Brainwashing and Influence in LEC programs
Posted by:
Guy
()
Date: April 22, 2004 03:53AM
Tricky,
I'll respond in a piecemeal fashion.
You're heating up.
Winning formulas are compensation programing.
Accurate.
LEC uses the term 'formula' not stratagy.
To stratagize and to formulate are active forms
While stratagy implies volition, formula does not.
Explore that one a bit further.
The wording is carefully crafted.
"this is just feel good hogwash that is a lot like chinese food -
you eat it and your still hungry an hour (or two years) later"
Which is why there are more courses to do.
More later....
Guy
I'll respond in a piecemeal fashion.
You're heating up.
Winning formulas are compensation programing.
Accurate.
LEC uses the term 'formula' not stratagy.
To stratagize and to formulate are active forms
While stratagy implies volition, formula does not.
Explore that one a bit further.
The wording is carefully crafted.
"this is just feel good hogwash that is a lot like chinese food -
you eat it and your still hungry an hour (or two years) later"
Which is why there are more courses to do.
More later....
Guy
Brainwashing and Influence in LEC programs
Posted by:
tricky
()
Date: April 22, 2004 11:03AM
Guy,
I'm sorry. I'm having a hard time following what you are explaining to me. Excuse me for saying so, but it seems
extremely confusing.
Could you explain a bit more, or put this into slightly
more context? Also, what was the reason you wanted me
to ask my friends about their winning formulas? Was it
because I would learn something about them? Or about
LEC? Or because it would help to understand/unravel how
they were hooked into it in the first place?
Thanks much for any help, you are very cool.
I'm sorry. I'm having a hard time following what you are explaining to me. Excuse me for saying so, but it seems
extremely confusing.
Could you explain a bit more, or put this into slightly
more context? Also, what was the reason you wanted me
to ask my friends about their winning formulas? Was it
because I would learn something about them? Or about
LEC? Or because it would help to understand/unravel how
they were hooked into it in the first place?
Thanks much for any help, you are very cool.
Brainwashing and Influence in LEC programs
Posted by:
Guy
()
Date: April 22, 2004 11:37PM
Tricky,
If you keep your questions simple and singular you will receive responses aligned with them.
When you post 6 paragraphs and I respond to one, you will be confused.
In one paragraph below, you have 5 questions.
I'll respond with one word: yes.
Now I'll ask a question:
When did you become aware that you were bright?
Quid pro quo, Clarice.
If you keep your questions simple and singular you will receive responses aligned with them.
When you post 6 paragraphs and I respond to one, you will be confused.
In one paragraph below, you have 5 questions.
I'll respond with one word: yes.
Now I'll ask a question:
When did you become aware that you were bright?
Quid pro quo, Clarice.
Quote
tricky
Guy,
I'm sorry. I'm having a hard time following what you are explaining to me. Excuse me for saying so, but it seems
extremely confusing.
Could you explain a bit more, or put this into slightly
more context? Also, what was the reason you wanted me
to ask my friends about their winning formulas? Was it
because I would learn something about them? Or about
LEC? Or because it would help to understand/unravel how
they were hooked into it in the first place?
Thanks much for any help, you are very cool.
Brainwashing and Influence in LEC programs
Posted by:
tricky
()
Date: April 23, 2004 09:13AM
"First principles, clarice. Of every thing ask what it is, in itself. Marcus Aurelius."
Well, to answer your question, I don't think there was any specific moment. I hope that's not some kind of heresy, but I honestly believe that my self image was developed over time, by a variety of different experiences, good and bad. I think it might be an oversimplification to say that there was some singular moment that just set my self image or formulas somehow... convenient for a seminar when you need 100 people to just locate some kind of reference point for personal change... but ultimately innaccurate, a kluge, and probably an interpretation just as subject to "stories" and all that as anything else.
Well, to answer your question, I don't think there was any specific moment. I hope that's not some kind of heresy, but I honestly believe that my self image was developed over time, by a variety of different experiences, good and bad. I think it might be an oversimplification to say that there was some singular moment that just set my self image or formulas somehow... convenient for a seminar when you need 100 people to just locate some kind of reference point for personal change... but ultimately innaccurate, a kluge, and probably an interpretation just as subject to "stories" and all that as anything else.
Brainwashing and Influence in LEC programs
Posted by:
Guy
()
Date: April 23, 2004 12:49PM
Tricky,
I didn't ask you if you thought there was a moment or your beliefs on self image development.
