I saw Harner's book entitled "Hallucinogen's and Shaminism" and made a connection with Leary and Ram Dass. It appears to be an anthology of essays contributed by different authors.

As Corboy points out, none of us know the motivations of "hurtings" mother. Or what goes on at these shamanic training courses.

I saw the words hallucinogens, PHD, Shaman and inferred a possiblity that may not be true.

Good point Corboy.

Sooooooo "ana,"



>>>while i find a lot of the information posted on this site useful,>>


In the 35 some-odd years and mountain of experience, research, writing, observation, victimization, study, and cult-watching by scholars, journalists, academics, physicians, "victims," former members, analysts, deprogrammers, and families compiled here and you are able to find some of the information "USEFUL?" One presumes you are able to find the library "useful." One wonders to what USE you have put the information you have found "useful." (I am not convinced you have found anything "useful" here but that your opening is merely an attempt to present yourself as a reasonable and considerate person rather than the newly-minted and freshly indoctrinated follower I suspect you to be.)



>>i feel like i've entered the anti-cult cult zone & its just as creepy as any other cult.>>>


Honey, you don't know "creepy" till you've spent a little more time in the grips of the mind-manipulators and puppeteers in charge of whatever group you have "enrolled" yourself in. You don't know creepy till you find out what it is exactly to which you have given over your heart and mind and the real, true "creeps" at the top of the hierarchy who will use you and take advantage of you as long as they can get anything "useful" out of you. No, a few more years of defending, rationalizing, pretending, recruiting, ~assisting,~ submitting, following orders, ~proselytizing,~ memorizing and reheasing your responses, and maintaining a facade and a pretense of a "happy and successful" person and you might know what "creepy" is. Till then you are just another "newbie-sounding" neophyte sent out to try to engage the critics as a way of solidifying your resolve and setting the control to which you've been subjected in stone.

Some one figured out that the average involvement of a cult "true-believer" is seven years. Do you have that much time to waste. If so, have at it , dear. Cult victims make the best deprogrammers. Oh, and don't lose the URL to this website. It may be "useful."


Ellen

Ellen wrote:

"Honey, you don't know "creepy" till you've spent a little more time in the grips of the mind-manipulators and puppeteers in charge of whatever group you have "enrolled" yourself in. You don't know creepy till you find out what it is exactly to which you have given over your heart and mind and the real, true "creeps" at the top of the hierarchy who will use you and take advantage of you as long as they can get anything "useful" out of you. No, a few more years of defending, rationalizing, pretending, recruiting, ~assisting,~ submitting, following orders, ~proselytizing,~ memorizing and reheasing your responses, and maintaining a facade and a pretense of a "happy and successful" person and you might know what "creepy" is. Till then you are just another "newbie-sounding" neophyte sent out to try to engage the critics as a way of solidifying your resolve and setting the control to which you've been subjected in stone. "

Are you speaking from personal experience?

As Corboy noted about "hurtings" mother, we just don't know the facts, do we?

If you think "Ana" is in the clutches of evil brainwashers shouldn't you show some compassion for her?

After all, she can't help herself, can she?

The existence of this message board is itself an act of compassion and hospitality for the many who have come here in pain, asking questions and seeking sanctuary.

To permit this space to vandalized by taunts, jeers and invalidating mind games would undermine compassion, not support it.

We have a lot of material on hurtful groups. If a person is still loyal to that group, that information will most likely be painful. Getting mad at us and blaming us will not help you.

Its not our job to persuade anyone--only to provide information and a discussion space for people already doing their own thinking for themselves. It is up to visitors to use the information provided here, decide for themselves if their group matches the socio/psychological criteria for a cult (Lifton, Ofshe, Singer), not demand that we convince them or do their homework for them.

Someone who demands that we convince them that theirgroup is bad is wasting our time. The only person who can convince you is [u:68f064224f]you[/u:68f064224f].

Librarians point you to information but dont do homework for you.

If anyone nagged a librarian to do their calculus homework for them and would not stop nagging, the librarian would have every right to call Security and have the person escorted out.

As for 'hurting's' mother, it is true we do not yet have all the facts about how her mother decided to cut off contact with her family.

But we most certainly can and should ask questions.

First, an abrupt change in behavior, such as cutting off contact with your family (and friends!) plus a name change, merits concern.

We need to learn more about the circumstances in which 'hurting's mother decided to leave her family--whether this was her own decision or if undue influence is a factor.

Two, there is a wealth of information from tribal elders and anthropologists expressing concern about 1) whether shamanism can ever be separated from its specific cultural context and 2) the harm that has been done to tribal peoples and their spiritual pratices by eager seekers who commercialized these spiritual practices. All this and more is discussed and URLs provided here:

[board.culteducation.com]

Why concern oneself with whether shamanism can be validly and honestly taught outside of its cultural context?

