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diashto
No, i'm not scared of any reprocussions on myself.. bring it on. I just dont want the parties that have shared those experiences to be given any grief because they did share some of the things that went on.

Ok, I just wanted it to be clear to anyone else that nobody at HAI threatened you with anything. That does happen in other groups, and it would have been easy for what you said to be misinterpreted that way.

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diashto
There's something that can be said about saving things like that for one person.. to make them special, unique, and only for one person. Tell me, what do you save for your wife, now that you've shared these things with everyone else? A spot on your tax return?

Well that's a valid point. You attach more importance to the physical than we do. That's fine, you should follow your own path.
My wife is someone that I have a lot of history with, have had children with, and grandchildren (somehow I should feel old, shouldn't I?).
Finding someone to hold you during an orgasm isn't that hard.
Finding someone to hold you when you're puking your guts out is more difficult.

What I have for her, is a deep commitment to keep our relationship alive and growing, which I think is FAR more important than nudity or sex.

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diashto
It makes you a nudist, nothing more.

I don't know that I would go that far, though I wouldn't rule it out.
I just think that it's brought me out of some unfounded fears that have been bothering me for 30 years.

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diashto
See above. Where do you draw the line, how do you make your wife feel special about how you feel about her? Physical level notwithstanding (your body being human, male, and prone to outside influence), how do you raise one relationship over another, if you're constantly falling in love with one person or another? Can you honestly say there's something you do for/to her that you wouldnt do for someone else?

Hmm, interesting.
I guess we don't define it that way, not in a physical sense.

But let me ask you this: Why do you need to raise one relationship over another? We've made commitments to each other to stay with this relationship, and to not deliberately do anything that would diminish it.

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diashto
HAI seems to suggest that its okay to do for many what you should save for one - that's one of the big problems that I have.

You say that like it's a universal law, and that's obviously not the case.
If you feel that way, then by all means go with it, but not everyone feels that way.

More importantly IMHO, is that you keep to the agreements that you make. IF you made such an agreement, then you should keep to it. Agreements can be modified, but only with mutual consent.
When lori and I were married, we did the conventional vows, and by that contract, neither of us can leave the marriage except by death, FOR ANY REASON. Now obviously that's silly, but some people believe that's how it should be, and if that's their choice, then who am I to argue with it.

We are working on new vows now, and whatever they end up being, an unconditional ownership clause will not be part of the package.

I'm no christian, but I do think that Jesus was a good teacher. It's his later followers that I take exception to.

The idea that people should stop building up walls around themselves, and extend love to others is one that I completely agree with. Remember, love does not equal sex. Sometimes they come together, sometimes apart. Same with intimacy. All three together is wonderful.

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diashto
I have to apoligize, i didnt intend this to turn into a debate about what's morally right or wrong. Heavens knows i've done more than a few things that many people would consider questionable, if not outright wrong. Someone asked for information, and I simply put down my impressions and feelings during the one thing that i've experienced, as well as the things that i've heard from my special someone.

Hey don't apologise, I'm enjoying the debate, and hopefully it will show the nature of HAI properly, so that people can make an informed decision about wether this is something they'd like to do, or not.

And I find value in your points as a "sanity check".
One of these days, I hope to meet you IRL.

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diashto
Yes, i went in looking for problems.. and some of the things that i found i would consider problems - but many things were very good. Encouraging those to ask permission for hugs, touting being "at choice" to do one thing or another, etc.

I don't blame you, I was skeptical myself, but as you know we were in deep trouble and I was willing to take a chance. Otherwise I never would have signed up for it, the secrecy and expense were big red flags for me.
I'm glad I was wrong, and I consdider it to be probably the best money I've ever spent.

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diashto
The biggest question that I had for Felicia, and I really should have asked it at the intro, but I was more interested in getting something to eat than to try and extend the intro even further by debating it:

If all of these things are so good... why can't they be done with clothes on? There's no valid reason that I can think of to have naked people in what essentially amounts to a group-therapy weekend.

Well, you certainly CAN do the workshops fully clothed.

Part of it I'm sure, is to get you thinking outside the box.
Another valuable part of it is to get past the body issues that keep so many of us hiding, or feeling that nobody would want to know us because of how we look. That certainly was an issue for me, and I'm glad that I'm past it now.

