Landmark Education - Questions
Posted by:
Montreal
()
Date: November 16, 2004 10:54PM
[b:4a72a5c956]Toastmasters is a legitimate organisation that helps people with the fear of public speaking - there is the link. I would say that Toastmasters is the innocent party. There just seems to be allot of Landmarkians there probably using its services as a way of recruitment.[/b:4a72a5c956]
It was "Toastmasters" that introduced "Landmark Education" to IBM France. "IBM" is on the list of companies that use "Toastmasters" services.
Why would a legitmate organisation introduce 'Landmark Education" to their customers, knowing that "Landmark Education" is not a legitimate organisation, but considered as a destructive sect or a totalitarian cult? How many Landmark graduates actually work for Toastmasters??? Why at a "Toastmasters" dinner meeting would they discuss "Landmark Education", if they have nothing to do with Landmark? Why would a legite organisation allow this?
July 15th, 2002 Dinner Meeting
Presented By: Jim Blain
Jim Blain has over 18 years experience in systems development, 10 of those years in project management and consulting roles. He has worked for several financial institutions and Blue Cross Blue Shield of Florida, integrating off-the-shelf tools like Excel, MS Access, MS Project for use as project management tools. He has provided extensive consulting services to project managers who apply BCBSF's Project Management Methodology, which is based on A Guide to the PMBOK. Jim incorporates enterprise-wide process management tools, such as Price Waterhouse Cooper's SUMMIT Ascendant, MS Project, and Business Engine to help deliver projects. He is also active in personal development training through the educational programs of Landmark Education Corporation. Courses in leadership, communication and self-expression have allowed Jim to work more effectively with both groups and individuals. Participation in seminars on commitment, accomplishment, integrity and excellence has increased his dedication to bringing out the best in himself and others, which gratefully brings Jim to us at PMI.
[pmi-nefl.org]
[b:4a72a5c956]One aspect appears that LE Grads refer to their "education" with LE on a similar level to their accademic and industry based credentials.[/b:4a72a5c956]
How can they consider it as a credential, when there is no diploma or certificate given out? Does "Toastmasters" give out a diploma or a certificate to people that take their courses?
Are these courses reconized as "Legite Education" in our government systems? Are these courses "tax deductible"? Can people get a "grant or loan" from the government to pay for these courses?
It was "Toastmasters" that introduced "Landmark Education" to IBM France. "IBM" is on the list of companies that use "Toastmasters" services.
Why would a legitmate organisation introduce 'Landmark Education" to their customers, knowing that "Landmark Education" is not a legitimate organisation, but considered as a destructive sect or a totalitarian cult? How many Landmark graduates actually work for Toastmasters??? Why at a "Toastmasters" dinner meeting would they discuss "Landmark Education", if they have nothing to do with Landmark? Why would a legite organisation allow this?
July 15th, 2002 Dinner Meeting
Presented By: Jim Blain
Jim Blain has over 18 years experience in systems development, 10 of those years in project management and consulting roles. He has worked for several financial institutions and Blue Cross Blue Shield of Florida, integrating off-the-shelf tools like Excel, MS Access, MS Project for use as project management tools. He has provided extensive consulting services to project managers who apply BCBSF's Project Management Methodology, which is based on A Guide to the PMBOK. Jim incorporates enterprise-wide process management tools, such as Price Waterhouse Cooper's SUMMIT Ascendant, MS Project, and Business Engine to help deliver projects. He is also active in personal development training through the educational programs of Landmark Education Corporation. Courses in leadership, communication and self-expression have allowed Jim to work more effectively with both groups and individuals. Participation in seminars on commitment, accomplishment, integrity and excellence has increased his dedication to bringing out the best in himself and others, which gratefully brings Jim to us at PMI.
[pmi-nefl.org]
[b:4a72a5c956]One aspect appears that LE Grads refer to their "education" with LE on a similar level to their accademic and industry based credentials.[/b:4a72a5c956]
How can they consider it as a credential, when there is no diploma or certificate given out? Does "Toastmasters" give out a diploma or a certificate to people that take their courses?
Are these courses reconized as "Legite Education" in our government systems? Are these courses "tax deductible"? Can people get a "grant or loan" from the government to pay for these courses?
