Hi all,

I think that this is an excellent thread and there are two specific aspects of it that I would be grateful to discuss further.

1) As Concerned Oz has detailed, the philosophy behind the predominant LGATs is existentialism. Oz, from where did you get the objections to the existentialist account that you detailed in your post? Are these common objections (amongst philosophers) or your own?

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This is a big one and at the extreme end of Existentialism. As to the first part, "I give meaning to everything"
* This implies that before you existed, existence had no meaning;
* This implies that everything you do not know about has no meaning or is objectified;
* This implies that when you die, existence reverts back to having no meaning;

Are there any posts or other documents that look in more detail at how existentialist philosophy is used by LGATs like landmark?

I studied Sartre's existentialist philosophy briefly on a 'Practical Ethics' course at University just recently and I was greatly impressed by it, enthused in fact. So it would seem that the conditioning from the LGAT course that I have attended twice is still in effect, but this leads me to my next question:


2) Should I seek to 'undo' or 'remove' *all* programming I received from the LGAT?

There are two strands to this question:

(i) What if some of the ideas / philosophies pushed by LGATs are genuinely useful/ empowering? Existentialist philosophy is popular amongst students and after studying it 'properly' (e.g. academically), I may decide that I accept it and want to use it on a day to day basis, but then if once in the past I had it 'programmed into me', am I ever in a safe or 'objective' position to do this?

(ii) Are all my ideas and philosophies that I see as having come from the LGAT actually from the LGAT? What if I believed something before I attended the LGAT and only had it re-affirmed by the LGAT? How can I separate my 'genuine' ideas and philosophies from those implanted by the LGAT, from those re-affirmed by the LGAT, or even from those that weren't related to the LGAT at all, but that post-hoc I now attribute to the LGAT?


I'm very glad to have found this board :-)

I would be very interested to hear how others have gone about deprogramming themselves!!

when i attended landmarks filthy event called the forum i was
one of the few people to walk away and not be taken up with
all their deception but to make sure i began to do something
that i always loved to do before.

i would isten to very good music. i like it loud so i would play
it loudly. i would sometimes play a certain song that i loved over
and over. it was quite uplifting and if u can find good music
that u love u will find that this will help tremendously.


there is something that landmark can never touch.
and that something is love.

there is something that landmark can never touch.
and that something is love[/color:a0a02bb785]

Don't they make you change the meaning of your past? Turn it into a story? So how can whatever you loved, whether material, passion, tastes or person, still remain?

yes they do. and they are experts at it. but one of the best
things people can do for themselves is to love other people.
if people want to get past their experience with landmark,
music, is one of the best medicines there are.

they may get their victims to distort it, to hate it, to make
them believe it doesnt mean anything but still if someone wants
to rid themselves of landmarks filth, love is all u need.

and i didnt quite answer your question. landmark succeds
at getting people in their mind to basicaly forget or to
put it their past out of their minds.

just because the people are foolish enought to do so doesnt
mean that the memories arent still there. they are just
suppressed. i believed if landmark was capable of removing
memories they would do just that. they cant.

they can only get the people to suppress them.

music can used as a key to unlock what they have been
convinced to forget.

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patrick-darcy
and i didnt quite answer your question. landmark succeds
at getting people in their mind to basicaly forget or to
put it their past out of their minds.

just because the people are foolish enought to do so doesnt
mean that the memories arent still there. they are just
suppressed. i believed if landmark was capable of removing
memories they would do just that. they cant.

they can only get the people to suppress them.

music can used as a key to unlock what they have been
convinced to forget.

Kind of hard when they are not in front of you anymore to make them listen to music, :( also hard to show all the love you want, when there is that barrier there keeping it from going through, :(

Main things for me to deprogram after Landmark I think are:

- Impulsive choices. It is good to think about stuff carefully and be aware of the implications before you choose. Nothing wrong with basing yourself upon a reason

- You can change your mind. Don't have to always be your word.

- Feeling 'you are right' is OK, not something to suppress. I think the racket concept is one of the most clever ways to get Landmarkers to do anything without complaining (like when assisting)

- Stop thinking in possibilities always. Face the facts and do what needs doing. Instead of escaping into the fantasy of a new possiblity that will solve everything (in your head, it detaches from reality!)

- It is fine to not always say what's on your mind. Don't have to always be open.

- Discussion, stories, opinions and reasons matter!

I guess it's all about finding the right balance....

what u have just posted is basically stating thats it ok
to be human. landmark takes away peoples humanity
for their own profit and greed.

My gf is currently going to Landmark classes. At least she's been through the Advanced, and wants to take more. Though she's said she knows they don't fix everything, and aren't for everyone, she still goes. It isn't my position to force her to stop. But it does create friction.

I too studied philosophy, quite a bit, years ago, and find Landmark NOT a healthy way of teaching. They break down one's cognitive reasoning.

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How can people be so irresponsible and evil. I really don't understand that...

I know you know the answer to this, and can see it. Though it's interesting how good people won't see what's going on here, even with it directly in front of their eyes. Why do they do this you ask? Well, for the people at the bottom, the helpers, history has shown that time and again:

[i:dae62b41e6]"Given the absolute freedom to do whatever they choose, most people imitate one another ". - Eric Hoffer [/i:dae62b41e6]

The helpers at the bottom are choosing [i:dae62b41e6]not to think[/i:dae62b41e6]. Why do those at the top hurt people like this? This should blatantly stare you right in the face: Blind ambition, motivated by money. Money, money, money. Money and power. And what does absolute power do?

Cruisader, you are correct in what you are saying about what there is to "deprogram" after leaving LE programs. I have been involved with LE for almost 3 years now (I am just finishing my last program) and have been a vocal critic of their business practices, training and how people are treated. I have taken my complaints to the highest level of the organization.

I came to LE based on the recommendation of experience of a lot of my then-coworkers. I have always been a person of integrity, reliability and I have been successful. I have never in my life seen so many people lacking in basic integrity - keeping their word - in my life. And I'm a lawyer who worked in politics in NY State! It's been quite astounding.

You are exactly right when you state that they use rackets and impulsive decision-making to get you to provide free services. I read a great book a year ago called The Psychology of Influence that exactly sets out the techniques they use. I myself was a victim (and that's quite a manipulastive word there) of those very technigues. I was publicly chastised and humiliated on countless occasions for questioning the logic and integrity of what went on. You should have been there when I was in the ILP and brought up the cult conversation....or other friends of mine did in other programs!!!

I feel quite violated by the experience, but I am certain that I will be able to use it to help and warn others.