Elizabeth,

I don't know if I hold any credibility with you as I am involved in the Sterling Institute, but I hope what I say helps.

Your daughter does not desereve a divorce.

This may sound backassward and will be hard to swallow but if you try this for a week, you might be suprised....

I urge you to show your husband love and support no matter what orginization he involves himself with. You have to ask yourself what's more important. That you don't like what he's doing... or that you're daughter sees her mother love her husband, accept, support, and respect him.

Do not make it about him. Do not even think about it. Make it about your daughter.

Your daughter does not desereve a divorce. Make this your mantra. Say it when you go into the place of fear for your relationship. Take the love you have for your daughter and focus it toward your husband if you have to.

If you do those things, you will get the gift of sacrifing your needs for those of the people you love. There is no greater gift and those gifts get returned to you.

I don't know anything about Landmark. But I do know that getting him information on it won't make him stop. Threatening him won't make him stop. Divorcing him deffinatly won't make him stop. Loving him unconditionaly might turn it from a problem into a no problem.

I hope what I've said gives you a different and helpfull prespective.

I wish you the best. Your family will be in my prayers.

Elizabeth--

"Sterling Guy" offers what is essentially the "mantra" of his group. That is, a relationship is the responsibility of the woman and she should essentially accept whatever her man does unconditionally.

Obviously, most thinking people would consider this bad advice.

Please understand that the actual source of this advice is really Justin Sterling, and that "Sterling Guy" is essentially repeating that group's philosophy.

You might consider attending marriage counseling with a credible licensed professional, such as a clinical psychologist who is also certified as a marriage counselor and not involved in large group awareness training.

I know it might be difficult to persuade your husband to participate, but it would be a meaningful option if at all possible.

FYI--Justin Sterling has no such credentials as a marriage/relationship counselor. He only has his personal experience, which is a bitter divorce and court ordered supervised visitation with his daughter.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Interestingly, as you can see within the article linked above, Sterling seems to have largely based his "weekend" on EST, now known as Landmark Education.

Interestingly enough, we were going to marriage counselling before my husband started Landmark. I will get back to the reasons for that latter. We attended some counselling sessions on our own and then we went together. My husband was not against it at that time. We made an appointment for another session but as it turns out my cousin invited him to be her guest at the Forum on the same night. He chose to cancel our appointment and go to her "graduation" instead because she told him he would get more out of Forum than he ever would with marriage counselling.

I understand the importance of loving someone unconditionally. Marriage has to be balanced and this unconditional love must go both ways. We both have needs and we must both work together to ensure each others needs are taken care of - either for each other or by each of us. I don't expect my husbands to take care of my needs but I do expect him to be aware of them. And vice versa. Understanding that, I believe, creates a good foundation for a marriage.

Without getting into too much details, for the last few years, I have felt our marriage to be unbalanced. A good thing for us is that my husband was diagnosed a few months ago with ADHD. This helps explain some of the issues I have had with his inability to take action. Something which has contributed to making our relationship unbalanced. I have never believed in the 50/50 rule. I believe that the balance in a marriage will shift depending on many things. At one point, one partner may be responsible for 70% of the responsibilities but at another time, the other partner will be responsible for 80%. As long as you understand that you are there for each other and that you are aware of the needs of the other person, the balance will always even out.

Obviously, since I am writing this, I feel our marriage has been out of balance for many years. My husband went to Landmark to help him with this. Now all of a sudden, all of my feelings are "my racket." I'm not saying that all of the philosophies he has been taught are not good. I've been reading and working on much of these techniques myself over the years simply by reading books and taking out tapes from the library. I am a person who will look at different point-of-views, theories and beliefs and make my own judgement based on who I am (my integrity). I don't need to be locked up in a room for three days to figure this out.

I believe too many people in this day and age, wash their hands of their responsibilities and then whine that they are not getting anywhere. Too many people are not willing to work hard at anything anymore and we are teaching our children the same.

I could go on and on but this is not a therapy session! I have been loving and supporting of my husband. I do not depend on him to fulfill my needs. I do expect him to be a partner in our marriage and I do expect him to take charge of his life.

