Quote
Katydid
P-D

Why not tell everybody your top three or top five objections to LF and whether you got anything (good or bad) out of it. What I've gotten so far is:

1. Landmark uses hypnoosis

2. Landmark uses hypnosis without permission

3. A program that involves hypnosis is no place for education

4. In some LF excercises, attendees are told it is a fear excercise and in others in is called an empowerment excercise

5. People are not thinking for themselves in this excercise

6. Landmark is creating an emotional response in attendees instead of attendees creating it inthemselves

7. LF/LEC benefits from conducting the LF

8. LF is more concerned with their own benefit than the attendees benefit

9. "Enlightenment" which people may have is to Landmark's way of thinking and it is what Landmark perceives

10. Landmark is trying to make everyone be as one

11. Werner Ehrhard is in every LF in the world

12. Werner Ehrhard gets 50 percent of the gross profits from LF/LEC

13. LF/LEC techniques gives the power to the leader and takes it away from the attendees

If there's more - spell it out please.

If "u" want a direct answer ask a clear, direct, unassuming question. Otherwise, you may have a very long wait.

Your Question from your first post:

"my question is how does this empower
someone. how does making someone under
hypnosis more powerful ?"

The question I answered was What I Understood the Excercise to Mean and What My Experience was during the exercise, i,e "So that's my interpretation of the exercise "

Your Two Questions from your second post:

"do u believe that that hypnosis that
is used at landmark is done for the
benefit of the participants or for
the benefit of landmark, or maybe
for some of both."

"do u feel it is appropriate to hypnotise people without their permission in order to do what landmark percieves is in their best
interests ?"

Your Second & Third Question both assume as a premise that Hypnosis is used (and, if so, whether it is a) appropriate and b) without the participant's permission.

Your Questions from your third post:

"according to u is it ok for landmark
to use hpynosis on the crowds in order
to enlighten them, according to landmarks way of thinking ?"

"can u think of an alternative way to
make the crowd be as one ?"

Your Fourth Question also assumes that hypnosis is used.

Your Fifth Question assumes that the crowd was being as one.

My answers to your Questions:

I have no idea whether the method used in the excercise is hypnosis as I am not trained as an expert and have not read about the wide variety of ways to hypnotize people.

I have done guided imagery in athletics, biofeedback and meditative breathing. Are those Hypnosis? I have no idea. Was it any different than the LEC excercise? Not for me (I have no idea how it was for others).

In my opinion: Everything Landmark does is in Landmark's financial business interest. Anything the particpants learn or are "enlightened" about is a bonus to the participants. This is called capitalism and if you watch television for an hour you will see almost every Landmark "technique" in advertising.

LEC participants are free to come and go throughout the entire weekend - I did and so did others. They are responsible for "perceiving" what is in the own best interests.

In the 2 LFs I have done and the advanced course, our room was far from "being one" at any time during the weekend. So if LF was trying "make the crowd be as one," LF failed.


no, landmark didnt fail. landmark was
quite successful. even though people
once they leave the forum will use
what they say they got somewhat differently, there are some changes
in the people that usually the same.

landmark grads tend to get annoyed when anyone questions their program.

landmark grads tend to move their lives in a direction where there are
more landmark grads.

many people give so much of their time
volunteering for landmark that their
lives fall apart in other areas.

landmark grads use jargon and seem to
enjoy it.

there are other things that are similar. of course people are somewhat
different so they may not take the
landmark stuff in completely the same
direction.



_____________________
common sense is all u need

Quote
glenn7
no i was not getting angry darcy!
you should not jump to conclusion.
that listening hearing thing again darcy.

ok,


there that jargon thing again darcy.
ok sorry this is for you darcy.
listen hearing= to listen to what someone said and with out your
interparation impeeding or your preconceived ideas or jumping to conclusion.


i wasnt jumping to conclustions. i
thought i could tell u were a little
antsy thats all.

they tell you that in the course darcy.
so when they say listening hearing
every one knows they mean.
listen hearing= to listen to what someone said and with out your
interparation impeeding or your preconceived ideas or jumping to conclusion.

it is there jargon you are right.

