Hope, i don't know anything about your particular situation, these are just my general thoughts.

The world is full of conmen, sociopaths, abusers, etc. Up to 10% of the population have some sort of quite serious mental disorder. I think 1% are sociopaths?
I myself was abused as a child by my father.

Now, all i can do NOW is to transform what is going on inside my own brain and emotions.
For instance, in CBT there is Traumatic Imagery Processing and Rescripting, which has worked for me, to modify the "frozen" tramatic images.

Different people have different vulnerabilities.
We can't change the world.
Once the trauma has been inflicted, then all we can do is pursue legal action.
But even YEARS after the legal action, what is necessary is Self-Transformation.
I hope you hear what i am saying here.

We need to ascribe a MEANING to our suffering.
If we were tricked and hurt, then we can learn how to not be tricked again. And we need to learn to TRUST again as well, as not everyone is going to hurt us.
Again, i don't know about your situation, but i do hope you find the best way for you to deal with it.

Coz

Cosmo,

I think your post was well meant.

There are some parts that I find a little "out of sorts".

"be very careful of HOW you think of your past"

At LEC, this was one way in which we discounted the participants relationship with reality.
We could get you to question the reality you were experiencing and dismiss it as being "just your perception" and "well, if that's how you choose to see it". Using peer pressure and social value constructs, by look, tone and words, LEC is able to undermine how staff and grads view reality. Then supplanting ours with theirs.

How would you be careful of how you thought about your inmate experience inside Auschwitz or Birkenau or even if you were one of the guards, captains, or Eichmann.

I do have a question about why you posted:
"I have never been a "victim" of a cult."
Why the quote marks around victim?

They would appear inappropriate unless there was an inference regarding the term that would alter it's meaning or value.

Are you saying that there are no victims, only people that think they are victims?
I'm curious.

Quote
Cosmophilospher

Also, be very careful of HOW you think of your past experiences.
For instance, if a person thinks,

"these HORRIBLE experiences i have received by those EVIL people has DESTROYED my entire life",

then those very Thoughts CREATE emotional and cognitive trouble. Its a self-fulfilling prophecy and vicious cycle.
Coz

Quote

"... a GOOD therapist with specialized training in dealing with people who have been in a cultic group. Some therapists have ZERO training and knowledge about it."

Rarer than hen's teeth.
Thanks for posting those great links and the information regarding Tony Robbins. They are way off topic here as the thread is to discuss PLCS.

Have you undergone CBT?
Who was the practitioner that you worked with? Did you try others?
How long did the treatments go on for?
Or are they still in session?

Please post the responses in another thread or PM as this thread was started to describe the symptoms of PLCS, not to give therapeutic solutions to them.

Guy

for a cognitive 'Micky Finn'

I found this on a discussion for an entirely different cult -- Elan Vital. But it seems to apply to problematic LGATs and I think it may also be a key aspect to how many, many toxic spiritual imposters function:

'I finally grasped that Maharaji thrives on the mixed message: independence/devotion, honesty/secrecy, trust yourself/trust the master. One half of the mixed message empowers and expands, the other half intimidates and reduces; one half provokes love, the other half fear; one half liberates, the other half enslaves.'

The mixed message thus strategically confuses.'

Again, you combine a meme from a valid spiritual tradition that actually wakes people up, and tie it to another meme that screws people up.

Its the mimetic equivalent of a toxic drug interaction.

Certain drugs, when in combination can make people deathly ill, and even kill them. If taken several hours apart, these same drugs are beneficial, or at least harmless.

Combining certain memes may produce the cognitive/emotional equivalent of a toxic drug interaction-only in this case, it disrupts critical thinking, puts the person at odds with his/her true self, and make the person disoriented and vulnerable to further manipulation.

And if this toxic combo of memes is implanted while you're in a state of trance, or an emotional state (eg shame or terror) that is painful, you'll have great difficulty applying insight and understanding how you were mimetically infected/doped.

Look, i am not looking for an argument.
I am just giving my opinion. If you don't like it, that is fine with me.
Just to summarize.

