Reading in another thread about the Sterling group, it occurred to me that in the film Magnolia, Tom Cruise plays a character very like Justin Sterling. And I thought, to be a character in a fairly mainstream film, it suggests that this type of person is one that the public is familiar with, at least in concept. And then it occurred to me that I grew up with the concept of LGATs, even though I didn't have a specific term for them. I knew about EST, and "encounter groups" and (does TM count? If so, then I have to amend my previous statement that my parents were never involved in LGATs, because my mother was involved with TM). But since I moved to the UK 15 years ago, I never hear about such groups -- the first time was this friend who's become involved with Landmark. Oh, and I've heard of people being approached by Scientologists in London, but that's more of a cult than a LGAT.

So, are LGATs very common in the US? Would your average person be aware of their existence? If you mentioned Landmark or Justin Sterling or whatever group to the average person on the street, would they have an idea what it was about?

And it also brings up a chicken and egg question for me... I've often felt that Americans tend to be more neurotic than Europeans. I don't mean that to be insulting to my own countrymen, it's just an observation. I felt that I was more neurotic when I lived in the US, and over the years since I moved away I've calmed down a lot. Whenever I go back to the US, it amazes me the things that people obsess over and get worked up about, how everything is analysed to the nth degree but the stress never seems to get resolved. So my chicken and egg question is: Is the tendency to neuroticism that I observe in the US a product of the prevalence of LGATs, or do LGATs thrive in the US because the population has a greater tendency to neurosis and so is ripe to be sucked into an organisation that seems to offer "answers"? Or is it just that Americans have more disposable income to throw away on such things?

The belief that we can re-invent ourselves, triumph over any and all circumstances with little regard for limitations, is very American.

Americans have been hungry for self improvement since at least the early to mid-19th century, and there were major social movements for religious revival that swept large areas in the 18th century.

Just have a look at the original Pilgrims: they were a group of English Puritans who decided to take the very dangerous step of moving their commune to the Colonies--they'd left England, tried to live in Calvinist Holland, and decided even that sober environment presented too many temptations to the youngsters.

Whether someone is likely to be familiar with a certain group or LGAT will depend a lot on where they live and whom they socialize with.

Quote
Savernake
Reading in another thread about the Sterling group, it occurred to me that in the film Magnolia, Tom Cruise plays a character very like Justin Sterling. And I thought, to be a character in a fairly mainstream film, it suggests that this type of person is one that the public is familiar with, at least in concept. And then it occurred to me that I grew up with the concept of LGATs, even though I didn't have a specific term for them. I knew about EST, and "encounter groups" and (does TM count? If so, then I have to amend my previous statement that my parents were never involved in LGATs, because my mother was involved with TM). But since I moved to the UK 15 years ago, I never hear about such groups -- the first time was this friend who's become involved with Landmark. Oh, and I've heard of people being approached by Scientologists in London, but that's more of a cult than a LGAT.

So, are LGATs very common in the US? Would your average person be aware of their existence? If you mentioned Landmark or Justin Sterling or whatever group to the average person on the street, would they have an idea what it was about?

And it also brings up a chicken and egg question for me... I've often felt that Americans tend to be more neurotic than Europeans. I don't mean that to be insulting to my own countrymen, it's just an observation. I felt that I was more neurotic when I lived in the US, and over the years since I moved away I've calmed down a lot. Whenever I go back to the US, it amazes me the things that people obsess over and get worked up about, how everything is analysed to the nth degree but the stress never seems to get resolved. So my chicken and egg question is: Is the tendency to neuroticism that I observe in the US a product of the prevalence of LGATs, or do LGATs thrive in the US because the population has a greater tendency to neurosis and so is ripe to be sucked into an organisation that seems to offer "answers"? Or is it just that Americans have more disposable income to throw away on such things?

Interesting observations, Savernake. And fun to speculate about, from a sociological standpoint. Having lived in both the US and the UK myself, I tend to agree with you about the neuroticism, though the British seemed to smoke and drink an awfully lot more than Americans do, at least here in California. They were also, on the whole, leaps and bounds more intelligent and informed than the people I knew in the US. And funnier. Which is why it surprises me that Landmark, and groups like Landmark, are having any success at all in Britain. I would have thought the British would have seen right through this nonsense. (Funnily enough, L. Ron Hubbard was also able to set up shop there, after he fled the US in disgrace.)