There was a moment. A single instance when you became aware you are bright.
You are bright and you know it. No shame in knowing yourself.
I know you're bright.
Now...When was it and what happened?
You may want to reflect on this for some time before responding.
I didn't ask you if you thought there was a moment or your beliefs on self image development.
There was a moment. A single instance when you became aware you are bright.
You are bright and you know it. No shame in knowing yourself.
I know you're bright.
Now...When was it and what happened?
You may want to reflect on this for some time before responding.
Quote
[i:f73a0c8ac5]Originally posted by tricky [/i:f73a0c8ac5]
[B
Well, to answer your question, I don't think there was any specific moment. I hope that's not some kind of heresy, but I honestly believe that my self image was developed over time, by a variety of different experiences, good and bad. I think it might be an oversimplification to say that there was some singular moment that just set my self image or formulas somehow...
Brainwashing and Influence in LEC programs
Posted by:
tricky
()
Date: April 24, 2004 01:43AM
Guy,
There's no simple answer to this. Awareness is gradual, not absolute. "Awareness" is really better stated in terms of self-image, since it is subjective. Like, I could say, "the moment I became aware that I am a jerk."
The moment [vague, also assumes that there was a "moment", which assumes all the rest of the statement]
I became [what is the process of becoming here? in what sense?]
Aware [what does "aware" mean here? in what sense, what degree?]
that I am a jerk [subjective self valuation]
Basically, this is a good example of a pacing type question. It is totally vague and nebulous, but allows an operator to tap into one's subjective experience.
"what was the moment you became aware that you were bright"
could translate as
"there was a point, when your awareness of your self changed, and then you were aware of your self and that you possessed a quality called brightness. Some interaction between you and the external environment caused this new awarenes. Can you describe the event that triggered this awareness, as well as when in time it occurred and what its significance to you was?"
When you say "what was the moment" --- moment is undefined. It is a process word... a moment when something else occurred in relation to some other thing... neither of which are specified.
If I attempt to answer the question, I am therefore filling in the blanks/meaning with my own subjective experience, which is really only useful to get me involved in the conversational process, get me following, get me fishing within myself... eventually I might see those "moments" as limitations, errors, etc. The question is actually meaningless, because there was no single "moment" as such. Like, when did I become aware that I am human? I am always "becoming" aware of that, and also "being" aware of it... the awareness deepens.
Still wondering why this was significant to ask my friends, from my perspective.
There's no simple answer to this. Awareness is gradual, not absolute. "Awareness" is really better stated in terms of self-image, since it is subjective. Like, I could say, "the moment I became aware that I am a jerk."
The moment [vague, also assumes that there was a "moment", which assumes all the rest of the statement]
I became [what is the process of becoming here? in what sense?]
Aware [what does "aware" mean here? in what sense, what degree?]
that I am a jerk [subjective self valuation]
Basically, this is a good example of a pacing type question. It is totally vague and nebulous, but allows an operator to tap into one's subjective experience.
"what was the moment you became aware that you were bright"
could translate as
"there was a point, when your awareness of your self changed, and then you were aware of your self and that you possessed a quality called brightness. Some interaction between you and the external environment caused this new awarenes. Can you describe the event that triggered this awareness, as well as when in time it occurred and what its significance to you was?"
When you say "what was the moment" --- moment is undefined. It is a process word... a moment when something else occurred in relation to some other thing... neither of which are specified.
If I attempt to answer the question, I am therefore filling in the blanks/meaning with my own subjective experience, which is really only useful to get me involved in the conversational process, get me following, get me fishing within myself... eventually I might see those "moments" as limitations, errors, etc. The question is actually meaningless, because there was no single "moment" as such. Like, when did I become aware that I am human? I am always "becoming" aware of that, and also "being" aware of it... the awareness deepens.
Still wondering why this was significant to ask my friends, from my perspective.
Brainwashing and Influence in LEC programs
Posted by:
Guy
()
Date: April 24, 2004 09:27AM
Tricky,
Have it your way. :o
You're the one that wanted to know how it works.:eek:
When you answer my question without the clever perambulations, we can continue.:rolleyes:
Or not...
Guy
Have it your way. :o
You're the one that wanted to know how it works.:eek:
When you answer my question without the clever perambulations, we can continue.:rolleyes:
Or not...
Guy
Quote
tricky
Guy,
There's no simple answer to this. Awareness is gradual, not absolute. "Awareness" is really better stated in terms of self-image, since it is subjective. Like, I could say, "the moment I became aware that I am a jerk."