Landmark Education - Questions
Posted by:
Concerned Oz
()
Date: November 17, 2004 10:07AM
Hi Montreal,
I first want to declare that I do not have nor have I ever had, any affiliations with Toastmasters.
What I am trying to say is that there is a clear distinction between an organisation promoting an organisation as policy, compared with that of its members promoting an organisation.
As an example, if I am a member of a political party, (which I am not), and I go to Toastmasters and introduce my self as such, give a speach and network accordingly, I am representing myself as a political party member and Toastmasters is not endorsing me. If Toastmasters gives a donation to my political party or enters into an agreement with my political party to provide public speaking services, then that is organisational endorsement as was the case with IBM France and Landmark Education.
In the case of IBM France, from the evidence that you have presented to this board, it appears that it was part of IBM Human Resource Policy to outsource its training to Landmark Education. What we are talking about here is company policy and business transactions endorsed at a senior management level.
In the case of Toastmasters, you have presented evidence that members of Toastmasters are also Landmarkians and that Landmarkians promote Landmark, through their Toastmaster club connections. I see no endorsement of Landmark Education by Toastmasters as an organisation.
Do you have evidence that supports your view that Toastmasters at an organisational level introduced IBM France as an organisation to Landmark Education or is it just Landmarkians who are Toastmaster members networking into IBM France?
The Dinner Meeting you are referring to is not a Toastmasters function. It is a function by an organisation called the Project Management Institute and one of the guest speakers is a Landmarkian and was introduced as such.
I recall back in the 1990's Toastmasters was joined by all kinds of Multi-level Marketing people as a way of networking. Toastmasters is a great club to increase a person's network because you get to speak in a public forum and can work into your speach your subject matter. Mingling after events also provides this opportunity to network. This can be used for good or for bad.
The promotion of Landmark is by [u:7d7e498680]members[/u:7d7e498680] of Toastmasters at the coal-face, not Toastmasters as an [u:7d7e498680]organisation[/u:7d7e498680] to Landmark, as is the case with IBM.
What you have presented to this board is an eye-opener as to how Landmarkians can network through "white-collar" clubs and organisations to increase "enrollment into Landmark.
Landmarkians believe that Landmark provides education that transforms their life. As such, they consider it at least on a par with University. This is how they think but is unrepresentative of societal values which recognises credentials from approved training orgainisations such as Universtities and colleges.
Society does not value the "graduate" status granted by Landmark Education and it never will. It does not hold any weight.
Oz
I first want to declare that I do not have nor have I ever had, any affiliations with Toastmasters.
What I am trying to say is that there is a clear distinction between an organisation promoting an organisation as policy, compared with that of its members promoting an organisation.
As an example, if I am a member of a political party, (which I am not), and I go to Toastmasters and introduce my self as such, give a speach and network accordingly, I am representing myself as a political party member and Toastmasters is not endorsing me. If Toastmasters gives a donation to my political party or enters into an agreement with my political party to provide public speaking services, then that is organisational endorsement as was the case with IBM France and Landmark Education.
In the case of IBM France, from the evidence that you have presented to this board, it appears that it was part of IBM Human Resource Policy to outsource its training to Landmark Education. What we are talking about here is company policy and business transactions endorsed at a senior management level.
In the case of Toastmasters, you have presented evidence that members of Toastmasters are also Landmarkians and that Landmarkians promote Landmark, through their Toastmaster club connections. I see no endorsement of Landmark Education by Toastmasters as an organisation.
Do you have evidence that supports your view that Toastmasters at an organisational level introduced IBM France as an organisation to Landmark Education or is it just Landmarkians who are Toastmaster members networking into IBM France?
The Dinner Meeting you are referring to is not a Toastmasters function. It is a function by an organisation called the Project Management Institute and one of the guest speakers is a Landmarkian and was introduced as such.
I recall back in the 1990's Toastmasters was joined by all kinds of Multi-level Marketing people as a way of networking. Toastmasters is a great club to increase a person's network because you get to speak in a public forum and can work into your speach your subject matter. Mingling after events also provides this opportunity to network. This can be used for good or for bad.
The promotion of Landmark is by [u:7d7e498680]members[/u:7d7e498680] of Toastmasters at the coal-face, not Toastmasters as an [u:7d7e498680]organisation[/u:7d7e498680] to Landmark, as is the case with IBM.