Have you ever read Victor Frankl's "Man's Search For Meaning"? This is about how to THINK about being inside a Nazi camp, and the MEANING the person gives to it.
So yes, it matters how we think about trauma and the meaning we ascribe to suffering.

Of course there are "victims".
But after the fact, how we PERCEIVE our trauma AFFECTS the symptoms of the trauma.
Example, I was abused as a child, and the offender went to jail. Did that help my symptomology? Nope! I still have to modify how i perceive the past, and what it MEANS to me in the present and future.

I know a lot about CBT-REBT, but will refrain from elaborating here.

My point in this thread, is that severe Cognitive symptoms need to be evaluated by a professional. Its a mistake, in my view, to jump to conclusions about what is causing them. Cognitive problems can be very tricky, as how we perceive them, actually affects them.
That is, our perceptions of our symptoms can create more symptoms.
That is how anxiety, panic, phobias, depression, PTSD, etc, are dealt with in CBT.

Also, HOW WE THINK about what has happened to us profoundly affects our present experience.
This is basic Phenomenology and Constructivism.

I'm outta here!

Coz

Cosmo,

No argument here, just elaborating on how phenomenology and constructivism can be construed for other than therapeutic purposes.

I also had a question about quotation marks, so I asked.

I've read Frankl's "Man's search for Meaning".

Quote


Quoting Roland Franz:
"During -- and partly because of -- his suffering in concentration camps, Frankl developed a revolutionary approach to psychotherapy known as logotherapy.

At the core of his theory is the belief that humanity's primary motivational force is the search for meaning, and the work of the logotherapist centers on helping the patient find personal meaning in life, however dismal the circumstances may be.

Frankl wrote that one can discover the meaning in life in three ways: "by creating a work or doing a deed; by experiencing something or encountering someone; and by the attitude we take toward unavoidable suffering.""

I'm not going to wrangle with Frankl's thoughts or conclusions about man.
Way off-topic.
The purpose of this thread is to describe the symptoms encountered from the interaction with Landmark Education. There are many of us that find ourselves suffering previously unknown phenomena in our daily lives. This thread is to distinguish them for ourselves and perhaps for others.
I'll leave the "helping the symptomology" to trained professionals. That's not my area of expertise.

Frankly, Cosmo, I've appreciated your posts on Tony Robber immensely. I found them insightful, intimate, and a boon to revealing a long running con game by a master con.

Quote
Cosmophilospher
Look, i am not looking for an argument.
I am just giving my opinion. If you don't like it, that is fine with me.
Just to summarize.

Have you ever read Victor Frankl's "Man's Search For Meaning"? This is about how to THINK about being inside a Nazi camp, and the MEANING the person gives to it.
So yes, it matters how we think about trauma and the meaning we ascribe to suffering.

Of course there are "victims".
But after the fact, how we PERCEIVE our trauma AFFECTS the symptoms of the trauma.
Example, I was abused as a child, and the offender went to jail. Did that help my symptomology? Nope! I still have to modify how i perceive the past, and what it MEANS to me in the present and future.
<snip>
My point in this thread, is that severe Cognitive symptoms need to be evaluated by a professional. Its a mistake, in my view, to jump to conclusions about what is causing them. Cognitive problems can be very tricky, as how we perceive them, actually affects them.
<snip>
Also, HOW WE THINK about what has happened to us profoundly affects our present experience.
This is basic Phenomenology and Constructivism.

I'm outta here!

Coz

You guys are very, very close to the live wire, the third rail, the most dangerous and deadly part of Landmarky-type or covert abusive manipulation, or, conversely, the most beneficial part of something like Cognitive Therapy or Logotherapy.

It is the examination of the malleability of perception or meaning people ascribe to events that can be useful in the hands of an ethical practitioner or deadly in the hands of an exploiter.

Reminds me of that saying about the most dangerous lie being only the slightest shade away from the truth. What Werner Erhard said to the lady who had been in a concentration camp was very, very close to what Victor Frankl says.


Ellen

Recovery from a cult takes place in several stages.