ok

same as computor jargon or terminolagy
ram hard drive mother board for eg.
thats why grads us jargon.....
i better tell my computor guy to stop using jargon, nah i know what he is talking about and it's ok by me.

maybe this is is your interpretation
of life has no meaning. u seem to
put human life on the same scale as
u would your computer.



what is your fear darcy?

i have no fear


question 1.....can u explain what " i would go on
with it " means.
trust, i will explain.. i trusted the forum leader to go along with what he wanted me to do.

exactly what landmark wanted u to do.
they want u to trust them. i find it
fascinating that by filling u with
jargon and meaninglessness u trust them, so surprises there.





and not detract myself. eg by opening my eyes and looking around the room.
like your teacher at uni , do this darcy, and you do.
not question them.

im not exactly sure what u mean by this last statement. i think u are
saying that i should not have opened
my eyes and checked out the people
that were wailing and screaming and
crying and that if i had not done this
i would have better able to have gotten this part of the couse as
landmark intended.





glenn , how do u deal with fear now
and how is it different from before ?
before i would some how get around my fear by making excuses not to do it, or say it did not matter, or blame someone else.
not i confront my fears.


if landmark was using hypnosis on the
crowd without them being aware of it
is it justified to do this as long as
the participants come away feeling
better about themselves.

come away feeling better about themselves for a SHORT TIME,
no! thats selling some thing.
come away feeling better about themselves and having better relations, more confidence, to be positive, to be happier, to give themselves to love, to over come there fears, to brake down there walls, to let people in, to be more productive, to get what they want, to understand people better, to be able to give peole support, etc
yes


i think u mean that if u come away
feeling feeling better for a considerable amount of time that yes
hypnosis (and this is hypothetical)
justifyies the means. am i correct ?



darcy,,
that does bring up another point.
what is it with people and commitments
when the forum leaders dont honor
their commitments ?

of course this probably doesnt mean
anything to u.

it does darcy,
your racket, oops jargon again sorry
your preconcieved idea from your past.
thats where peconvieved idea's come from did you know?
the past.

isnt a commitment something u make
be ? shouldnt the forum leader be
more capable than keeping commitments
that the newbiews ? shouldnt someone
who is leading a forum not make
commitments they have no intention
or no ability to keep ?






no reason to get crazy. no reason
to get defensive, but understand your
reaction is exactly the same as practically all landmark grads. you
react to blunt up front question about
landmark by hollering about rackets
and making people wrong,just answer
the question.
just answer the question damm you speak harder than landmark leaders, they never said to anyone just answer the question,

have you done the advanced course darcy,and if not why????


no i have not done the advanced course
and there are several reasons for this.

i believe landmark is a cult

i believe landmark brainwashed people.

even if i didnt think these things
i dont believe enlightenment can
purchased over a few days for a fist
full of money.

theres probably some other reasons
but these hopefully will do.




i would lie it if you answered this question for me darcy.

darcy quoted
believe but am not sure, but i think
at the beginning the planted people in
the forum do begin to wimper and cry
in order for the people to get it and
start wailing and screaming and crying.

i think its both. some of the people
know to cry, they have been there before , therefore the newbies fall
into line.

the planted people, wow..
my friend cried in that one she was a newbie as you call them,
i wounder how much money she was getting, or what they did to get her to cry?

if this was her first time to attend
a forum i dont believe they would have
paid her anything. i am talking about
people that are either employed by landmark or retake the course. a refresher, if u will.





darcy you did not get that one,
do you have any idea what it and the other empowering exercises, yes there were others, were about?

i have spoken to many landmark grads,
not just forum grads and mainly
many of them tell me that the advanced
and some of the other courses are
basically rehashing the forum with
some new twists and ideas thrown in.




and again the question darcy, i would like it if you answered this question for me,
have you done the advanced course, i know you have not do it darcy.
i would like you to say it but.. see how much integrity you have.
ooops jargon again sorry.

forum leaders telling paid participants of the forum that they
will have them out of the place by
a certain time and then not doing it
is landmark integrity. landmark changes the meanings of so many words
and then u need to be in integrity,
of course if they are not then, there
is usually some excuse thrown out and
here is what i usually hear,

they're only human.