I think, early on, the "manipulators," that is ad-men, PR flacks, salesmen, and policial operatives learned that the very best way to move "product" was to frighten people - scare the sh*t out of them, really. Of course, there was plenty of evidence, considering how religions have used fear tactics for thousands of years and continue, unimpeded, though all the tricks have been revealed and catalogued. Capitalism, Commercialism, and Consumerism have profitted handsomely from the practices and the fear tactics have subsumed into the culture. An interesting take on this, and if you haven't read it, it's a terrific book, was Jessica Mitford's expose, "The American Way of Death," by which she almost single-handedly took down the American funeral industry. What seemed normal, to most of us in the US, appeared an outrageous abuse and exploitation of people at a most vulnerable point, to her, an outsider. She infiltrated the business and was able to find the communications and extract the secrets that those in the industry had zealously protected from public view. It's a shocker, not so much for the tactics, but the audacity those in the industry displayed in their unbounded greed and sense of entitlement. Their success was, no doubt, taken into account by many who saw the potential in manipulating public perception, and I think we've taken the practices to a whole new level, not having the tradition or the history of a more egalitarian, inter-dependent, or socially responsible culture.

But back to LGATs; yes, I think they put a decidedly American spin on the ever-present yearning of people to improve their lives. And, thanks to their courting of celebrities, most people are at least marginally aware of the "self-improvement cults" and their similarities to groups like scientology.

Funny aside; when the trailers of the movie, "Magnolia," were broadcast on late-night television here in California, many people thought they were "infomercials" and that Tom Cruise had struck out on his own; taken what he knew from scientology and started his own cult, similar to the one that I see advertised, "Speed Seduction," or some such nonsense.




Ellen

I think all the old world nations telling us how much we suck gets to us. I've been to Europe and can say we really are not all that different. But from America's inception, this land was seen as nothing more than resources for the European countries. God forbid if we ever produce anything of quality as far as they are concerned, and when we do it is just knocked down anyway. It is very much the abusive parent /angry-but-trying-to-please child relationship between most of the world and America.

I get a kick out of people who think recent events have caused the world to hate us. Guess they just didn't pay attention in history.

I think it depends on how much money is in the area as to whether they will be familiar with LGATs. More money equals more contact. LGATs just don't like poor people, unless they have rich friends.

Just on a side note: The most neurotic, hyper, insecure "normal" person I ever met was British. [Normal meaning [b:ead605c3aa]not[/b:ead605c3aa] the homeless, crazy, certainly neurotic person in Herald Square yelling that all white @#$$^&%$@ needed to die.]

I think many Americans believe in the "American Dream": that one can come from nothing and break out of one's social class and become a huge success if only one knows the "secret." Oprah, Bill Gates and many Hollywood stars come to mind as examples of the so-called "American Dream." I think many of the Human Potential hucksters feed off that American quest for the "secret to success." Of course, as Americans, we tend to ignore the rest of the world (in our American arrogance), so maybe it takes us a bit longer to catch on to things.

As a teenager, I'd heard of est, but really had no idea what it was. I'd never heard of Landmark until my friend approached me about it. From what he told me at first, it sounded like a real estate seminar! I thought it was just another of those "invest in real estate with no money down" scams. It wsa only after months of him talking on and on about it that I figured I'd better check it out, because it seemed to have a strange hold on him.

It could be just me, but I don't think most people here in NY have as much familiarity with cults as Californians. We're busy scurrying along in the crowds, always late, always rushing to get somewhere, and we barely glance at the Krishnas in the park. Of course, now that I'm more aware of these groups, it seems I see Jews for Jesus, Landmarkers, Scientologists, Kabbalists etc. etc. all over the place. Sort of like when you buy a new car and it seems like everyone else on the road owns the same one.

Savernake, the link below has a history of LGATs. I'm not sure of its accuracy, but if it's wrong, I'm sure the moderators will correct me. I found it quite interesting.

[perso.wanadoo.fr]


I'm not sure what TM is, but from the behavior you described in your other posts, I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was a LGAT or cult.

I'm sure you hate New Women, but the fact your mother would blatantly follow their advice points to previous cult/LGAT involvement or an abusive relationship (which is what cults/LGATs are). Any reasonable person reading the articles would decide if such advice made sense for them or not. Very few would just follow it without thought to the consequences their actions would bring unless their critical thinking skills had been severed.

Is the diagnosis of codependency as prevalent in the UK as it is in the US? If so, then LGATs have prime feeding grounds for everyone (literally - everyone) needing to fix themselves.

Quote
elena
Which is why it surprises me that Landmark, and groups like Landmark, are having any success at all in Britain.

What surprised me even more is that it should be this person who fell for it. He's such a bullish, in-your-face kind of person (he's okay in small doses, but I do get weary if I spend too much tiem with him) -- he's the sort of person who, the only way to live your life is the way he's doing it, the only music/books/art to listen to/read/appreciate are the ones that he likes, the only way to cook your food is the way he does. And he's an entrepreneur -- created his own business from nothing, sold it for a few million and now makes a fortune as a consultant.

But maybe that's why he's fallen for it so well -- after being "broken down", maybe he could see what an arrogant twit he could be sometimes and so took a pendulum swing in the opposite direction (mind you, he seems to be just as dogmatic about Landmark as he's ever been about every other passion he's had).