You cannot get a sense of existential meaning from your suffering until after you've fully traced the extent to which you were

1) manipulated

and 2) suffered -- and continue to suffer

only after completing steps 1 and 2 do we have sufficient foundation to go on to

3) seek a sense of meaning in the suffering and (where appropriate)

4) identify blind spots that enabled the cult meisters to hook us in.

When we have been lied to by a sophisticated operation like a problematic LGAT or by a psychopathic person who has legitimate professional credentials, blind spots dont matter so much--these entities can con even the brightest people.

In my case, I was hooked by a guy who exploited blind spots I had as a result of childhood trauma, so for me, my recovery had to include personal analysis of my past. But that was only possible AFTER I fully traced the extent to which Id been exploited by the crook and what this cost me.

Recovery can be hampered if we are pressured to impose a sense of meaning on our suffering before we have become fully conscious in relation to our suffering and have fully purged the meme viruses from our minds and emotions.

So, we have to do what Cosmo and Guy recommend, while remembering that these are done at different stages of recovery.

Whats 'right' at one stage of recovery will hamper you at another stage of recovery.

Again, both Guy and Cosmo are right

First identify your suffering & how you were manipulated and meme-infected

Purge yourself of the memes

Then, and only then, look for existential meaning.

Someone has this proverb--nice thought for the day:

'Masters are for dogs'

*deep breath*

This particular topic touches a very raw nerve for me. I usually keep out of discussing my personal recovery and stick with providing information because it is "safer". But this topic deserves the input that I have. Especially knowing the frustration I have had for over 10 years now is being suffered by someone else.

I apologize for this being all over the map, knowing that is what will happen because I have different things to disclose and share that works for me.

Time is the big one. And patience. Both have been difficult for me to accept. I'm not joking when I say over 10 years either.

But the steps to get where I am today have also been pushed forward by stubborness and not letting "them" win either.

I too used to read A LOT and could quote from books on various subjects. My memory was excellent. That all went away after doing the programs and being in an abusive relationship based upon the programs.

I'm slowly crawling my way back to where I was before. Getting back to me is what I call it. I celebrate the small victories when they show up. I used to get frustrated with the small victories, they were "big enough" and then I realized they *were* big. So, when I could finally read an article from Vanity Fair and remember it I allowed myself to be thrilled. I started small though and built the endurance up. I now make a point of reading at least 1/2 hour a day. No exceptions. After over 10 years I can finally have at least 2 magazines going, two books and a couple projects along with my researching online and remember stuff. If I'm doing something that I know will be difficult for me to remember, I keep 3M in business using sticky notes. I use what is available now knowing that I have gotten this far and eventually I will get even further.

I lost these abilities in a subtle manner so it will take time for this to come back. Twice as long and then some. Especially now that I know what is going on. I don't feel as if I'm in a fog all the time.

Now some things that helped me in the recovery process was reading anything and everything I could get my hands on about manipulation, group dynamics and mental abuse. What I found over and over again was the similarities to severe manipulation in relationships. So, when I finally was in a place to go for therapy in the next step in healing I found someone that was a professional in dealing with severe relationship abuse. Cognitive Dissonance was the critical key to my recovery. Once I understood that and the types of therapy that help I could get over the "triggers" of what the programs did and understand that these skills I was learning I was actually "re-learning" the correct way. To me it ended up understanding that there are people that take up golfing without any instruction thinking that a video and watching other people is enough...not realizing that they don't know how to grip the club let alone set themselves up for the shot. Just because they were given the tools does not mean they really know how to use them. Going into therapy I had to spend about 2 years (weekly appointments) to get to the point where I could stop triggering and start healing. That only got me to the next onion layer but at least (to me) the therapy is progressing along far better. I'm to the point now that I will take medication. And that has been a huge god-send for me. My ability to think has improved tremendously (after my body adjusted to the chemicals). Because of the manipulation, cognitive dissonance and mixed messages I was receiving my "mind" chemically reacted and my body physically reacted. Having this go on for over 2 years (still under severe stress even after the relationship ended because of trying to fit back into society didn't work real well for me) really does a number on your chemical imbalances.