integrity=being honest with yourself and anyone you deal, talk associate with.

werner started est, now landmark, one
of his more famous quotes is

"i have no truth"

where u have no truth u will not find
real integrity. get it :)





thats why grads use jargon to other landmark people it is easier to use, you know less typing or talking.
don't be scared of jargon or is that your racket. oops

the jargon is created to give their
clients a sense of community. i understand this, especially in the united states. in the u s we have
less and less a sense of community.
we have less and less a sense of
one another. its a human need, landmark uses their program to embed
a false sense of community in their
people, it makes them feel good about
themselves.




brain washing darcy, believe it or not we get brain washed every day.

i answered your questions darcy, as far as i know please point out any other questions i have not asked.

ps you did not answer this one of mine.
it is a direct question so i should get a quick response,
as you have said to someone else here,
direct questions are easy.

What is your fear darcy?


i have no fear. and if u will read
my earlier posts i did not ask u what
your fear was but how u were dealing with it, whether it be one or two or
however how many fears u perceive.

i am not asking u to tell me your fear, but how u deal with fear differently than before.



sincerely glenn

Quote
Katydid
I'm having a really hard time following the exchange on this thread right now. Why are entire posts being copied and reposted? Sometimes there's a reply at the bottom and sometimes there's not.

Why do the some of the
posts go all the way
across the page and some look like haiku?

P-D:


i am learning to use this software.


I am having a really hard time exchanging ideas with you because your questions are loaded and you seem to think you either know what people are thinking or what they are going to say.

i have already responded to this post but i can find my post so im do it again.

can u explain how my questin are loaded ?

and the only way u could come to the
conclustion i sem to know what people
are thinking or going to say is for u
to have read my mind.

i love mind reading :) :) :)




It's pretty evident that you you have strongly held beliefs and interesting ideas (Like, is it hypnosis, is hypnosis ok?) that I haven't given thought to before you raised them . . . but it would be so much easier for me to hear what you say if you would just say it: I think, I feel, My Experience, What I've heard, What I've read, What I've been told, what I saw, what happened when I stood up, when I disagreed.


i dont get this. could u explain in
more detail how i could better get
my point across ?

i think

i feel

i heard

i read

i listened

i saw are all ways for me to communicate.

On the other hand, this is the first discussion board I've been in and reading the last couple of days has helped me understand how flame wars get started.


i am already starting to love u more and more. yep, i sure am.




Regards

Quote
glenn7
darcy quoted,
exactly what landmark wanted u to do.
they want u to trust them. i find it
fascinating that by filling u with
jargon and meaninglessness u trust them, so surprises there.

why does that surprice you darcy?

i think u just misread my post glenn :)





why does what someone says you to do, that is with your mind,
scare you? is that your fear darcy?

i do not understand your question glenn :)


don't you think you can trust yourself?

i think i can trust myself.


someone says close your eyes and feel scared, it is not that hard.
so why did you not do that?

jinnendra from the moment he started
my forum was one of the filthiest mouthed
people i had ever heard. that could be
one reason. there are many many more.

u know u dont have to have just one reason for something u know or not :)



it may not have been that hard but why
was it so easy ?




darcy quoted
i think u mean that if u come away
feeling feeling better for a considerable amount of time that yes
hypnosis (and this is hypothetical)
justifyies the means. am i correct ?

justifies the means, wow!
what means darcy please tell me?


making u feel good. making u feel better
about yourself. that means.

in this instance means means means.

darcy quoted
if this was her first time to attend
a forum i dont believe they would have
paid her anything. i am talking about
people that are either employed by landmark or retake the course. a refresher, if u will.

she has done four courses with landmark, and i will tell you she never gets money,
and what is this thing with you, with people and money?

look, i am not saying that all people of
most of the people, i am saying that
some of the people in landmark forums
are people put there by landmark to help
them work the crowd. geesh, is this
integrity ?





darcy quoted,
isnt a commitment something u make
be ?


