Pwl,

Are you wanting to discuss Landmark / EST or world politics? The last time I checked this forum was about LGAT's not how bad Bush or Cheney is.

I'm more than happy to debate politics, but not here. I don't necessarily agree with everything that has gone on in Iraq. But, ask yourself this. Was it right for Saddam to gas the Kurds? Was it right for Sadams son to rape women then cut off their heads and leave their heads on the fences outside their families home? From what I recall in the Landmark Advanced Communications Course, those poor people should have just accepted what happened to them and stayed in their place!

I can say this though, we have one thing in common we both consider a controverisal figure a criminal....You consider Bush a Criminal....I consider Werner a Criminal. To me Werner is much worse than Bush. Werner created Landmark which is out for total world domination.

rrmoderator: "Werner's work"? Are you serious? Erhard (aka Jack Rosenberg) didn't come up with anything original. He relied heavily upon Heidegger and Scientology for his idiosyncratic composite philosophy. Didn't you know that? Either you have not done any meaningful research about est and Erhard or you have chosen to ignore the well-documented facts."

Yes, Werner's work. He did do work of his own after all. I know that he based some of his work upon Heidegger among many others. I don't think that any of his short time attending Scientology really contributed to EST or The Forum, in fact it's likely the opposite happened by making sure that nasty strain wasn't present.


rrmoderator: "Erhard was seen by some as a "cult leader" and others as a "con man." He became rich running his courses, which hurt many people as is demonstrated by est history, e.g. complaints, lawsuits, bad press, etc."

Yes, some do see him that way. I don't because of the benefits I gained from his work.

We live in a capitalist society so I don't see any problem with him earning money from the distinctions that he and his company sold in courses. Do you? Are you an anti-capitalist? Are you a communist? A socialist? Probably not, it's likely that you are a capitalist, and if that is the case you can't make these silly charges about him making money by selling courses now can you?

Not everyone was bound to like the materials of the course. That is a hazard I suppose. Many people are complainers and busy bodies after all. Everyone is given the opportunity to receive their money back the first day of the Landmark Forum, and if I recall correctly the first morning or first day of the EST seminar as well. People were given many opportunities to commit to the course or leave the room in EVERY course I've ever attended of theirs. The reason? To make sure that everyone there was attending of their own free will. If someone didn't take the chance to leave it is then up to them! I never saw anyone who wanted to leave blocked from doing so.

I only once saw a person asked to leave as he wasn't willing to participate and wouldn't leave after it was very clear that he wouldn't keep his word to participate. Eventually he left just moments before the police arrived to remove him. He was treated with respect by the Forum Leader - it was amazing actually how clear the two of them got about the situation. Eventually he made his own mind up and left the room and the rest of us to do the work of the course as we choose to. If I recall the Forum Leader also asked at that point if anyone else wanted to leave with a refund and no one did.

So to me claims of it being a cult are bogus AS everyone that I ever met there was there by their own free choice and wanted to be there!

If during the guest events that I attended someone didn't feel comfortable being there I would always let them know that they were free to leave at anytime and that that was perfectly fine.


rrmoderator: "Later Erhard sold his privately owned company (est) and now it his run by his brother and sister as Landmark Education. Landmark Education left France after it was exposed on national television as a "cult" that used and manipulated people for profit."

Just because a few people think it's a cult doesn't make it so. I saw the television newscast that you mention (I think I saw the one you are referring to) and was aghast at how biased against Landmark that the journalists were right from the beginning of their story. Landmark didn't have a chance.


rrmoderator: "The legacy of Werner Erhard is strewn with breakdowns, broken lives and contempt, including a few ex-wives and estranged family. Very sorry life seemingly lived at the expense of others. A "racket" to say the least in my opinion."

To live life is to have breakdowns and those within your life who don't agree with you, who have contempt for you, or to be estranged from family.

You sound like a very judgmental person.

Are you or have you even been a member of Scientology? Just curious if this web site is another of theirs?

What cults are you a member of? Which church? Do you attend regularly? What are your beliefs?

Obviously I'm not one of the so called broken people. I benefited greatly from Werner's work - yes his original and distinctive work. Yes he sees further as a result of standing on the shoulders of others who came before him such as Heidegger. If I'm not mistaken he didn't want to create a church as the vehicle for his organization as a result of the mistakes that he saw happening with Scientology. I'm glad to for I wouldn't have gone anywhere near it had he done that. Yes he changed his name, so now everyone who changes their name is a criminal or con man? Very strange attitude. That would make a couple of friends of mine criminals just because they didn't like their birth names? Very weird indeed to bring that up over and over again - sounds like you only do that for another baseless attack.

