing dogma'"?

"this 'anticult' dogma"?

Frankly, you seem to have bought into a cult apologist dogma and accompanying victim bashing.

Seems like you never really sorted through your own cult experience very well.

Perhaps you should read and learn more before commenting.

It seems you are either ignorant and out of your depth or in denial.

You're using typical cultish techniques here, rrmoderator... by personally attacking those who don't share your dogma, rather than encouraging intelligent discussion and examination. "Perhaps you should read and learn more before commenting." What could be a more obvious attempt to shut out any ideas that might challenge your cherished beliefs?

And good job with the name-calling... clearly, anyone who doesn't accept your pronouncements must be "ignorant." If you keep that up, attacking and insulting anyone with alternate views, then maybe you'll be able to limit this discussion to sheep-like followers.

Stuart
[stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com]

For those who want to see some arguments within the SY fold visit and read the comments following this article.

To really cut to the chase, scroll down and start reading the comments
that begin on February 5th.

[ritualsofdisenchantment.blogspot.com]

RandomStu:

Your last response was little more than a flame.

Your comments on this thread do seem ignorant.

You apparently have not seriously studied the implications of thought reform or coercive persuasion.

And attacking those that disagree with you as somehow being "dogmatic" isn't a meaningful response.

"Sheep like followers" is the point.

How can "sheep like followers" be responsible for the decisions they make while under undue influence?

You don't appear to consider this and apparently are in denial about the powers of coercive persuasion.

Quote
corboy
For those who want to see some arguments within the SY fold visit and read the comments following this article.

To really cut to the chase, scroll down and start reading the comments
that begin on February 5th.

[ritualsofdisenchantment.blogspot.com]

Good find, Corb. Here is one of the comments from that thread, directed to Stuart, which echoes my experience of him in this forum:

"Stuart – To summarize the entire affair, IMHO a reasonable person with a dollop’s worth of sense and compassion would have simply recanted and apologized. Your self-defensive posturing strikes me as rather intellectually and emotionally immature, if not down right perverse. I’m aware of numerous postings of yours on net that intend to preach and encourage the quality of compassionate action; however, the actions reflected in your own posts seem starkly devoid of this very same ethic."

Interestingly, Stuart pictures himself with a literally swelled head at a website where he postures as a guru:

[[url=http://www.allexperts.com/ep/948-73730/Buddhists/Stuart-Resnick.htm]All Experts dot com - Stuart Resnick Profile[/url]]

I'll refrain from spelling out what the swelled head may represent.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2008 09:08AM by helpme2times.

Quote
helpme2times

Quote
corboy
For those who want to see some arguments within the SY fold visit and read the comments following this article.

To really cut to the chase, scroll down and start reading the comments
that begin on February 5th.

[ritualsofdisenchantment.blogspot.com]

Good find, Corb. Here is one of the comments from that thread, directed to Stuart, which echoes my experience of him in this forum:

"Stuart – To summarize the entire affair, IMHO a reasonable person with a dollop’s worth of sense and compassion would have simply recanted and apologized. Your self-defensive posturing strikes me as rather intellectually and emotionally immature, if not down right perverse. I’m aware of numerous postings of yours on net that intend to preach and encourage the quality of compassionate action; however, the actions reflected in your own posts seem starkly devoid of this very same ethic."

Interestingly, Stuart pictures himself with a literally swelled head at a website where he postures as a guru:

[[url=http://www.allexperts.com/ep/948-73730/Buddhists/Stuart-Resnick.htm]All Experts dot com - Stuart Resnick Profile[/url]]

I'll refrain from spelling out what the swelled head may represent.

so, can someone enlighten me--is this guy saying that he's a spiritual giant upon whose shoulders all should long to stand, or is he mimicking a real (or perceived) giant, whose 'shoulders' he aspires to make his own?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2008 10:31AM by ON2 LF.

Quote
ON2 LF
so, can someone enlighten me--is this guy saying that he's a spiritual giant upon whose shoulders all should long to stand, or is he mimicking a real (or perceived) giant, whose 'shoulders' he aspires to make his own?

All I'll say is, that pic is quite symbolic to me. Very telling. You get to decide what it says to you. :-)

To me this is a pretty good example of some of the problems with some people in the so-called spiritual community. They have no problem bashing outrageous criminal Gurus, like Sai Baba, and one's at that level. That's obvious and easy.

But its just as important, or even more important, to point out the problems with those who are in the middle of the pack, who wear sweaters, smile, weep, hug, and who target soccer moms, like Byron Katie.