What you have presented to this board is an eye-opener as to how Landmarkians can network through "white-collar" clubs and organisations to increase "enrollment into Landmark.
Landmarkians believe that Landmark provides education that transforms their life. As such, they consider it at least on a par with University. This is how they think but is unrepresentative of societal values which recognises credentials from approved training orgainisations such as Universtities and colleges.
Society does not value the "graduate" status granted by Landmark Education and it never will. It does not hold any weight.
Oz
Landmark Education - Questions
Posted by:
Montreal
()
Date: November 17, 2004 12:26PM
[b:173ef85a63] The Dinner Meeting you are referring to is not a Toastmasters function. It is a function by an organisation called the Project Management Institute and one of the guest speakers is a Landmarkian and was introduced as such.[/b:173ef85a63]
That link came up when I typed out both Toastmasters and Landmark on the same Yahoo search bar. Now, if you type out Project Management Institute and Toastmasters on the same search bar, lots of links come up with the two together. I have read a few and noticed, that members of both do both, or belong to both, or have been in both, exactly the same as the Landmark/Toastmasters example I had given.
Two examples of the many available on the net.
PMI-NEFL Dinner Meeting Details
... member of the Project Management Institute and the National Speakers ... Benson will discuss how Toastmasters Club can help the audience ...
www.pmi-nefl.org/events/details.asp
eSymbiosys - Management
... Project Management Professional (PMP), Project Management Institute ... 1st Rank) 1988. Member of Toastmasters International. Go to Top ...
www.esymbiosys.com/manage.html
That link came up when I typed out both Toastmasters and Landmark on the same Yahoo search bar. Now, if you type out Project Management Institute and Toastmasters on the same search bar, lots of links come up with the two together. I have read a few and noticed, that members of both do both, or belong to both, or have been in both, exactly the same as the Landmark/Toastmasters example I had given.
Two examples of the many available on the net.
PMI-NEFL Dinner Meeting Details
... member of the Project Management Institute and the National Speakers ... Benson will discuss how Toastmasters Club can help the audience ...
www.pmi-nefl.org/events/details.asp
eSymbiosys - Management
... Project Management Professional (PMP), Project Management Institute ... 1st Rank) 1988. Member of Toastmasters International. Go to Top ...
www.esymbiosys.com/manage.html
Landmark Education - Questions
Posted by:
SarahL
()
Date: November 20, 2004 11:15AM
Quote
What I am trying to say is that there is a clear distinction between an organisation promoting an organisation as policy, compared with that of its members promoting an organisation.
I was pretty sure that Oz was right on this in regards to Landmark and Toastmasters, checked out Toastmasters website but didn't find a mission statement that would clarify, so emailed them and asked. Got this in response (bold emphasis is mine) :
[i:0d109523c4]Toastmasters International's sole purpose is to help its members develop their communication and leadership skills. [b:0d109523c4]We are not affiliated with any other organization, and our governing documents prohibit us from serving as an advocate for any other cause or group.[/b:0d109523c4]
Because we have clubs in more than 75 countries, our membership is diverse politically and culturally. While our members often use the skills they learn in Toastmasters to advocate their own beliefs and causes, this does not mean our organization endorses these beliefs and causes.
Sincerely,
Debbie Horn
Manager, Education and Club Operations
Toastmasters International [/i:0d109523c4]
Sarah
Landmark Education - Questions
Posted by:
Montreal
()
Date: November 23, 2004 11:15PM
Quote
SarahLQuote
What I am trying to say is that there is a clear distinction between an organisation promoting an organisation as policy, compared with that of its members promoting an organisation.
I was pretty sure that Oz was right on this in regards to Landmark and Toastmasters, checked out Toastmasters website but didn't find a mission statement that would clarify, so emailed them and asked. Got this in response (bold emphasis is mine) :
[i:991c237074]Toastmasters International's sole purpose is to help its members develop their communication and leadership skills. [b:991c237074]We are not affiliated with any other organization, and our governing documents prohibit us from serving as an advocate for any other cause or group.[/b:991c237074]
Because we have clubs in more than 75 countries, our membership is diverse politically and culturally. While our members often use the skills they learn in Toastmasters to advocate their own beliefs and causes, this does not mean our organization endorses these beliefs and causes.