As for claims of cult. It's a matter of opinion. I think the Roman Catholic Church is a cult. Do they? No, but to me they are a dangerous cult for their propagation of the vile beliefs taught in the bible. So cult is a matter of perspective.

I've met many Roman Catholics who've been through the Landmark Education programs who don't think that their church is a cult by the way. And yes I think those friends are deeply into their christian death resurrection cult. So it is a matter of perspective indeed.

Fine for you if you think that they are a cult - that is after your right to express your opinion. Of course it doesn't sound like you've ever attended any of the courses through to completion have you? Maybe you should to check out what they are actually about.

I'd not attend a Scientology course since it's clear from my understanding of science that their little gizmo is a con.

I've not seen any similar con going on with Landmark Education. They simply offer courses for people to be coached. If you don't want the coaching then don't attend their courses. I don't understand why you're such a busy body about them.

In all my years of attending their courses I've never met one person who was "damaged" by their courses. Where are they?

None of the many hundreds of people that I got to know over the years claims to be "damaged" by them. Could it be that the damaged people are simply wanting someone to blame? Could it be that they are looking for a scape goat to blame their own problems on? Could it be that people who should not have attended the courses lied and got in anyhow? The vetting of people who attend the course is quite through but not infallible since people can and do lie at times.

I think that your conclusion that Werner, EST or Landmark Education are harmful is mistaken. I've never had any experience other than being treated excellent by everyone involved. I attended many courses in two different countries spanning two and a half decades - not just form them but through other groups as well and I can say without reservation that EST and Landmark Education has always treated me with respect and care. As an assistant involved in the Introduction To The Forum Leaders course I was instructed to do the same. I never experienced any of the negatives that are claimed and I am highly - if not extremely cult adverse - as many of my friends and writings online can attest.

Once again I must ask, is or has ANYONE involved with your Rick Ross web site a member or been a member of the Crutch of Scientology? They are well known for smear tactics from what I read.

Also, what churches do your members belong to? What biases do you bring to your classification of groups as cults? What are your backgrounds? What qualifies you to decide which group is a cult and which isn't?

Zorro, I would rather discuss Werner and the silly claims that you people have about him and EST and Landmark Education.

The point about Bush and Cheney came up to put things into perspective. They are the dangerous ones. In comparison to them Werner is a saint (not that I believe in saints). As far as I know of Werner has never murdered anyone, which Bush ordered the Invasion of Iraq causing the deaths of many 10's of thousands of people including untold innocents. Werner is not a war criminal while Bush and Cheney are. Now that we've gotten that perspective out of the way we can focus on the main relevant topic.

I simply do not concur with the assessment of Werner, EST or Landmark Education being classified as a cult.

Zorro: "I can say this though, we have one thing in common we both consider a controversial figure a criminal....You consider Bush a Criminal....I consider Werner a Criminal. To me Werner is much worse than Bush. Werner created Landmark which is out for total world domination."

You can say it but it ain't so no matter how much you say it.

How is it that you can claim that Landmark is out for total world domination? What are you going on about? Sounds like you are delusional there Zorro or are flame baiting on purpose. You are simply making that up.

As far as I know Werner never murdered anyone. Bush has murdered many with his war. Morally and ethically there is no debate about Bush being a mass murderer - he ordered the killings - he even did so on television in plain sight of the world! I think you perspective is messed up.

Zorro: "Was it right for Sadams son to rape women then cut off their heads and leave their heads on the fences outside their families home? From what I recall in the Landmark Advanced Communications Course, those poor people should have just accepted what happened to them and stayed in their place!"

So you attended the Landmark Advanced Communications Course did you?

If that question was posed it was likely posed as a rethorical question to get you thinking about it!

No one that I know of in the course or in the Landmark company would ever have condoned what Saddam did or that those people should have stayed in their place as you suggest.

The Landmark Forum is a conversation that involves the discussion of your moral and ethical issues. It doesn't however impose it's own set of morals, ethics, or beliefs upon you. What it does is raise moral and ethical choices to elicit your morals and ethics as they impact how your are being in your life and if you can't see how your thoughts are directing your life you are bound to be trapped by them. Fairly basic stuff. How you got confused about it I don't know, likely it has more to do with you than with them from my experiences of being in many courses including the one you mentioned.

