Hello Dragon Fly I am just curious to as what is the success rate of the program in your Village?

Angus

Hello Angus,

My first reaction is to say success rate of the program for whom?

I'd say, well for Thelma Box success rate seems to be still pretty good, as band members are still being sent. People are still recruiting. Though now the Chief and Council keep it quiet.

Success rate for band members, I don’t see any long term success for anyone.

A married couple went through the couples program, later split up and the guy was involved in a gas station robbery. His so called involvement was “he was passed out drunk and asleep in the back of the pick-up while his buddy robbed the store.

One individual that was really “pulled in” rallied so hard for “Choices” and fundraised for many to go through the program recently attempted suicide. I really feel sorry for her because she really wants to “help” others.

Hmm.. many of our misfits have been sent there because our leadership thinks people can be “fixed” in 5 days.

There is one young man that the local “Choices” advocates just raised money for. They are sending him soon. He has been charged for physical assault. He was charged for sexual assault. He is an alcoholic and a drug user. He has been in and out of court the past couple of years. I still can’t understand why he has never been sent to do some jail time yet.

When I heard they were sending him to “Choices” some devilish part of me took over and I smiled and felt pretty good, and I said “now HE deserves it!”

:twisted:

I was looking for more numbers rather than individual stories. How many Band members have been through and over all how successful is the program in the community. I guess I would base the success as at least 10% change for the better? Choices has come to my community, i've never gone through Choices. Its made a change for the better in my community. I guess we can all look at the unsuccessful people and judge them. I say if it works for them let it work for them, but it doesn't have to work for us. We are only in control of our own lives. I've never thought about it being a cult before, don't drink the juice! HAhahaha.

Thanks

Angus

Angus,

Sorry can’t give you the numbers.
But I can tell you this; over all….the “program” is a failure in the community.

Individually- the people that have gone through the program initially feel as though they are changed people. Keys words here “they feel”. They are giddy and happy and all excited about how “they feel”. A kind of high. And over time this feeling wears off, and in order to experience it again they must go back to the next level of the program, and so on, and so on. And during this time they are trying to get other people to go and experience this “high”.

If you honestly step back and look at what is going on, it looks like the scenario of a drug addict, his dealer, and the dealer convincing the addict to get more business.

“Here after you take this, it will make you feel really good, don’t ask if it’s good for you, or bad for you, or if it could be dangerous, trust me, put your faith in me, I want nothing in return but money, and for you to bring others to me”.

The affect on the community as a whole, is in fact not for the better, but for the worse. I say this because once your community leaders get “hooked” their priorities change. And trust me they will.

My band (and other neighboring bands) used band money to send the individuals to Choices.
The money in our case was pulled from education funds. Our education dollars were being used. This money is for education! Its there strictly for post secondary education, living allowances, courses, programs, etc. And in order for us to access this money, it must be for a credited post secondary program. Workshops and seminars are approved, but they have to meet specific criteria. They must be job or work related.

Choices is in no way job or work related. And most definitely is not post secondary education.
But our funds were used because our chief and council believed they had found something so wonderful, and blindly used our money, without the bands knowledge.

This in turn affected people in the community that wanted to access funding for legitimate education because it depleted the funds.

Our band also sent band employees and paid their wages for all the work days they missed.
They paid people to drive them down to the coast and back again, paid for all the fuel and paid for all the meals while down there.

So aside from the initial cost of the Choices program, as much was probably spent in wages and travel.

The program put up barriers for band employees. The ones that went were trying to make their co-workers go and when people flat out said no, they were treated as “losers”. And some Choices advocates went so far as to tell their co-workers as much.
Employees complained about the Choices people and all employees were told not to talk about Choices at work.

Can all this be for the better?

All in all, money was, and is, being pulled from different areas. Money being wasted.
Money that could have been used for things to help the community in the long run, not a five day quickie.

Example- Computers, scanners, printers, software, books etc could have been purchased for our youth and for our students, both young and old. That would have benefited the community as a whole, not for 5 days but for years to come.

Its hard not to get angry and judge people. Its hard not to become cynical, which I find myself doing.