I looked at taking medicine as a sign of weakness. Until my therapist pointed out so well to me, if I was diabetic, would I deny my body the needed medicine? No I wouldn't. And I can clearly tell I'm doing better. To those in the programs and advocates of the programs I *am* a weak person. And this is information that will undoubtly turn up in a post or two in reply to me but at this point, I don't care. You want to know about what is going on with you. And I have information that will help. That's what matters at this point.

You will have a lot of difficulty finding someone that deals specifically with cult abuse. But you will not have difficulty finding someone that deals with abusive relationships. If you have to, search for someone that deals with abuse in the workplace. The coping and recovery techniques will be the same. And the first question I asked those that I interviewed was, "have you ever done est, The Forum or any programs put on by Werner Erhard & Associates or Landmark Education?". I had to go through about 3 people during the phone interview process until I got to the one that I have now. And she has been very patient with me. She has been successful in coming up with analogies that make dealing with the cult situation easier on me. Because to this day I will still shut down emotionally. Not as bad anymore...but it's still there.

I clearly remember all the frustration that I had when I realized 5+ years later I was still spouting jargon. One thing that I was told to do was take the jargon, write down as much of it as I could remember and then write out the meaning that was fabricated by the group and the actual *real* dictionary meaning. I used a couple of different dictionaries too to really understand that sometimes the words are appropriate and not jargon based.

For a long time I didn't write anything and limited my contact with people too. I felt that I had this big label on my forehead that said SUCKER and STUPID.

Alright, now that I have seriously jumped into the water...let me know if you have questions, suggestions or more you want to talk about.

I'm here...and you will get through this. You are still here and know that what happened isn't "right", which is a huge first step.

*hug*

-Pam

Pam,

Hug right back to you! Thank you so much for kind and compassionate post. Congratulations on all the progress. I've certainly felt the same things you have - regretting that progress comes in small victories, not soon enough, etc. When I finally realized that's the way it's going to be, I got pretty depressed, but then I would come out of it, and then go back into it. I've been writing my own experience and will take what you've written and consider it as I write more.

Thanks so much for sharing.

Hope

Hi Pam,

Good to see you are here :-)

This is a fascinating thread. I can relate to the PTSD symptoms and poor concentration post-Landmark.

I had other post-traumatic symptoms too – guilt and shame that I’d been ‘had’ by con-artists, anger and grieving for the lost time and money, depression and self-doubt, loss of confidence and self-esteem, and mood swings. Challenging something that I perceived as a valuable part of my personal belief system (that I am totally responsible for the creation of my own reality) rocked my psyche.

Like Elena says, it’s hard not to throw the baby out with the bathwater when you’re not clearly sure where the pearls of wisdom end and the bullshit starts. There’s something on the Andrew Cohen thread from corboy about distinguishing genuine spirituality from fake ‘enlightenment’. Or as they say in Zen, distinguishing a keen-eyed lion from a blind dog.

I am finding it useful to think about what corboy calls the ‘blind spots’ in our psyche that allow us to get hooked in by cults, and the sophisticated way the cults ~coach~ us into revealing our Achilles heel. Like Coz said (on the Tony Robbins thread), the ~coaches~ or salesmen weave a web of manipulation to extract our highest personal values and weaknesses and then ensnare us with their ~promises~ of ~breakthroughs~ in our vulnerable areas.

Apart from the obvious weaknesses of suggestibility, ignorance and naiveté about how cultic manipulation works, my own blind spots were my (quite mild) bi-polar highs and lows, my search for personal improvement, perfection or fulfilment, my search for a higher spiritual or philosophical ‘meaning’ to life than work and money, my anger at my mum and dad for their neglect of me as a child, my sense of being unfulfilled at work and in relationships, a lack of a good support network from friends and family, an absence of an intimate relationship with a ‘significant other’, and my general rebelliousness towards authority and the ‘establishment’.

This gave the cultic folk in Landmark (and all the other ‘paradigms’ I got involved in from Co-counselling to metaphysics to shamanism to Zen etc.) plenty of material with which to ~enrol~ me into their belief systems.

Chris