We also take certain messages from clothing, and jewelery.
They specifically ask that you eliminate or minimize jewelery as well, for that reason.

I'm always being pressured to wear a suit, which is supposed to make me look more professional, and I'm sure it would, but it wouldn't make me more comfortable, or make the quality of my work any better. It's an artificial front, and something to hide behind.

Takes a certain amount of guts to show up at a board meeting at Visa in a tee shirt and jeans :)

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diashto
Mistakes? I didnt see any mistakes at my intro.. who made mistakes?

Felicia for one, if she stepped over the line and it sounds like she did.
In fairness you as well, if you felt pressured you should have called her on it at the time. Allowing transgressions like that to pass unchallenged are a slippery slope to disaster, and the sort of environment that neither of us wants to be involved in.

You shouldn't have been made to feel singled out or pressured, even if your choices were unusual. I wasn't there unfortunately, so I can't give an opinion, but I'd be very surprised if she intended it the way you took it. Still if you felt pressured, then you were. She deserved that feedback so that she could correct her actions. Being a facilitator, that shouldn't happen, but she is human, and rather enthusiastic as I'm sure you noticed.

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diashto
Again, apologies, these posts arent intended to be an attack on you or HAI, just a description of my impressions of the organization as a whole based on my interaction and observations. I'm by no means an authority on psychotherapy techniques, hypnosis, HAI, or morality. I'm just a man.

And by the reports of your fan club, an exceptional one at that :)

Okay.. I’m the person to whom diashto and dbvanhorn are referring in their posts.

Level 1 did make a huge difference in me. It affected a change in my perception of myself and my own value, and it empowered me to give voice to things I needed. My self-esteem skyrocketed, and I actually started to feel GOOD about who and what I am. I also stopped fighting the truths about myself that I'd been fighting for so long. I can't say I enjoyed my Level 1 experience, because I didn't. Enjoyment implies "fun" and the workshops are hard work. Fun moments perhaps, but in general... a lot of hard work.

Level 2 is all about the participant. It focuses on your relationship with yourself. Re-learning how to love yourself for who and what you are. I was very uncomfortable with the idea of Level 2, weeks before I went to that workshop. That experience rocked me to the foundations of my soul, my belief system, my comfort level and everything else you can think of. Things happened that truly scared me, but I worked through them at the time, with help and support of others. I participated as much as I was able to bring myself to do, but some things did NOT happen. As mentioned before, I kept my clothes on.

For most people, participation in HAI seems to make them more free, more comfortable, more relaxed. I am the opposite. I went from a casual nudist to someone who keeps her clothes on and doesn't WANT to share her body with just anyone. That is now reserved for diashto and no one else.

However, things have NOT been going well since the return from that. I was a dyed-in-the-wool cynic before I ever started any kind of participation with HAI. After L1, I blossomed. I think that workshop was something that I needed in my life at that time. But the rest?? I don't think so.

As time goes on, I get more and more UNcomfortable with things related to HAI. I've talked to an intern about it, and he tried to get me to understand that I was approaching from a different perspective (I had been exposed to fandom, casual nudity, paganism, polyamory, etc. before involvement with HAI so I was less shell-shocked). But that isn't the core issue.

It seems to me that HAI is a fancy and expensive way for people to cover up their search for sex with the pretty words of love. Since L2, there has been a couple looking to essentially start a commune with like-minded people. There has been a HUGE debate about the merits of polyamory v monogamy and it seems as if the HAI party line is that monogamy is unnatural and wrong, and although each person is supposed to make his/her own choice, the "right" choice is polyamory. Out of curiosity, I did a search in a blogging community on people who have listed HAI in their interests. There were quite a few. Then I started looking at their profiles. MANY of them had "group sex" or some derivation thereof listed as an interest. I found that very unsettling, and vaguely disturbing.

I don't think I want to be involved with HAI anymore. I don't want to go to Level 3, although I'm tempted to go with my newfound suspicion and see just how much pressure is at a workshop that I just didn't notice much before. I know all those people in HAI are oh-so-happy with the things they do/say/feel and I'm glad for them. But then, I also suspect that the people in Jonestown were happy to drink their kool-aid, too.