This month a couple of community members went to Choices that I know of. These people are all badly addicted to cocaine... crack pipe. I have watched as these young men went from happy go-lucky young teens, to highly addicted drug users that stay at home, indoors and look like crap now.

These young men are messed up. I don’t know who convinced them to go. Or how they were convinced to go. I strongly suspect their source of income was used as the tool to get them to go. As in their Assistance withheld. Choices is not a drug rehab program! These young men need real help from real drug programs. But our leadership is in so deep they don’t see this. So how, can that benefit our community as a whole?

I shake my head and wonder, what will become of these young men in the next 6 months or year for that matter. Choices will leave its mark on them. Of that we can be sure. They will return all pumped with the familiar Choices “high”. What will become of them when it wears off and they crash? Choices does not care, they did their 5 days and have their money.

Time will tell.

So in the long run, my community is worse off for having experienced Choices.

Dragonfly

Dragon Fly,
First and for most, I want to say you have a tremendous care and passion for your community. I see you have a close connection with your band office and are informed as to where the funds are coming from, for the Choices program. Money coming from the education funds people getting paid while at Choices etc. Having not to talk about Choices at work I believe it was an ethical decision to make for all employees to do so. It was for the better, whom ever the supervisor was, made the right decision not to talk about Choices during business hours. As any supervisor would ask their employees to respect others opinions.

I can not put a value to the program, because people in my community are still receiving value of Choices. If I were to compare it to buying new computers, scanners, printers, software and books. I would see the Choices value out lasting the Computers. Because I see dads and moms coming home to their children and creating a better home. I see the value to be endless as the children will have a more and loving parents to come home to and pass it on to their children. However I am not in your community and can’t speak for you. Choices people do tell me that they acknowledge that Choices is not a rehab or treatment centre. After coming home numerous of band members have moved on to treatment for their addictions. And committed to 90 days to do AA. I am saddened that someone would watch someone go from happy go lucky to “highly addicted drug user. I hope someone did lend a helping hand.

I would not want to jump to conclusions as to ‘withholding their monthly income’. Without all the information. Because as we all know that is how rumours start on the rez. I have a close cousin that went through a while back and Choices did not leave them to dry. They stayed in contact with them steady for four months and she still receives phone calls from her TA ( I think its called). Which has led my cousin to do more successful things.

I respect you concern for you community. Things are to be questioned and not just led by without being questioned. It sounds to me your concern is more with, how your band spends the funding. I am unsure if you approached you band on this issue, I hope you did. Because spending all this energy on telling people not in your community about how bad Choices is. Rather than watching out for the ones you love in your community and making a difference. What can you do with chief and council anyway as many people have the same problem. Maybe we should be posting on them!!! Don’t drink the coffee at the band office!!! Hahaha.

Angus

Hi all glad to join

I would just like to say I am not for “choices’ it has personally affected my family also in extremely negative way .It is quite obvious that they use manipulation, for one they tell you it’s called ‘choices” and then you don’t get any, you don’t even choose how your going to get through it all, they choose everything and TA’s are just people who have been through the program. Pretty smart we make you pay, then we make you work, then we make you keep secrets, then we make you manipulate your family and friends, we make you sell your car or what ever you possess to pay for someone else to go. But you can’t tell them what it’s all about they have to “experience it for themselves”.
So where are the choices? Sure they want you to see you have different choices in life but they don’t give you any. And when your broken and they’ strip you of your dignity, then they love you.
Verbal abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse, alpha state hypnosis manipulation,
Force, bulling, and intimidation it’s not ok.
Just because you pay for something and a million other people pay for the same thing doesn’t mean its right. It means these people are great salesmen. They are professionals they know how to convince you it’s your idea “buy it you’ll love it tell your friends but they have to come drive one themselves to really experience it”.
Why do you think they promote Phil McGraw and why do you think Thelma’s yelling all over how he stole her program and why do you think Phil never mentions Thelma? But his name is on her website and even his dad’s name is there too.
Why would you belittle someone to the newspapers and then use them to promote your business? These questions I asked myself, so I phoned “pathways” and they promoted Thelma Box so who’s they real group leader?
The sad thing about it is, that we native people are being exploited because there’s a lot of money involved, who better to target than people who can go and their band will pay.
Thelma Box is quite a crafty old gal isn’t she? A good old tent revival; yeah give that to us natives. Kind of reminds me of the Residential schools “convert the Indians they don’t know any better anyway” it’s what they did to our parents and now we have good old Thelma to lead us to the Promised Land.
A little word of advice Angus go to your local library and borrow a book called
The Emperors New Clothes. Maybe you guys in your community have not read that one yet it sounds to me like Dragonfly has.
Another thing when you are a professional at manipulating your clientele you become egocentric or you are suffering from a Narcissistic Personality Disorder either way you are dealing with a person who could be dangerous to you, even if it is just in a psychological manner which can ruin your life, for a long time to come and there is no value in that.