Sincerely,
Debbie Horn
Manager, Education and Club Operations
Toastmasters International [/i:991c237074]
Sarah
Hello Sarah,
I never agreed or disagreed with what Oz wrote, I was just wondering what the connection was, seeing that there are so many links, showing people using simultaneously the services of Landmark Education & Toastmasters and/or PMI & Toastmasters.
Landmark Education - Questions
Posted by:
SarahL
()
Date: November 24, 2004 12:34AM
Quote
Hello Sarah,
I never agreed or disagreed with what Oz wrote, I was just wondering what the connection was, seeing that there are so many links, showing people using simultaneously the services of Landmark Education & Toastmasters and/or PMI & Toastmasters.
Hello Madison,
I just was pleased that Toastmasters responded so clearly, I did not mean to aim my post at any of us in particular, more was looking at the issue. :)
Lately I've been interested in finding out the mission statements and ethics policies of various groups, learning more how to research them, Toastmasters an example of what I've been mulling over.
SL
Landmark Education - Questions
Posted by:
Montreal
()
Date: December 03, 2004 01:34AM
- Do they get flashbacks and/or memories of their past? What goes through their minds in that instant? What do they feel? What do they see?
- Can they associate these flashbacks and memories to the event of when it happened, how it happened, why it happened, where it happened, with who it happened?
- Can they associate these flashbacks and memories to the event of when it happened, how it happened, why it happened, where it happened, with who it happened?
Landmark Education - Questions
Posted by:
sonnie_dee
()
Date: December 06, 2004 01:21PM
Quote
Do they get flashbacks and/or memories of their past? What goes through their minds in that instant? What do they feel? What do they see?
- Can they associate these flashbacks and memories to the event of when it happened, how it happened, why it happened, where it happened, with who it happened?
What are you referring to here? Are you talking about their participation in Landmark or prior to or after Landmark or any LGAT?
Landmark Education - Questions
Posted by:
Montreal
()
Date: December 06, 2004 02:42PM
Quote
sonnie_deeQuote
Do they get flashbacks and/or memories of their past? What goes through their minds in that instant? What do they feel? What do they see?
- Can they associate these flashbacks and memories to the event of when it happened, how it happened, why it happened, where it happened, with who it happened?
What are you referring to here? Are you talking about their participation in Landmark or prior to or after Landmark or any LGAT?
During Landmark participation,,,, I understand that the past has to be put in the past, for it becomes a racket or it's unauthentic. So I was wondering, if the past is put in the past,,, then are there any flashbacks coming from the past.
for example:
if you hear a song, can that song still remind you of a person
if you walk into a restaurant or a place that you have been with friends, can you remember that event, what happened, etc,
if you had received a gift from someone, can you put an association to that gift.
if you look at a picture of you and someone else from the past, what do you see?
etc,,,,
Landmark Education - Questions
Posted by:
Concerned Oz
()
Date: December 06, 2004 03:08PM
Hi Sonnie_dee - if I may add something to Montreal's questions, we both have lost loved ones to Landmark as have others on this board.
What we have found remarkable is how in almost all cases the Landmark participant is able to make a clean break unemotionally from what was formally a relationship without problems. If the break does not occur in the Forum, it seems to occur after the Advanced Course exercise - "My life story".
=====
I am aware that you are on your own journey now, trying to come to terms with things. If our questions or what we write trigger you adversely, please let us know.
Also, if there is anything we can do in the way of explaining the hows and whys and what's next, please let the board know. There are a number of people here who have many years of experience and reflection in the ways of Landmark.
Oz
What we have found remarkable is how in almost all cases the Landmark participant is able to make a clean break unemotionally from what was formally a relationship without problems. If the break does not occur in the Forum, it seems to occur after the Advanced Course exercise - "My life story".
=====
I am aware that you are on your own journey now, trying to come to terms with things. If our questions or what we write trigger you adversely, please let us know.
Also, if there is anything we can do in the way of explaining the hows and whys and what's next, please let the board know. There are a number of people here who have many years of experience and reflection in the ways of Landmark.
Oz
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.