Klemmer and Associates
Posted by: anon ()
Date: April 09, 2004 06:11AM

Has anyone heard about this seminar group?
Our company has hired him.
I have been through the seminar.

This is definitely an LGAT!

Brian Klemmer during his seminar repeatedly refers to "Tom" his mentor who taught him everything.

I am quite sure this is Tom Willhite
founder of PSI World/Seminars.

Does anyone have any more info about this group.
They are under the radar as far as LGAT groups go cause I cant find much. But ties to PSI, MLM and Network Marketing are obvious.

Our organization is getting sucked in and I can't find enough concrete info to disuade them.


Klemmer and Associates
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: April 09, 2004 10:37AM

Read this site--it gives a good overview of how to evaluate LGATs.


Try and contact eldon.

If you cant get him through the site, sign up on the [www.freedomofmind.com] message board. He often posts messages there, and you can find him.

Be careful when you construct your profile when subscribing to any Yahoo listserve group. You must take extra precautions to conceal your identity when you go on any of the yahoo listserves.

1)Make sure your real name and home e-mail address do NOT show up on your post headers when you register.

2)Submit a test message to the listserve to ensure that your anonymity is water tight, and that just your nick name and its corresponding e-mail address show up on your message header.

[www.factnet.org] has a very interesting message board that sometimes has data on groups when no other site has it. See what they have and post your inquiry there, too.

Good luck.

Klemmer and Associates
Posted by: PasadenaGuy ()
Date: June 27, 2004 02:18PM

Brian Klemmer was with PSI for many years. He led the BASIC that I went through in 94. The 'Tom" he is referring to is Tom Willhite, founder of PSI. He left PSI to form his own personal leadership company that went out lecturing at businesses for leadership success. Some said he was trying to imitate PSI.

Klemmer and Associates
Posted by: anon ()
Date: July 13, 2004 12:06AM

Thanks for the reply.

I have tried to talk senior management out of this connection to this LGAT.

No luck. We are completely sucked in.

Flying staff to California, bringing him in twice now. The staff that went, when they came back, thats all they could talk about. Glazed look in their eyes. Going back on their own ticket with their wives.

Too bad a lot of money is going to be moving from here to California with very little return.

But I gotta leave it alone. Someone gave some good advice, "don't wreck peoples joy, it will blow over eventually, but keep being negative on this LGAT and it will cost you your job" so I am smiling and not getting sick everytime I hear the Klem-bot jargon. "Win-win, Victim-responsible, Red-Black game, Three R's, etc... yuck

Klemmer and Associates
Posted by: JeffH ()
Date: November 15, 2005 11:43PM

Too bad I got to this a bit late. I just found this site.

I attended a Klemmer & Associates weekend seminar ("Personal Mastery") this past summer. My wife's friend had been to one and convinced my wife to go; my wife brought me along.

The first two days seemed fairly basic, but building up to something: team building, personality style exercises, kind of "Dr. Phil"-level self-help-type stuff.

The last day was what got my guard up. It seemed like they spent the morning breaking down the attendees by doing things like having them relive painful memories. The last half of the day was spent listening to high-pressure (forceful but always with a "this will help you" tone, akin to getting someone into rehab) sales pitches to sign up for their next, week-long course.

My overall impression was that it had just enough self-help stuff to give the general impression that the course had helped you in some non-specific way, but didn't actually [u:8e5cc4260d]do[/u:8e5cc4260d] anything to help the attendees. Much of the course seemed like it was preparing people to be as suggestible as possible when it came for the big sales pitch at the end.

The most disturbing thing that I witnessed was the presenter telling everyone to sign up for a $3000 course [u:8e5cc4260d]even if they couldn't afford it[/u:8e5cc4260d]. Apparently, once they achieved "personal mastery", the money would come. Not being able to afford it was just an "excuse" (actually, any reason that anyone came up with not to take it was labelled an "excuse").

I got the distinct impression from the experience that the course was a scam. After talking to some of the staff (who said they were unpaid) and seeing how much they seemed to believe in what they were doing, I began to think that there were some cult-like aspects to the organization as well.

In any case, I'd avoid Klemmer & Associates.

Klemmer and Associates
Posted by: DiverGuy ()
Date: November 26, 2006 12:17AM

It's sad to see people make judgments without really knowing what they are judging.

You went to 1 personal mastery course and felt you had enough evidence to judge the entire program.

PM is about discovery. It is an entry-level course designed to help you see how you show up in life. It is designed to open your eyes to the fact that you are responsible for your choices.

If you (anyone) are on an evidence gathering mission, it will be easy to find people who are/were unwilling to look in the mirror at themselves and accept responsibility for their choices in life. Those people will shout that K&A is the problem. They will say it’s a cult. They will say it was a waste of money.

And, sadly, it actually was a waste of money for them. They were/are happy with their existence and are happy with what they have and where they are in life. They are happy with their relationships exactly as they are.

For those people, I agree, K&A is not for you. Their courses will not help you and you will simply be annoyed and irritated.