I don't need the ego stroking or validation that they give when it comes at a price to my self-respect and sense of comfort. I can look in a mirror and see that I'm okay the way I am, and I'm going to BE okay with anything that hits me. I have a man who loves me very much, who thinks I'm beautiful and sexy and wonderful exactly as I am. I have a best friend who understands me, has seen me at my absolute worst, and still thinks that I'm special. I have children who love me, and not just my own. I have a couple of other friends - I choose carefully, but the ones I have are stellar.

I have what I need, and if I need something else I'm strong enough to find it or make it on my own. I don't need a cult of people saying they love me in the hopes that I'll get naked and nibble on them. I don't need their drama, I don't need their pseudo-hippie love-fest mantras, and I don't need the aggravation.

I'm not saying that I got nothing out of the workshops. I DID get a lot out of Level 1. Level 2 was one that I probably needed, but it jolted me pretty hard. Some of the exercises were things I'd probably never consent to again. But HAI HAS given me a lot. It gave me my self respect.

I don't WANT casual sex, or to be somebody’s body-buddy or friend with benefits. I don't want to be dating someone who is involved with several others so I feel like I have to take a number. I deserve better. I deserve MORE. I deserve to be with a man who loves me for who and what I am, who understands that I am everything I am not only in spite of my past, but because of it. I deserve to be loved, cherished, enjoyed and treasured. I deserve to be the woman in his life – not the primary, not one of them, but the ONLY. That realization has allowed me to finally stop settling for less. And you know what? I actually HAVE someone who loves me exactly as I am, thinks I'm beautiful inside and out, and genuinely wants to be with me.

You know... HAI is responsible for that. The organization itself IS what jolted me into an awareness of what I want, need and deserve. But I have noticed subtle pressure to conform to certain other things that make me very uncomfortable. I'm definitely not saying HAI is all bad. I have had some very positive experiences with some people. I've had some negative experiences as well. But that happens in any segment of society, not just HAI.

At this point, I don’t feel comfortable going to another workshop. I don’t know if it's "I'm not ready" or "I don't need it." But it amounts to the same result. At this point, I'm choosing to live with the "take what you need, and let the rest go" idea.

Kath, Karenb, what happened? There was some discussion going on, then you dissapeared.

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dbvanhorn
Kath, Karenb, what happened? There was some discussion going on, then you dissapeared.

Daydreamer said everything I was going to say:)

It's a swinger's club, or a dating agency for those into 'alternative lifestyles.'
Love
Kath

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kath

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dbvanhorn
Kath, Karenb, what happened? There was some discussion going on, then you dissapeared.

Daydreamer said everything I was going to say:)

It's a swinger's club, or a dating agency for those into 'alternative lifestyles.'
Love
Kath

Now, I wouldn't go so far as to say that. It is NOT a swingers' club. A swingers club actively encourages people to switch partners for sex. HAI does not do this. They don't discourage it if people want to do it, but they do not actively encourage it. In addition, a swingers club is SPECIFICALLY created for this partner-switching sexual activity. HAI is not.

There is nothing wrong with "alternative lifestyles" as you call it. Gay, straight, bisexual, whatever. As long as the people involved are consenting adults, have at it. I, however, will not consent - and as far as HAI is concerned, that's GOOD - because it's the right decision for me.

Don't dismiss HAI completely out of hand based on what I've said. Unless you've actually BEEN to a workshop, you truly don't know. I've been to two, and I actually needed them at the time to help me grow into the person I am now.

Perhaps you should go to an Intro night and actually meet some of the people before you judge.

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kath

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dbvanhorn
Kath, Karenb, what happened? There was some discussion going on, then you dissapeared.

Daydreamer said everything I was going to say:)

It's a swinger's club, or a dating agency for those into 'alternative lifestyles.'
Love
Kath

Absolutely not, and that's not what Daydreamer said either.

At the level 1 workshop, you are specifically asked to refrain from starting a new relationship with anyone you met there for a significant period of time.

I'm pretty dissapointed here.. :(
I asked Diashto and Daydreamer to come over and give their views, even though we disagree in some respects, so that a fair and balanced view of what HAI is could be presented. All you do in reply is cast more wild claims.

Please do ask questions. I promise to answer them as completely and honestly as I can without breaking confidentiality.

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kath

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dbvanhorn
Kath, Karenb, what happened? There was some discussion going on, then you dissapeared.