Landmark has affected him in a way that I cannot describe. Although, Landmark gives him the impression that they are providing him with the tools to create his own possibilities, in reality they have taken away his ability to work hard at it himself. They have created an environment that is unrealistic. He only feels good when he is with his Landmark friends. They understand him. I don't. They now know how to create their possibilities. I live in my "racket" and won't move forward. The only way my husband can continue to apply the techniques and create his posibilities is with support of people who "get it." According to him, I don't.

I get it. I get it that he has been sucked in to believing that Landmark has all the answers. And, maybe they do - as long as you keep forking over the bread.

Elizabeth

Quote
rrmoderator
Elizabeth--

"Sterling Guy" offers what is essentially the "mantra" of his group. That is, a relationship is the responsibility of the woman and she should essentially accept whatever her man does unconditionally.

<snip>

can u address the fact that there are many
relationships that are destroyed by
attendance at landmark.

I don't know. I don't really know of any first hand. I know that my attendance gave me unimaginable relationships with my parents (who haven't done the forum),my sister, and my boss. I can only speak about what I know though. [/B][/QUOTE]


can u explain how your relationship is
suppodely better. and the facts are out
there that landmark does damage to
many peoples lives.

of course some people see a divorce or
dropping their friends and acquaintances
as not damaging.

and do u remember the empowerment process.
can we discuss it ?

For Elizabeth, and anyone else interested. Some of the best posts are from insiders who have defected. The posts from "Guy" are terrific. You can read all that he wrote by doing a search of his name on alt.fan.landmark. He reveals the tricks employed by the Landmark staff and will give you an idea of what your husband has been subjected to. Don't think these professional persuaders aren't skilled. They know full well how to worm their way into people's minds and turn them into something unrecognizable. (Also, Steven Pressman's book "Outrageous Betrayal" will give you some important history about the group.)

Here Guy is talking about Landmark's attempts to control criticism from defectors. (Many will recognize the scientology tactics and jargon.)


Ellen


>>>From: Guy (guyfawkes@parlia.com)
Subject: Re: ~completion~ with Landmark
View: Complete Thread (31 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: alt.fan.landmark
Date: 2002-04-11 08:28:59 PST




I was employed by Landmark at one time.
There is a ritual "completion". So that you are "clear".
It is another layer of hook and lever to make sure that you do not disrupt or
corrupt the facade.
They will try to deepen the implant of "being responsible for managing the
existence of yourself" meme to make sure that you are the one who is doing the
leaving without the "making Landmark wrong" meme.
I have no idea what you are complaining about, though I could venture a thousand
guesses.
But since it has been 2 years from your walkout and you are still using "stuck"
and "shifting" in your vocabulary(like it's wrong to complain in the "are you
making Landmark wrong" theme ), I recommend getting educated on what was
actually being done to you.
I would trust your complaints.
I didn't for many years and it cost me financially and mentally.
One of the things that I and others I've spoken with, have to reconcile in our
minds, is how do you detach the useful or valuable things you learned or
experienced from a mind-control organization. Hard not throwing out the baby
with the bathwater. That is one of the things Landmark counts on to keep people
from speaking out about them. When I worked there I used to "handle"
incorrigibles. Even to the point of making sure they didn't come back or speak
out by twisting their brains in a tight little knot. Even better was to untwist
them again and bring them back even more pliable. We used to wear "what we could
get people to do" like medals on our chests. We called it "sourcing".
Matter of fact, that is what gets you promoted in the company.
The only qualification to be a leader in Landmark is getting people to do what
you want them to do, i.e. enroll, enroll, enroll.$$$
And to stay in the "leader body" you must continue to keep your numbers above
"minimum standard" or you get a "conversation" about "who you're being that
people aren't enrolling" into the Forum, Advance Course, SELP, or FIA. Then if
your numbers don't pick up...not a leader anymore. Or at least until you "get
cleared" (bring your numbers up).
One of the "complaints" I "handled" was when folks started to smell something
fishy or inconsistant between the "making a difference" front and the "making a
buck" reality. When I first got involved I had to get "handled" with that one.
Fortunately I found that I could trust my gut and got out. Unfortunately it took
five years.
You must have done that on some level.
Many of us experienced something cool when we first got involved. You know what
I mean. Enlivened relationships and the thought that you actually make a
difference in the world. We all thought it was "sourced" from Landmark. That was
careful word-smithing on their part. Do you remember being asked "what you got
out of the forum?". In some "courses" we actually had to practice our "killer
shares" on the subject. It looks funny to me now as I think about it.
We practiced self-inclusive linguistic encirclement. Once you're in you have to
"stay in the conversation" to stay "enlightened".
Landmark isn't the only org to use the formula.