Here’s a poem I found on the internet that’s quite interesting it makes me think of all my people who are charging forward with Thelma Box.


Upon the Northern coast of Norway,
Where grassland meets the polar ice,
Live chubby, furry creatures,
Two times the size of common mice.

In equally sized little burrows,
The lemmings ever play and mate.
They love all lemmings just the same
And wish to share each other’s fate.

All selfishness each lemming shuns,
And, when his brothers pour onto the grass,
For sake of lemming kind he runs
To blend into the formless mass.

Where lemmings go, he gives no care.
His tribe’s “collective mind” decides.
”The shore! The cliff!” shouts the stampede
And plummets off its jagged sides.

Within the icy seas off Norway,
Through which but seals and fish can tread,
Lie thousands of furry lemmings,
In unity, in brotherhood - and dead.

This has become interesting. I believe if you truly to care about the people in your life. You would be encouraging them to move forward. I was reading an article about crabs. If you put one King Crab in a bucket it will be able to get out. But, if you put two Crabs in a bucket they will keep each other in, not letting the other get out. I tend to see this in communities which is really sad. As for Thelma, I saw her on E! True Hollywood story, when they were doing a show on Dr.Phil and she had nothing bad to say about him. As the other people did on the show, she said alot of kind things about him and his wife. But, I am sure that is non of our business. My cousin was told at the beginning of the Choices, Thelma tells the group “by the end of the program, if they do not receive any value from the program. They can ask for their money back, no questions asked”. There are some people in my community that has done so, and did a different program afterwards. He just said it didn’t work for him, and he wanted to try something different, so he did. The Narcissistic Personality Disorder, wow that is a huge leap to go to. If they are professionals they are getting under paid big time. Because I am sure some other company would have picked them up. Or maybe a chief would, so the Chief could get more votes. I say that jokingly because its, way out in left field and to big of a judgement.

Angus

Here’s something interesting Angus take a look at these sites.

[forum.lowcarber.org]
[www.talkaboutsupport.com]
[groups.google.ca]
[groups.google.ca]

Do any of these links of yours have any credit? Published maybe? I am sure; anyone on the internet can set up an account under anyones name. I hold no credit to these links. The only credited comments I see is the E! True Hollywood Story, The Making of Dr. Phil and A&E Biography. Only because I know [i:8f4f509e77]for sure[/i:8f4f509e77] this is Thelma Box speaking. People who do reasearch know that internet site's are not always dependable or correct!

Excerpt from article in the Dallas Observer-
- Thelma Box and McGraw were partners in a seminar business called Pathways. Box claims McGraw "sold her down the river" when he sold his interest in the business behind her back.

[www.dallasobserver.com]


Excerpt from Choices Seminars Website, Founder Thelma Box-
- In 1983 Thelma, Dr. Phil (from the Oprah Winfrey Show) McGraw and Dr. Joe McGraw designed a seminar that asked the question “If better is possible, is good good enough?” Together they joined their visions to bring their life lessons to a world in search of “better”. As time progressed Thelma became the sole owner and operator of what is now the Choices Personal Growth Seminar.

[www.choicesintl.com]




Info from the article in the Dallas Observer-

1. Eldon Box is Thelma Box ‘s son. Had history in the oilfield trucking business.
He is now running an offshoot seminar from Choices Seminars called Adventures Seminars
(His site)- [www.adventureseminars.com]


2. Thelma Box was an insurance and real estate agent from Graham, Texas. Then started Pathways with Phil McGraw. She says she designed most of the processes and games.



Credentials, it’s all about credentials, you get what you pay for.