What is your religious background Zorro? What religious cult do you belong to now? Or which cults have you belonged to?

pwl:

Don't discuss your political opinions in any way, shape or form on this thread.

This is thread is not about politics.

Don't engage in political analogies, no one is interested.

This thread is about Werner Erhard.

Last warning

Very well mr moderator. By your command oh person imposing censorship in violation of my rights under the constitution. Funny that anti cult forum would impose censorship isn't it?

My point has been made anyhow about the perspective distortion that seems so rampant against a man who has never been charged with a heinous crime such as murder.

You people seem to have a harsh attitude to that which you don't like to hear.

Your beliefs about Werner are disproven by people like myself who have nothing but positives to say about our experience with Werner, EST, and Landmark Education's programs.

How can it be that the vast majority of people who attend their programs have positive experiences about it? If it was the cult like you falsely claim wouldn't there be many more people who would have written tell all books? The fact is that most graduates of their programs are satisfied with the courses and simply get on with their lives in a healthy manner. Those that are damaged I suspect were likely damaged before they attended. To prove your claims that they were damaged during the course you have a very large burden of proof. I noticed a large number of lawyers on your board of directors, they would know that the burden is large on the side making the claims against someone in a court of law.

It seems to me that you have your own little cult going on here at RickRoss.com.

pwl:

Please understand that simply dismissing facts doesn't change them.

Landmark left France in disgrace, the company was exposed and humiliated by the broadcast.

Dismissing such facts doesn't change that.

You have cited no facts to support your conclusions, only your subjective experience.

Again, try to understand that an opinion doesn't alter historical facts.

Est/Landmark has been found guilty of labor violations, settled lawsuits regarding very serious personal injuries rather than go to trial, and generally has received far more bad press than good press.

Why do you think the company currently requires a waiver be signed before taking its courses regarding binding arbitration concerning any personal injury, thereby relinquishing the right to a trial by jury?

Licensed therapists, counselors and accredited educational programs don't typically require such waivers.

Erhard, est and Landmark generally have a bad reputation, as anyone researching seriously will find out.

Your response doesn't reflect meaningful research, but rather the level of your devotion.

Erhard produced no "technology," but rather a belief system.

And you have demonstrated that you are a true believer and nothing more.

There is no peer reviewed scientific study that has been published in a reputable journal that demonstrates Erhard's training ever produced anything objectively measurable amongst graduates, i.e. higher income, better grades, lower divorce rate, less need for counseling, etc.

After many years the Rosenbergs have chosen not to fund any meaningful objective research to demonstrate that the training they sell has any objective measurable results.

What est/Landmark produces stirring testimonials, much like religious preachers, these testimonials are anecdotal and based upon subjective experience.

Erhard, est and Landmark have only proven the understand the power of persuasions, i.e. that people can be persuaded they have achieved a good result, should pay for more courses, recruit others and work for free as volunteers.

FYI-- by "breakdowns" I specifically meant mental breakdowns.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Please understand that attempting to attack me personally will not change the facts about Erhard.

I am not a "Scientologist" and have no personal interest in Erhard.

It is a fact that Scientologists have long felt that Erhard, who once studied Scientology, stole from them.

Scientology also claims to have a "technology," but has chosen to become a religion, recognizing it is a belief system.

Landmark remains simply a business scheme.

It appears this thread ended up in the Blog search engines, and caught the attention of a couple Werner Erhard internet promoters.
The last few years, Werner Erhard has started to try and rehabilitate his Public Image in the media, with that shill-film, shill-articles, etc.

Good thing the facts from the past are clear and well documented, to Werner Erhards true ugly legacy will go down in the history books.

Its comical how the tiny handful of those who still follow Werner Erhard, (not being paid by the hour to do so) try to defend his "work".

But why don't they start from the beginning?

There is no such thing as a "Werner Erhard".
Its a fake name.
Why did he pick a German name?
Why is "Werner Erhard" hiding in exile on a boat somewhere? Why is he so afraid of life? Is he a coward?

Why did Jack Rosenberg abandon his family?
Do you see a pattern of a person who cannot face reality, who is a coward, who runs from reality and hides? Changes his name over and over?
Flips the ownership of companies around to hide ownership?