Its interesting to see some of the obvious Mind-Games our good buddy Stuart Resnick is trying to play here. Pretty standard issue.
Notice the thread is about Byron Katie, but instead of discussing the specific problems with Byron Katie, he wants to DISTRACT and DEFLECT and attack. Pretty standard.
He refuses to address the fabrications, lies, distortions, techniques, tricks, and all the other problems of Byron Katie. Again, very typical.

And just ludicrous examples, embarrasing.
For example, comparing LGAT New Age culty leaders to ice cream salesmen? I don't want to be as cold as ice-cream, but that is one of the most asinine things I have seen posted on these forums in a long time.
But its not asinine, actually, its a deception.
He's doing the same thing with the concepts of hypnosis, "brainwashing" and everything else so far. Of course those are very complex concepts, and one could start a NEW THREAD to explore those concepts in great technical detail.

But instead of defining the concepts, they use those words to DEFLECT from the real issues. It can be an effective strategy if the person falls for it.
Its simply a method to avoid dealing with the SPECIFIC PROBLEMS WITH BYRON KATIE.
I've seen Carol Skolnick do that over and over, for example. You literally CANNOT pin her down to a specific factual issue. (maybe they taught that in Siddha Yoga??)

So if you go to your Guru and ask them about their LIES, they start screaming at you about something else, to distract you from the subject. Same thing here, seems to me.

He also obviously hasn't read the threads here about Byron Katie.

Its strange how some people in the so-called spiritual community can be so used to DECEPTION, its all they seem to know?
Instead of just being honest, and saying, for example..."hey, Carol Skolnick and Steven Sashen are my friends" and going from there, the entire thing gets twisted into some weird meaningless distortion that has basically nothing to do with the actual facts of the subject at hand. Maybe its thought out, maybe its just the only way a person knows how to behave?

Who knows what Stuart Resnick's real agenda is, I see a lot of conscious distortion, Mind-Games, deflection, distraction, hysterics, and an attempt to derail the threads about our blessed perfect enlightened Guru of the cockroach....

Why not talk about Byron Katie writing (then suppressing) that Nazi's burning babies alive while their mothers watched, is the loving work of her idea of "God"?

Or why not talk about Carol Skolnicks pre-framing the public for a Byron Katie Love-Bomb?


No, better not talk about the facts...better to distort, distract, deny, attack, etc.
Expect more of the same from the Byron Katie camp in the future.

Just imagine the shit that would go down inside the Byron Katie inner circle if you DARED to ask some tough questions of Byron Katie or her top people.
You would be out on your ass before the words left your mouth. Shunned. KICKED OUT ON YOUR ASS WITH NOTHING. Byron Katie already shuns people who don't do what she wants, even at basic live events.

One wonders about possible retaliations?

[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote

What is The Work? It seems to change daily? Why? Where are the explanations?

Does it need to be immediately reported the psychological authorities in California?

There were detailed and what appeared like extreme psychological and even medical CLAIMS being made on "What Is The Work" website of Byron Katie.
But sometime after Feb 23, 2008 they were DELETED from their webpage, and that area was left blank.
Its all explained starting at this link in the other thread.
[forum.culteducation.com]

But now as of March 03, 2008, they have reposted and CHANGED at least 6 CLAIMS.
That page of The Work website no longer says The Work is:
________________________________________________
"a way to end all your stress and suffering",
'Eliminate stress: Live without anxiety or fear'
"Reduce anger: Get angry less often and less intensely, and eventually not at all"
"Eliminate depression: See perfection in situations that were once debilitating"
"Clarity: Act more intelligently and effectively"
"Peace: Learn how to love what is, and find lasting inner peace"
_________________________________________________

But another of the Byron Katie webpages STILL retains those original medical sounding extreme psychological claims as of March 3, 2008.
[www.thework.com]
Also, about 200 other internet sites STILL contain the original extreme psychological claims! Put any of those claims into a search engine in "quotes" like this and look at all the duplicate sites.

"Eliminate depression: See perfection in situations that were once debilitating"

Does this not appear to need to be reported immediately to the authorities?
_________________________________________________
If any citizen has any concerns or questions about psychological claims being made, they can make a confidential complaint to the California Board of Psychology. [www.psychboard.ca.gov]
_________________________________________________



Now here is the "new" version of their Claims, profoundly altered, in at least 6 main ways. Compare for yourself.
[www.thework.com] (as of March 3, 2008)

Quote

What is The Work?
The Work is a simple yet powerful process of inquiry that teaches you to identify and question thoughts that cause all the suffering in the world. It's a way to understand what's hurting you, and to address your problems with clarity.