<snipped for obvious reasons>;)
Like, when did I become aware that I am human? I am always "becoming" aware of that, and also "being" aware of it... the awareness deepens.
Brainwashing and Influence in LEC programs
Posted by:
tricky
()
Date: April 27, 2004 08:34AM
Guy,
Sorry, I just don't know how to answer that question honestly, and meaningfully. I was *very* hopeful that somehow that this was all leading somewhere. Then now, it seems like every question I ask is answered with a riddle, like you either don't know or don't want to tell me how this teaching is woven into the LEC conditioning process.
Now, it feels like on some level you're trying to defend the part of the landmark ideology that says that there are three winning formulas (just the idea that there has to be "three" is kind of silly if you think about it. Why not four? Why not one? etc.) and this is all kind of tied in with the landmark use of language and it's underlying reasoning and assumptions.
For you to say to me "what was the moment you became aware you were bright?" Is, funnily enough, the exact same device as if I were to say to you
"what was the moment you stopped beating your wife?"
See what I mean? It's called a loaded question. The question presupposes
A. you have a wife
B. you were beating your wife
C. you stopped beating your wife
D. There was a single moment when you stopped beating your wife.
I quite imagine that forum leaders must beat attendees over the head with this kind of logic/questioning constantly, most likely in the day one/day two forum time frame. It sort of narrows your awareness. Like, if I am the FL, and you are the attendee, and I size you up... ok, you're a clever guy, successful, educated... socially adept, etc. so then, while your trying to make sense out of all this landmark stuff, I call on you and say
"Guy, when was the moment you became aware you were [the thing I've decided that you are] ?"
Then, I've either nailed it and you just narrow down your life experience into a single moment and we're on the way to your quick and easy three day "transformation" or you fight back and we go round and round and round and round and "you're resisting" and "when your ready to stop philosophizing and get it" etc. etc etc. etc.
I, the FL, am certain that you are what I say, and that you became aware of it in some "moment", and you, the attendee, will therefore "get it" at some point because I insist on it.
"Yeah, ok, when I was 2 1/2, I think it was, and then I crapped in the toilet all by myself, and then I decided that I hated my dad, and also realized I was really smart, too. THAT WAS MY FIRST WINNING FORMULA!!!! Woo hoo!!!! Wow, through guided trance, coached introspection and group awareness, I've now figured out why I am the way I am, and how I've been limiting myself to these specific winning formula in my life. Yes, there really WAS a moment, and I really WAS able to figure it out, just like you said.
THANK YOU LANDMARK!!!"
*heh heh* What a bunch of hogwash.
NEXT
Sorry, I just don't know how to answer that question honestly, and meaningfully. I was *very* hopeful that somehow that this was all leading somewhere. Then now, it seems like every question I ask is answered with a riddle, like you either don't know or don't want to tell me how this teaching is woven into the LEC conditioning process.
Now, it feels like on some level you're trying to defend the part of the landmark ideology that says that there are three winning formulas (just the idea that there has to be "three" is kind of silly if you think about it. Why not four? Why not one? etc.) and this is all kind of tied in with the landmark use of language and it's underlying reasoning and assumptions.
For you to say to me "what was the moment you became aware you were bright?" Is, funnily enough, the exact same device as if I were to say to you
"what was the moment you stopped beating your wife?"
See what I mean? It's called a loaded question. The question presupposes
A. you have a wife
B. you were beating your wife
C. you stopped beating your wife
D. There was a single moment when you stopped beating your wife.
I quite imagine that forum leaders must beat attendees over the head with this kind of logic/questioning constantly, most likely in the day one/day two forum time frame. It sort of narrows your awareness. Like, if I am the FL, and you are the attendee, and I size you up... ok, you're a clever guy, successful, educated... socially adept, etc. so then, while your trying to make sense out of all this landmark stuff, I call on you and say
"Guy, when was the moment you became aware you were [the thing I've decided that you are] ?"
Then, I've either nailed it and you just narrow down your life experience into a single moment and we're on the way to your quick and easy three day "transformation" or you fight back and we go round and round and round and round and "you're resisting" and "when your ready to stop philosophizing and get it" etc. etc etc. etc.
I, the FL, am certain that you are what I say, and that you became aware of it in some "moment", and you, the attendee, will therefore "get it" at some point because I insist on it.