Because if someone is going to invest signficant time,money, energy and (in some cases) perplex or worry their families and friends, they should be doing this in relation to a genuine and honorable spiritual practice, not something that is inauthentic and being taught without permission of the culture and elders from whom the practices originate.

>>Are you speaking from personal experience?

>>As Corboy noted about "hurtings" mother, we just don't know the facts, do we?

>>If you think "Ana" is in the clutches of evil brainwashers shouldn't you >>show some compassion for her?

>>After all, she can't help herself, can she?>>>



Depends how you define "personal."


"Ana's" post has that faint, or not-so-faint, odor of hypocrisy.


If she(or he) is sincere, she should know that what she's written and the direction she is heading has some pretty negative connotations to those of us veterans of the mind-control wars. You don't really think she came up with the "creepy, anti-cult cult" stuff unprimed, un"coached," coincidentally, or all by her own little self, do you?


And yes, if *she* can't help herself, who of us is going to have any impact on her? Unlike the bogus "self-help" organisations like Landmark, this "forum" does require one's own participation in judging what is valid and what is designed to manipulate, what is true and what is duplicitous, what is real and what is contrivance, what is beneficial and what is exploitive. At some point one either learns to distinguish or one remains continually victimized by those who use language, emotional, perceptual, and/or "spiritual" tricks. Or, one identifies with the abuser and becomes a perpetrator in their own right. Some people believe the road out of "victimhood" is to become a victimizer. After all, no own will ever feel any sympathy for you (consider you an object of pity or "victim") if you are an arrogant, opportunistic user. Landmark also appeals to these "wannabes."


Ellen

(Warning: Serious Message Cloaked in Metaphor)

It has been suggested that perhaps one of our correspondants who has misgivings about this forum cannot 'help herself.'

Oh yes she can.

Visitors and new members can 'help themselves' by reading the rules for participation here, then read posted material, then sit back and honestly assess their concerns and decide whether this forum meets their needs or not.

If you want us to 'do your homework for you' by convincing you that a group is 'bad', this forum will not help you.

It is up to you to read the material and come to your own conclusions.

Constant demands that we do your homework for you are considered an annoying nuisance by those of us doing our own homework and discussing our conclusions with others.

To consider this as metaphor:

If your feet are size 10 and you cram them into size 8's, after the shoe salesperson tells you they are size 8s, and the box label reads size 8, you cannot blame the shoe manufacturer or the store when your feet start screaming.

If the shoes pinch and blisters your feet, take 'em off and shop for a pair that fits you.

*If reading stuff on our forum blisters your mind, and inflicts ingrown emotions, log off and go to a different forum that's your 'size'. *

Its that simple.

The rest of us are here and stay here because what we've read on RR.com is our 'size.'

(Developing the metaphor further, let us imagine that a cult is high heeled shoes for the mind--temporary glamour, at the cost of subtle long term orthopedic damage htat takes years to become manifest)

At RR.com we do not take it kindly when told we should shop somewhere else or demand that this forum become a venue for lovers of cultic, spike heeled foot wear.

We did 'shop elsewhere', spent time living high-heeled shoes that pained and in some cases, seriously damanged our feet. We learned the hard way what fits us and what does not, learned the hard way (and paid the podiatrists's bills) to learn that spike heeled shoes were bad for us.

So we came here instead--to re-adjust to life in foot-healthy shoes, and deal with continuing pressure from a groups that aggressively market bad shoes and spread mis-information about sole and arch support.

If you want to cram your minds and emotions into the pointy-toed spike-heeled constraints of a high demand group, and you feel fabulous and glamorous while doing so, we will not stop you.

But if you're tired and in pain and have a bad case of spiritual hammertoes, have decided to remove those cultish spike heels, and are ready to try on cognitive footgear that supports the mind, and doesnt cramp it--then sit down with us and try on the selection.

Pick and choose.

Walk around.

Wiggle your toes and discover what freedom feels like.

Go to our database and discover what foot health is all about and how to maintain it and select the shoes that fit YOU best.

For those into high heeled glamour and exotic foot fetishes, there are loads of other places where you'll find gratification & indoctrination.

If you demand this at our place, you'll not get what you want.

Just leave us in peace to shop at RR.com for sensible orthopedic shoes that fit our minds--and souls/soles. And share discussions with other 'customers' who have opted for foot health rather than glamour and pinched toes.

Ellen wrote:

If she(or he) is sincere, she should know that what she's written and the direction she is heading has some pretty negative connotations to those of us veterans of the mind-control wars. You don't really think she came up with the "creepy, anti-cult cult" stuff unprimed, un"coached," coincidentally, or all by her own little self, do you?

Well, maybe you're underestimating her/him. Her statement wasn't that complex. And there have been posts on this website lamenting the fact that the LEC headquarters in NYC weren't full of more Landmarkians when the Twin Towers came tumbling down. Somone might construe that as creepy or downright odious.

Corboy wrote:

"It has been suggested that perhaps one of our correspondants who has misgivings about this forum cannot 'help herself.'