[b:b5591b5ce5]Alexis: [/b:b5591b5ce5]TM is Trancendental Meditation. [www.tm.org]
There was a big group of housewives who all used to get together to meditate once a week, and sometimes they used to go for classes.

And my previous comments were not meant to slag off Americans (I [i:b5591b5ce5]am [/i:b5591b5ce5]American for heavens sake!)- Americans have a lot of good points over Europeans, they have a lot more drive and energy, they are good at seeing how to make things work, and they generally see the positive in a situation. But, having lived in the US for 22 years and in the UK for 15, it does appear to me that Americans tend to be more neurotic. I don't mean that to be insulting, as I include myself amongst those neurotic Americans :) It's not a critique, it's just an observation.

[b:b5591b5ce5]Hope:[/b:b5591b5ce5] This is just the thing -- there are fewer diagnoses of [i:b5591b5ce5]anything[/i:b5591b5ce5] in the UK as far as I can see. It's not that people don't get depressed (and get treatment for it), or don't have ADD or SAD or have "abandonment issues" or whatever -- it just seems that the mental health industry isn't so all-pervasive. And people do seem to me to be better balanced, overall. I wouldn't say "happier" exactly -- but "content" probably describes it (they are different things, if you think about it). Less likely to get all manic and fired up one day and down in the dumps and despairing the next. More even-keeled. But maybe that's what gives Americans their drive and determination -- a lack of contentment, the need to strive for more.

Of course, times change. When I first came to the UK, you almost never saw an obese person -- friends and family who came over to visit me uniformly used to say "there aren't any big people here!". Now it's not so uncommon. I think in part it's because the diet industry has started to infiltrate -- get people obsessing about their weight, and suddenly it becomes a huge issue that they can't control themselves (which is exactly what the dieting industry would like us to believe). ... but that's just a theory. The fact that people are using cars more (ie getting less exercise), and that food has got better might have something to do with it as well :)

Anyway no, I have never heard of anyone in the UK being diagnosed as "co-dependent". I'm sure there are people who are co-dependent, but you don't tend to hear the labels so much. I can't say that I am aware of anyone is a "co-dependent" relationship... I recall one guy some years ago whose girlfriend used to get really upset if he ever did anything without her -- even just for a few drinks after work. But that seemed to be a one-way dependency, as he didn't have any problem with either of them doing their own thing. I think they broke up eventually. It does seem to me that people's social and family networks are better established here, so perhaps the need to cling to a single other individual is not so great?

Wow, I think I've just had a revelation -- dangerous stuff :)

Another advantage that Americans have over Europeans is that they are masters of presentation, of the hard and soft sell. Elena mentioned the link between fear and sales -- but another way of looking at it is that advertisers want us to be discontent with our lives. If we're content with our old car, why would we buy a new one? If we're happy with our weight, why buy diet aids or weight watchers classes? If we're content with life, why pay for Landmark? (the Landmark website even basically says, paraphrasing, "Why live an ordinary life when you can have an extraordinary one?", as if ordinary by definition is somehow lacking).

What I may be seeing is just that Europeans haven't fully woken up to the advertising potential of discontent. I remember when I first came to the UK, ads were very different -- they used to be funny. People used to say that they enjoyed the adverts as much as the programmes they were watching or listening to. The intention seemed to be to amuse in order to make the product stick in your head, rather than to make you feel that you were lacking something that could only be fulfilled by the product. Not as clever a marketing strategy. The first time an American-style ad came out (for a hair product, of the "Are you tired of having dull lifeless hair?" variety), it jarred. But now that type of ad is becoming increasingly common. I wonder if that relative contentment that I have observed over the years will begin to erode? And if we'll start seeing more things like Landmark coming in to fill the void?

In the US, back in the 1960s and 1970s, advertising emphasized the quality of a product. And a lot of the advertising on TV was humorous. Those were the commercials which became famous and quotable.

Remember some of the more famous ones?

'Avoid the heartbreak of psoriasis?' (Head and Shoulders shampoo)

'Mikey likes it' (Life cereal)

'I can't believe I ate the whooole thing' (Alka Selzer?)

'Contac [i:cd04c4d2c7]time-release [/i:cd04c4d2c7]capsules'

And I recall a very old ad for deoderant foot pads. This guy is sitting with his family. He takes off his shoes and the family and even the dog all keel over.

But...here's the thing: we remember these ads. They made us laugh.

How well do we remember the ads that trigger our depression and discontent?

Its always fiendishly hard to prove that two associated events are causally connected, but someone should try and identify when the advertisers really mastered 'the massaging of discontent' and whether this is linked to a spike in diagnoses for depression and prescriptions for anti-depressant medication.

If we can identify exactly when these discontent ads were targeted at specific age groups of children and adolesents, we can then see if this was tied to a corresponding surge in diagnoses for depression in those same age groups.

Next, we can study how prevalent these advertising campaigns are in various parts of Europe and the UK, note which age groups were targeted and whether rates of diagnosis for depression also go up.