"Yeah, ok, when I was 2 1/2, I think it was, and then I crapped in the toilet all by myself, and then I decided that I hated my dad, and also realized I was really smart, too. THAT WAS MY FIRST WINNING FORMULA!!!! Woo hoo!!!! Wow, through guided trance, coached introspection and group awareness, I've now figured out why I am the way I am, and how I've been limiting myself to these specific winning formula in my life. Yes, there really WAS a moment, and I really WAS able to figure it out, just like you said.
THANK YOU LANDMARK!!!"
*heh heh* What a bunch of hogwash.
NEXT
Brainwashing and Influence in LEC programs
Posted by:
briggs
()
Date: April 29, 2004 03:03AM
I think you guys who have not done Landmark and are here writing all about it (putting in lots of hours) are pathetic. This Guy in particular deserves the Pathetic trophey.
You guys are pulling all this stuff out of your ass. It's like a bunch of virgins discussing sex. Really. I get nothing out of your discussions and therefore have decided to look for opinions on Landmark elsewhere. Do not take this personally, though. It's just that I find that people who've done Landmark and criticize it actually have something to say, but those who've never done Landmark and yet are so opinionated have just nothing useful to offer.
If you feel this strongly about LEC because one of your friends/relative has done, then I recommend you really look at yourself and why you feel this way. But I'd dare say you know nothing about the subject and any opinions you have are complete nonsense!
So long.
Briggs
You guys are pulling all this stuff out of your ass. It's like a bunch of virgins discussing sex. Really. I get nothing out of your discussions and therefore have decided to look for opinions on Landmark elsewhere. Do not take this personally, though. It's just that I find that people who've done Landmark and criticize it actually have something to say, but those who've never done Landmark and yet are so opinionated have just nothing useful to offer.
If you feel this strongly about LEC because one of your friends/relative has done, then I recommend you really look at yourself and why you feel this way. But I'd dare say you know nothing about the subject and any opinions you have are complete nonsense!
So long.
Briggs
Brainwashing and Influence in LEC programs
Posted by:
tricky
()
Date: April 29, 2004 04:15AM
Briggs,
Yeah, so long. Go change your name and log back in as some other "objective seeker" so you can try to promote landmark some more.
Or maybe I'm wrong about that... I don't know. Ok, but I HAVE been in a cult before, myself... and the one cool thing about this landmark experience is that it has really brought all my experiences and even this entire cult phenomenon, into really sharp focus for me. The thing you need to understand is, is that it doesn't matter what cult you are in THE "TECHNOLOGY" IS FUNDAMENTALLY THE SAME.
I mean, ok, maybe by the hypnotic or therapeutic techniques, some people experience "change" or "transformation" for better or worse, who am I to say? But the landmark belief system and teachings are just there for anybody to evaluate... yes? Would you dispute that? To say that there are three stages to everyone's winning formula is a philosophical statement and/or a psychological theory, which can be objectively analyzed and evaluated. I don't need to be put through 90 hours of intense "training" in order to be able to make an assessment of it's validity... although I might need that in order to agree with it.
:)
Yes, better that you run from these frightening heresies of which I speak... I am no believer in landmark. I dare DARE you to try to tell me one unique component of "landmark's" teachings which are true, infallible, and worthy of belief/service/transformation, or even scientifically supportable at all.
In the meantime, I will just keep polishing my "all time loser" trophy...
Yeah, so long. Go change your name and log back in as some other "objective seeker" so you can try to promote landmark some more.
Or maybe I'm wrong about that... I don't know. Ok, but I HAVE been in a cult before, myself... and the one cool thing about this landmark experience is that it has really brought all my experiences and even this entire cult phenomenon, into really sharp focus for me. The thing you need to understand is, is that it doesn't matter what cult you are in THE "TECHNOLOGY" IS FUNDAMENTALLY THE SAME.
I mean, ok, maybe by the hypnotic or therapeutic techniques, some people experience "change" or "transformation" for better or worse, who am I to say? But the landmark belief system and teachings are just there for anybody to evaluate... yes? Would you dispute that? To say that there are three stages to everyone's winning formula is a philosophical statement and/or a psychological theory, which can be objectively analyzed and evaluated. I don't need to be put through 90 hours of intense "training" in order to be able to make an assessment of it's validity... although I might need that in order to agree with it.
:)
Yes, better that you run from these frightening heresies of which I speak... I am no believer in landmark. I dare DARE you to try to tell me one unique component of "landmark's" teachings which are true, infallible, and worthy of belief/service/transformation, or even scientifically supportable at all.
In the meantime, I will just keep polishing my "all time loser" trophy...
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