888888888888888888888888888888888

shouldnt the forum leader be
more capable than keeping commitments
that the newbiews ? shouldnt someone
who is leading a forum not make
commitments they have no intention
or no ability to keep ?


hey glenn, u forgot to answer this one.

thanks


8888888888888888888888888888888888

commitment?
i wounder what the leaders commitment is?
to just walk out at the time he wants to finish, a time set to the group to work to, a commitment that people in the froup get it and the time does not matter.
i think he would be more committed to the people in the group than the time on the wall.

now u are making up excuses for the
forum leader. many times they dont keep
their commitments while they are pounding
the word commitment into the minds
of the people

they are in effect changing the word
commitment.

commitment to landmark grads is taking
on a whole new meaning.

and u even used some jargon in a cool way, to state that the time didnt matter.

see, your way of thinking is probably quite
different from the way u thought before.
but.... your way of thinking is now pro landmark and con anything that doesnt
agree with your way of thinking.



i did a job the other day for this lady and i did not get it done by the time i said it would be done, so i stayed later and she thanked me for it, i am commited to service and customer satifaction.

again u are using excuses to not be
commitment. of landmark would never
complain, because your new way of being
is now in their favor. u can be a commitment one just about anything, but
when u give excuses for breaking commitments u because the end result
makes it ok.

see if u can do this. write down things
u think and how u relate to them and then
write down how u used to think.

compare them




what are you commited to darcy?

im commited to a lot of things. i commit
my life to God, as imperfect as i am, i hope
he accepts this.

i am commited to getting people out of
cults. its not easy, especially when mind
control techniques are so effective.

i am commited to other things i would
supposed.




darcy what is your fear?
you say you don't have fears, but i think you do.
tell me about yourself darcy.

u think i do do u :)

theres not much to say really. i have
a job and a decent boss and i spend
most of my time when im working or
sleeping on the internet .


why do you stay on here trying to change peoples minds or disprove landmark.
when no one can change your mind?

of course someone can change your mind.
that is possible. who tells u it isnt ?




you have been here for 2 years, or close to that.


are u saying i have been posting on rick
ross for two years. maybe u got me
mixed up with somebody else

you say this bit is wrong and this bit is wrong,
about what you did at landmark.
what are you trying to prove to yourself, can you not accept that you did not get it, or you won't let you get it.

oh i got it alright, its just what i got
is different from what u got. i got a book
out of em and have busy in my life
helping other people get out of landmark.
i got it.


does that make you feel like you failed?

absolutely not. i dont feel like i failed at
my forum at all. quite the contrary. removing landmarks way of thinking has
become a way of life for me in a sense.


later

Quote

Katydid,

I can only hope you find relief for your pain. There are SO many factors in "disease."

I really think the leader DOES make the forum. They are human, after all. Mine was abusive.

Hope


There are many different levels of "abuse" - physical abuse is easy to identify, verbal abuse a little less so, and psychological/emotional abuse certainly is the hardest to identify...sometimes it takes a months to years to realize that we have been phychologically and/or emotionally abused.

I suggest that the Leaders who once used very blatant techniques of verbal abuse, have know got a whole lot smarter...people will not tolerate verbal abuse the way they used to in the 60s and 70s....now the abuse is a lot more subtle, if not downright COVERT....

It took me three weeks to realize that my friend was attempting to hypnotise me, and attending three different "recruiting" sessions to "get it"...hah hah....yes, i certainly did "get it"....after the very charismatic and impeccably dressed "Leader" kept NAGGING... about the voice in my head and what it was saying...i could only shake my head and ask myself:

"How the devil does he know what the little voice in my head is saying"...nevertheless, he continued to badger the audience of new recruits. If the "little voice" was not telling me, what HE (The Leader), wanted my little voice to tell me, well then it must be wrong. so...go figure...!

I have a very LOW tolerance for abuse of any kind. The other day, after many occasions where my friend insisted on correcting what I was saying I said to her. "I am going to concede on this point. But I am telling you right now and right here that I am sick of you trying to modify my behaviour by telling me how I should say things, and I want you to stop it!"

I identified that she was trying to manipulate me, and I let her know that I knew, and that I was not going to tolerate it, because for whatever reason (perhaps reasons even beyond her control), she was slowly chipping away at my self-esteem....But, I caught on very early, and called her on it.

'shad'