However, for anyone who wants to improve their relationships; for anyone who wants to improve their business; for anyone who wants to improve their lives and be happier and more fulfilled... AND are willing to accept that they are at least partly responsible for where they are in life... for anyone who is willing to look at how they truly 'show up' in life...

To them.. I say.. K&A will be worth more than the price you pay in $$.

Both my wife and I have been through the complete K&A series of courses and it has given us an incredible jump in our relationship (which was already good before we went). It gave us a way to handle disagreements and it opened both of our eyes to personal responsibility and choice.

K&A is not for everyone. However, it is for anyone who is willing to look at himself or herself as others see them and for anyone open to the possibility of something better in their lives.

Cult? bah. There is nothing secret or hidden. There is no magic or mystery. Its about providing a safe environment where individuals can make choices, show up and then reflect on how they 'played' the game.

Be careful how you ask your questions. You will always be able to find someone who agrees with you and then you will have *proof*.

Best Regards,

Klemmer and Associates
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: November 26, 2006 12:25AM

Mass marthon training has a bad reputation and many people have been hurt by it.

See [www.culteducation.com]

[b:1b52e49a1b]13 liabilities of encounter groups, some of which are similar to characteristics of most current mass marathon psychotherapy training sessions:[/b:1b52e49a1b]

They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.

They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.

They lack clearly defined responsibility.

They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.

They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.

They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.

They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.

They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.

They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.

They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.

They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.

They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.

They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions. (1969, p. 13)

As a result, participants and leaders may unconsciously distort their feelings and responses when reporting to researchers about the group or recruiting for future groups. This might result in a deceptive "oversell" that could undermine informed consent and lead to unrealistic regressive expectations in new recruits, the specific type of problems that have been found to lead to psychological casualties (see Yalom & Lieberman, 1972, below). Since these liabilities are so similar to the techniques used in some mass marathon training's, they may also cause psychological damage in that setting as well.

[b:1b52e49a1b]The groups were determined to be dangerous when:[/b:1b52e49a1b]

Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.

Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.

Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.

Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."

Yalom and Lieberman concluded by again emphasizing the crucial importance of informed consent. "Our best means of prevention," they maintained, remains the type of group the subject enters, and our best means for prevention is self-selection. If responsible public education can teach prospective encounter group members about what they can expect in terms of process, risks, and profits from a certain type of group, then and only then can they make an informed decision about membership. (p. 253)

It is instructive to note that many mass marathon organizations are conducting their training in the exact manner found by Yalom and Lieberman to cause the greatest number of psychiatric casualties

Klemmer and Associates
Posted by: DiverGuy ()
Date: November 26, 2006 12:43AM

Mass marthon training has a bad reputation and many people have been hurt by it.
It is instructive to note that many mass marathon organizations are conducting their training in the exact manner found by Yalom and Lieberman to cause the greatest number of psychiatric casualties

Similar 'generic' judgements can be made for almost any organization on the planet.

The thread was specifically about K&A and you responded with a generic bashing. Do you have any indication or evidence that K&A falls into your generalized grouping?

Klemmer and Associates
Posted by: DiverGuy ()
Date: November 26, 2006 01:11AM

Has anyone heard about this seminar group?
Our organization is getting sucked in and I can't find enough concrete info to disuade them.


This is an old post (2004) so I do not expect a reply. However, I notice that the person has made up his mind, for whatever reason, and is on an 'evidence gathering mission' to 'disuade' his company.

Refer to my other posts "you can always find someone who agrees with you" The real challenge is to try to find evidence that disagrees with you and then evaluate both sides.

'Sucked in' / 'disuade' ... these words indicate that the person has already made up his mind.. and he then later admits to not being able to find any information to back up his conclusion and is asking for help. Surely if the conclusion was sound, he would not need 'more' evidence than he already has.

To his defense, a company should NOT force anyone to go through these courses. It will be a waste of company money and the attendee will be closed to the process and, in all likelyhood, will be both disruptive and ruin the class for others around him.

Attendance should be completey voluntary for those who are seeking to improve their lives and understand why they are making the decisions they are making.

In fact, K&A always gives every participant the opportunity to opt-out without any strings and will not 'report back' to the company who sent them.

Does Klemmer and Associates offer an incredible opportunity full of value? You bet it does.

Is it for everyone? Absolutely not.

In fact, K&A will not knowingly accept people with documented psychological disorders where the person would be at risk to themselves or others.

Best Regards,

Klemmer and Associates
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: November 26, 2006 01:21AM


This is not a "generic" post, but rather a meaningful list for people to look through for potential problems.

Mass marathon training is in this sense somewhat "generic," one group copies another and they are often largely the same with the same problems.

That is, many groups are led by someone that once attended another group and then lifted and/or adapted the so-called "seminar technology" to create their training.

For example, according to previous posts here K & A is apparently adapted from PSI.

The warning lists posted are appplicable to any LGAT or mass marthon training program and helpful in determining potential problems and/or risks in a group's training approach.

Your responses here are quite defensive and eerily similar to what people say on other threads defending Landmark Education, such as "It's not for everyone."

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