People who do The Work as an ongoing practice report life-changing results.

Alleviation of depression: Find resolution, and even happiness, in situations that were once debilitating
Decreased stress: Learn how to live with less anxiety or fear
Improved relationships: Experience deeper connection and intimacy with your partner, your parents, your children, your friends, and yourself
Reduced anger: Understand what makes you angry and resentful, and become less reactive, less often, with less intensity
Increased mental clarity: Live and work more intelligently and effectively, with integrity
More energy: Experience a new sense of ongoing vigor and well-being
More peace: Discover how to become "a lover of what is"

[Below is pasted the original text of Claims that appeared on that web-page as of 23 Feb 2008 19:13:19 GMT]
[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote

What is The Work?
The Work is a simple yet powerful process of inquiry that teaches you to identify and question the stressful thoughts that cause all the suffering in the world. It's a way to understand what's hurting you, a way to end all your stress and suffering.

People who do The Work faithfully report life-changing results.

Eliminate stress: Live without anxiety or fear
Improve relationships: Have a new sense of connection and intimacy with your husband or wife, your parents, your children, and with yourself
Reduce anger: Get angry less often and less intensely, and eventually not at all
Eliminate depression: See perfection in situations that were once debilitating
Clarity: Act more intelligently and effectively
Energy: Experience a new sense of vigor and well-being
Peace: Learn how to love what is, and find lasting inner peace

_________________________________________________
If any citizen has any concerns or questions about psychological claims being made, they can make a confidential complaint to the California Board of Psychology. [www.psychboard.ca.gov]
_________________________________________________

___________________________________________________
Here is some general information about the simple process of making a complaint.

Complaints can be made confidentially, and there is information on the sites about privacy protections.

Complaints can protect future consumers from also being victims of unlicensed abusive group psychotherapy, due to warnings received.
Consumer Activism can force abusive organizations to be less harmful, and protect other consumers from sustaining damage that can last for years.
Please post and link to this information in relevant locations.

Do complaints matter?
There was a recent case of "The Gentle Wind Project" that after a series of complaints to the Attorney General from former members, and after an extended process, they were shut-down, and restitution and reimbursement were given to victims. [www.windofchanges.org]


_________________________________________________
This is where complaints can be laid against LCSWs, others, and "those individuals who may be practicing illegally without a license."
California, Board of Behavioral Sciences Online Consumer Complaint Form
[app.dca.ca.gov]
______________________________________________________
If any citizen has any concerns or questions about psychological claims being made, they can make a confidential complaint to the California Board of Psychology. [www.psychboard.ca.gov]
From Website:


Quote:
Complaints received by the Board of Psychology (Board) are considered confidential, and not subject to disclosure
The California Board of Psychology protects the safety and welfare of consumers of psychological services.
Who May File a Complaint?
Anyone who thinks that a psychologist, psychological assistant or registered psychologist has acted illegally, irresponsibly, or unprofessionally may file a complaint with the Board of Psychology.
-sexual contact with a patient
-violating the patient's confidentiality
-providing services for which the individual has not been trained or licensed
-drug abuse
-fraud or other crimes
-false advertising
-paying or accepting payment for patient referral
-unprofessional, unethical, or negligent acts
-focusing therapy on the licensee's/registrant's own problems, rather than the patient's
-serving in multiple roles, i.e., having social relationships with patients, lending them money, employing them, etc.

Note: Everyone has the right to file a complaint without fear of harassment. If you feel you are being harassed by the licensee/registrant you've complained about, you should notify the Board immediately.
Complaints that are not within the Board's jurisdiction will be referred to the appropriate agency, and the complainant will be notified.

_________________________________________________
California Attorney General's Office Consumer Complaints
[ag.ca.gov]

_________________________________________________

Use this form to submit a complaint to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) Bureau of Consumer Protection about a particular company or organization.
[rn.ftc.gov]
_______________________________________________

IRS Complaint Process For Tax Exempt Organizations
[www.irs.gov]

A warning to readers of this thread...

A little while ago I was re-reading some of the old posts in the two Byron Katie threads. When I clicked on a few of the links to Byron Katie's old web pages, I received red alert warnings from my virus protection system that they contained "exploit threats".

This is a link to a web page that talks about exploit threats. Scroll down and read the section called "Understanding the Exploit Threat":

[[url=http://www.explabs.com/about/mediaCenter/pr_120507_01.asp]Keep Your Surfing Safe[/url]]