Daydreamer said everything I was going to say:)

It's a swinger's club, or a dating agency for those into 'alternative lifestyles.'
Love
Kath

I wouldnt exactly call it either of those - although it would definately serve the purpose of both of those.

In a perfect, utopian society, the intentions and exercises, in their pure form, would work exactly as intended.

It just isnt that sort of world.

And i'm sorry, nakedness is one thing.. but touching and caressing (and going further) someone's body (including genitalia) at someone else's instruction certainly seems to constitute foreplay to me, or at the very least some sort of group vouyurism.

I agree with comments diashto's that a disproportionate number of HAI facilitators are hypnotherapists, and I'll go further to say that I find most facilitators have what I consider to be fairly flimsy professional credentials in general. Of even greater concern to me, however, are the HAI counselors, all of whom are local devotees of the HAI movement who help put on the workshops. They are known either as "HAI interns" or "HAI assistants." During the course of a workshop, one such intern or assistant is assigned to you as your "small group counselor." This person leads small group activities with the assigned group (usually 4-5 attendees) and is charged with "checking in" with these attendees during the workshop about how they are feeling, their reactions to the exercises, etc. After a workshop ends, these so-called "counselors" phone or email the attendees from their small groups to keep them interested in the HAI movement.

BE VERY AWARE that these HAI "counselors" have no true psychotherapy training and DO NOT follow the standard professional ethics required of licensed psychotherapy counselors!!! They are rank amateurs who can do more harm than good, and, after a short waiting period (only 3 months, I think) required by the HAI senior management (Stan Dale, etc.), they are free to approach any attendee from a workshop where they served as counselor and engage in a sexual relationship, if that party is willing.

Obviously, HAI doesn't put much stock in the notion of "transference," where a vulnerable person falls in love with a counselor. (Transference is a well-documented phenomenon, first noted by Freud nearly 100 years ago, and the American Psychological Association, the American Counseling Association and other professional organizations have written codes of ethics that strictly discourage sexual relations between counselors and clients.)

My PERSONAL observation from attending HAI workshops, parties, and other events is that way too often HAI "counselors" do become involved with workshop attendees. This is not to imply that there aren't some HAI "counselors" who are very sincere and try very hard. All I'm saying is that I think it's dangerous for these folks to be labeled "counselors" at all when they are not trained as counselors, nor have awareness of standard ethical practices for counseling.

I wasn't under any misunderstanding as to the credentials or capabilities of the interns or volunteers. That was never misrepresented.

The interns and assistants were never represented as professional counselors in any way. Their presence in our small-group sessions was more as a leader and volunteer to start things going, initiate discussion, etc. as people who had been in the setting before. In my small groups, the intern who led it also experienced breakthroughs during the small group shares. I don't think we were ever misled that those people were trained professionals.

I hosted a HAI party in early April, after having made the committment to do so back in November. I didn't want to have the party by that point, but fulfilled my obligation to do so. The party went well, Anne Watts was present (a facilitator) as were the two people in charge of producing the HAI workshops in the midwest. Of course, varying interns and assistants were present.... and since this was a completion as well as a party, that doesn't surprise me.

As for the relationships between assistants/interns and participants, there are very clear rules on this. At a Level 1, an intern/assistant may not begin a personal relationship with a participant for three months. At a Level 2, it drops to two months.

At L2, I specifically stated on Friday night to the group at bedtime that I did not want to sleep alone, and asked that an available man see me if he were interested in cuddles and sleep. The interns discussed it among themselves - and a few of them were interested in doing so, but they chose not to so as not to intrude on participant space, and to prevent any kind of relationship starting when it was prohibited.

At my L2 completion party, an intern made his interest in me well known. He was the one who told me that the interns had discussed my L2 request. He said that once the prohibition was over he'd love to go out with me. That is ALL he said, and never made any inappropriate advances. In fact, I did not see or hear from him again until January when I went to an Intro with diashto. At that time, it was obvious that diashto and I were a couple, and this intern was nothing but polite.

Although I have MANY reservations about HAI and about the blurred lines with regard to fidelity, sexuality, committment, etc., I can honestly say that I do not have any qualms about the interns/assistants and their agreement not to start relationships with participants before a certain time has elapsed.