Why do they try to pretend he has nothing to do with Landmark? Do they think people are that stupid?

As far as his definition of "INTEGRITY", we'll get to that later.
But notice how his definition of Integrity means you can do anything you want, unrestrained by Morality, Ethics, or even Legality?
Maybe Werner Erhard influenced ENRON? (that would not be surprising at all, they believed the same thing).

Guess what?
Jack Rosenberg is wrong. If you do what he says, you will end up in jail, or living on a boat in hiding, or in a van down by the river.
You will destroy your family and life.

But Jack-Werner knows its all bullshit, he made it all up.
Seems he gets off on making up bullshit, and getting other people to believe it.

Did Jack Rosenberg "keep his word?
Does he have Integrity, even by his perverse definition?
Of course not, he does the opposite.
Werner Erhard does seem to enjoy screwing with people's minds, and getting them to believe the opposite of reality.

Let us take a trip down Memory Lane.

Werner Erhard was cosidered by many to be a 20th Century Buddha like figure; having declared his own "enlightenment". He hung out with various "genuine Indian gurus" and the like, like Swami Muktananda and the 16th Gyalwa Karmapa of Tibetan Buddhism.

When Werner toured with Muktkanada he had to put up with the Swami's eccentricities, like not showing up when he agreed to. But Werner knew that men at that level don't have to follow anybody else's silly little rules. He had trancended them, and so Werner got that this was so. Werner's patience and compassion were really put to the test with Muktananda, and he handled the situation with his customary grace.

It was in the Indian sub-continent where Werner met with the 16th Gyalwa Karmapa. Werner's meeting with the Karmapa was most fascinating. He was dressed in a western business suit, and the Karmapa had on his Karmapa get up. They sat down together. Tea was served. It is not that often when two great men get to meet like that. Oh, to have been a fly on the wall. After a few niceties had commenced it was time for the upstart from the West to be tested. Via interpretor, the Karmapa asked Werner what was the most important thing about the very tea cup from which he drank.

"The space inside", replied Werner.

Too easy! The Karmapa broke out into a broad smile. The visitor had passed the test. He was the real deal, not just a salesman pushing McEnlightenment.

One of the Karmapa's acolytes whispered into the ear of another. "Damn, that Erhard's good".

Then the Karmapa revealed to Werner an ancient Buddhist prophecy, one that was many centuries old. One day there was to come a new method of achieving nirvana, a way that did not require 40 years of meditation, solace, and celibacy. This new way would come about in an age "when iron birds fly", or something. Holy smokes! They even knew Werner was coming! Well, after meeting the 16th Gyalwa Karmapa Werner was a "made guy" in the enlightment game. He had received the ultimate validation.

Post Script:

Sadly, Swami Muktanana's reputation has sufferered in recent years. It seems that he wasn't quite as celibate as he claimed to be. Many fine young ladies who followed him ended up in the sack with him. This is most unfortunate. And the 16th Gyalwa Karmapa passed on in 1981. Just like the Dalai Lama, when he passes, a new Karmapa has to be found to replace him. But the 16th Karmapa has not one, but two competing successors. One of them has the stamp of approval of the People's Republica of China, and the other one does not. Perhaps Werner, with his tremendous ability to create possibility, can help sort this out.

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pwl
How is it that you can claim that Landmark is out for total world domination? What are you going on about? Sounds like you are delusional there Zorro or are flame baiting on purpose. You are simply making that up.

How is it that I claim that Landmark is out for world domination? Well it's quite clear by their "Landmark 2020" objective of having had everyone in the world participate in the Landmark Forum. Also they like to boast about their progress in making New Zealand the first "transformed" nation. I'm not making that up. I was in Landmark last year when they were talking about it. If that doesn't sound like world domination I don't know what it is then.

I'm not delusional or flame baiting, I know what I'm talking about and I don't mind speaking my mind even if it ticks people off.

Quote
pwl
As far as I know Werner never murdered anyone. Bush has murdered many with his war. Morally and ethically there is no debate about Bush being a mass murderer - he ordered the killings - he even did so on television in plain sight of the world! I think you perspective is messed up.

Explain why people have committed suicide after participating in Landmark. Could it be that Wereners teachings triggered something? Looks like the case to me. Just ask Nettie who used to be a member of Landmark and recruited his friend that later committed suicide. Werner may not have blood on his hands directly, but sure has it on his hands indirectly.