Oh yes she can. "

We agree. I think ana323 is fully capable of free will and self-help.

But if Ellen is correct, then ana323 can't even write a simple post on a message board without "coaching" from some LGAT "mindcontroller."

You have contended in other posts that even the strongest minds will fall prey to this very sophisticated brainwashing process, thougth-reform. If, in fact, ana323 has any connection with them at all.

So if she is an instrument of the collective LGAT of her choice she is simply a victim who "can't help herself." Because the LGAT has taken over, right?

So why strike out angrily at her, welcome her into your forum with compassion and hope she sees the light.

Wary posited:

>>We agree. I think ana323 is fully capable of free will and self-help.>>>


That's a bit of a leap, old boy. Unless you have some private correspondence with "ana," you are making an assumption that may or may not reflect her(his) current state. The spectrum of influence or control is a broad one. It begins with "suggestion" and ends with coercion. One may find himself at any point on the continuum depending on various factors. Generally speaking, when someone offers up that "you are fully capable of free will," there is a hidden agenda. In cult-land it is a ploy to pander to the "confidence" of the unsuspecting dupe. Ever notice how often Landmarkians assert to the skeptical: "Try it on, See if it fits, Try it and see, Use what works, etc.?" Their way to get the ball rolling. They know once you pick it up you are likely to continue along their path.

>>But if Ellen is correct, then ana323 can't even write a simple post on a message board without "coaching" from some LGAT "mindcontroller.">>>

That's right. We see it all the time. Why do you think there are so many who show up using the same idiotic jargon words and phrases? I can't speak to "ana's" case, specifically, but generally once the influence seeds have been sown there is a depressing lack of imagination in the responses or assertions of the followers. It almost sounds as though they are copying from some manual.

>>You have contended in other posts that even the strongest minds will fall prey to this very sophisticated brainwashing process, thougth-reform. If, in fact, ana323 has any connection with them at all.

So if she is an instrument of the collective LGAT of her choice she is simply a victim who "can't help herself." Because the LGAT has taken over, right?>>


Either, neither, or both. The "strongest minds" may fall for this stuff but can usually evaluate the negative information once it is presented to them. I say "usually" because there are exceptions.


>>So why strike out angrily at her, welcome her into your forum with compassion and hope she sees the light.>>>


Her(his) post implies some derision, some contempt, some scorn that she "adopted" or "choose" to believe. It implies some willingness on her part to "see" from the cult perspective. It implies a sort of voluntary perceptual defense. If you look at it from a "disease" standpoint, she has contributed or collaberated in her own indoctrination. Not completely "innocent," not wholly "at fault." We, most of us, are often willing partners to our own deception in the influence(conficence) game. Cults take advantage of this common human failing. They pander to us by using what people "want to believe."

"Ana" can certainly respond and shed more light on the question. My hunch is that she was just lobbing spit-balls.


Ellen

It pretty obvious that some folks come here and try to "bait" people by saying things to get people going, and probably have a good chuckle over it.

On the other hand, some people could find the analysis of all these groups to be disturbing. Many people just want to BELIEVE in these types of groups, without analyzing their possible motives.

This site has been a great education for me.
The main thing i have learned and developed, is the skill to evaluate what people are saying, and what COULD be behind their group, and their claims.
Many people go through their entire life without doing this, and just float from one culty group to the next, without realizing what is being done to them.

It is extremely healthy to criticize and analyze ALL of these groups. The people who run these groups HATE people like this, as we will not give them our minds, or our money.

I think some people could be disturbed by all of the critical analysis of all these groups. Its hard to break out of the mindset of "following orders" and to learn how to think for yourself.
But i personally do agree that there should be lots of "debate" encouraged on a site like this. Disagreement, and debate are very healthy, and very uncomfortable.

Coz

Coz wrote:

"On the other hand, some people could find the analysis of all these groups to be disturbing. Many people just want to BELIEVE in these types of groups, without analyzing their possible motives. "

The motive unfortunately tends to be money. Whether it's tele-evangelists, Scientology with it's E-meter($4,000) or LGATS with their ever expanding advanced courses.

Caveat Emptor

I saw it back in a "previous lifetime", over 25 years ago when I did the original Est Training. I liked it. I got my money's worth. But I never took an advanced course or volunteered for "assisting." I took one post gradute seminar but it quickly became evident that these were only created to "enroll" more people. It was a brilliant buisness strategy but a lousy product, those seminars.

So I said bye-bye. I know a few that took to it like religious converts. Some put themselves, against my advise, into credit card debt taking "advanced" courses like a junky does heroine. I later came to call these people "Seminar Junkies"

I came across this sight looking for info on the Insight Seminar. I know someone who was putting herself in debt taking advanced course after advanced course. It sounded like a familar M.O.

Coz also wrote:

"But i personally do agree that there should be lots of "debate" encouraged on a site like this. Disagreement, and debate are very healthy, and very uncomfortable."

Excellent point. I agree whole heartedly!