At some point if enough people say that the "Emporer is naked" (read
H.C.Anderson's "The Emporer's New Clothes") some folks will stop saying "what a
difference" his new suit made in their lives. In Landmark it's called
"generating agreement". I say if it smells fishy...trust your nose.
I realize that you addressed this to someone named Cal. I hope I'm not insulting
you by replying.

cheers
Guy>>>

ive had many conversations with guy
over the years.

Elena,

Thanks so much for the link. My naturopathic physician used Landmark technology to cure me of some health problems I consulted him on. It may have helped if he let me in on his use of this "technology". I then went to work for him, an ethical no-no, but being the narcissist that he is, I see how I was narcissistic supply to him.

The following from the email excerpt you provided really hit home for me.

"But since it has been 2 years from your walkout and you are still using "stuck" and "shifting" in your vocabulary(like it's wrong to complain in the "are you making Landmark wrong" theme ), I recommend getting educated on what was actually being done to you. I would trust your complaints. I didn't for many years and it cost me financially and mentally. One of the things that I and others I've spoken with, have to reconcile in our minds, is how do you detach the useful or valuable things you learned or
experienced from a mind-control organization. Hard not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. "

In another thread, I mentioned how it is difficult to report unethical shrinks and such like the guy I went to because being in a relationship with them is crazy-making. I trusted my complaints, but couldn't explain them. It cost me financially and mentally as well. There were days when I wanted to call him up and thank him, and then the next day, I wanted to kill him, but even then couldn't figure it out. It took a great deal of reading, posting, and researching narcissism, cults, sociopathic profiles, etc. to only begin to sort things out. After reading Outrageous Betrayal, it became clear that my doctor most probably wanted to be the the next Werner Erhard. That book really put many things into place for me and I recommend it highly to anyone thinking about getting involved in LGATs or those who have gotten out and are a mess.

Thanks again.

Thank you, Elena.

I am not sure how to do a search on alt.fan.landmark. I do go to this newsgroup through my e-mail software but I do not know how to search the archives. Could you help me with that?

This weekend was the biggest downer yet for me with my husband. I received no best wishes for Mother's Day - no card, no gift, not even the words Happy Mother's Day. When I asked him why his response was that since I hadn't been receptive to him and his effort to change (through Landmark), he figured I wouldn't be receptive to anything he did or said about Mother's Day.

I literally felt like he tore out my heart yesterday. I ended up going to the movies by myself. Do I blame Landmark for this? Most definitely.

Elizabeth

Quote
elena
For Elizabeth, and anyone else interested. Some of the best posts are from insiders who have defected. The posts from "Guy" are terrific. You can read all that he wrote by doing a search of his name on alt.fan.landmark.

"can u explain how your relationship is
suppodely better. and the facts are out
there that landmark does damage to
many peoples lives.

of course some people see a divorce or
dropping their friends and acquaintances
as not damaging.

and do u remember the empowerment process.
can we discuss it ?"

I have not dropped a single friend since I did landmark. I embarked in having a relationship with my sister at a point when we hadn't really spoken for 6 months. To use the lingo--I created being sisters withher. We now talk almost everyday. I had a good relationship but I was still blaming them for things that were wrong in my life and so I pretty much avoided spending time with them for any extended period of time because it would end with a fight. I can spend days on end with them without a fight. Because, I know that my parents just love me. I am the person to whom my friends turn to discuss the big issues they are facing in their life. I also realized there were people in my life whom, for whatever reasons, I had decided I didn't need--coworkers and the like--and I can tell you that even the people who do know what landmark is can pinpoint when I started to be nicer and it is down to the month that I did the landmark forum.

What do you want to discuss about the empowerment exercise?

of course some people see a divorce or
dropping their friends and acquaintances
as not damaging.

I agree that it is damaging and irresponsible.

I am just saying that in two years I have not come across that. I have come across people who pondering divorce decide to live inside of what they are commited to--making the marriage work.

Did it ruin any of your relationships?