Hmm, I believe in God too, but I wouldn't go as far as to think that believing in God autmatically leads to noble intentions. (see other threads here about religious cults?). But I do not intend to go into a religious discussion here.

@Jack, I just haven't studied SOC or it's jargon. I will find some time to do so, maybe it helps me to understand better what Landmark is all about (or not). Probably when you hear about what goes on inside SOC, it's obvious, but I'm not there yet.

By the way - to keep this subject alive :wink: - I have remembered the jargon I was looking for a couple of days ago. "creating a clearing for someone to speak into" and "creating a clearing for integriy", and also something like "being the stand for the stand of someone". Something like that. Does anyone remember the exact phrases?

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Europe-girl

@Jack, I just haven't studied SOC or it's jargon. I will find some time to do so, maybe it helps me to understand better what Landmark is all about (or not). Probably when you hear about what goes on inside SOC, it's obvious, but I'm not there yet.

By the way - to keep this subject alive :wink: - I have remembered the jargon I was looking for a couple of days ago. "creating a clearing for someone to speak into" and "creating a clearing for integriy", and also something like "being the stand for the stand of someone". Something like that. Does anyone remember the exact phrases?

It's funny that you've picked two things that were direct lifts from scientology -- the ~clearing~ thing that "devolved" from the ~state of clear~ or the scientology ~communication~ stuff, and the ~creation~ bit that was the biggie in the Co$. ElRon's programs were all about ~creating~ whatever you want with a god-like imperative, and, conversely, the ability to "un-create" it or ~disappear~ it. There's a germ of truth in all this, certainly, but it's twisted into some kind of hokus-pokus silliness within the cults. (You can ~create~ parking spaces <tic> with your own intention and patience, though it doesn't have anything to do with magical powers and more just your willingness to wait for someone to leave.)


I believe the "being a stand for blah, blah, blah" is the re-worked Heiddeger stuff or maybe from Fernando Flores.

(I've put words between tildes (~~) to indicate jargon and not conventional usage.)



Ellen

Hey Ellen, thanks for your posting!
Can you tell me more about how the word "clearing" is being used in SOC? So I can put this in perspective.
I'm trying to remember whether or not the word "clearing" was used from the first courses on that I took, or whether it was introduced later. Maybe Werner just kept it in store for rainy days or picked it up somewhere along the line. :wink: Or maybe I didn't notice the use of this word until later.

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Europe-girl
Hey Ellen, thanks for your posting!
Can you tell me more about how the word "clearing" is being used in SOC? So I can put this in perspective.
I'm trying to remember whether or not the word "clearing" was used from the first courses on that I took, or whether it was introduced later. Maybe Werner just kept it in store for rainy days or picked it up somewhere along the line. :wink: Or maybe I didn't notice the use of this word until later.

Achieving a ~state of clear~ is the goal of scientologists. It's (supposedly) a mental state of clarity where one sees and understands a situation without being hindered by emotional factors or past experiences that might cloud or distort the picture. A ~clearing,~ at Landmark, is this elevated or superior spot of greater awareness. It probably contains elements of lots of "spiritual" practices, including the Zen Buddhism that Werner Erhard picked up from Alan Watts' radio programs. Nothing particularly exclusive to Landmark or est, just useful for (maybe) disabusing people of their prejudices, biases, and critical or judgmental attitudes. One thing all cults do is use various methods to disarm or disengage people's critical thought processes. They will buy time with anything that will suspend judgment so that they can better insert their own "programming."

Here are some of the words/concepts Werner Erhard "adopted" from scientology that are pretty much a direct lift and used in the same way:

Acknowledgment
Communication
Agreement
Responsibility
Cause
Source
Create
Disappear
Upset
Handle
Clear
Complete
Technology
Breakthrough

There are more but these are all I can think of at the moment. Initially, Werner Erhard used the "timeline" thing that involved past lives, which also came from L. Ron Hubbard.


Ellen

One piece of jargon that was used (and is still used) alot is the "being unreasonable". Landmark uses this in a very unresponsible and unethical manner in my opinion.

Landmark defines being unreasonable as stepping up and doing something when you could find a reason not to so you are not finding a reason.

It is used often in conjuction with "I want you to be unreasonable with yourself" which means "I want you to do something and not give me any excuses why you can't"

I often heard the sentence being used when someone said no to something and gave a (often valid) reason why they couldn't. I once heard a landmark forum leader berate an introduction leader about why they couldn't attend part of the landmark forum during a registration session for the advanced course telling them to "be unreasonable". I was horrified because the reason they couldn't make it was that they were going to a wedding and the landmark forum leader was telling them to be unreasonable.

@Elena
After I did my posting I took some time to start reading about the jargon in SOC. I can see the similarities. It's not that I don't believe it, it's just that I want to grasp it for myself. I asked you about the clearing thing because it seemed Landmark uses it differently, and I think they do. It's not like in COS a state of mind or whatever, but like a 'space' (also jargon) in which something can or cannot show up. But it's maybe a word Werner thought to have a nice ring to it and re-use it in a different way.
I understand now why Landmark had so many lawsuits against them from SOC. Why do other LGAT's not sew each other more then, since they all use the same "techniques"? From what I see for example Lifespring, PSI, SCA, they all do the same...?

@Sonnie-dee, yes! "being unreasenable", forgot that one too (!), and then of course: "I have an unreasonable request", ai ai ai.
When someone used those lines on you, it was hard to refuse...
Were you in Landmark when "The Listenings" started? Those were really the days of jargon and languaging beyond comprehension...

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Europe-girl
@Elena
After I did my posting I took some time to start reading about the jargon in SOC. I can see the similarities. It's not that I don't believe it, it's just that I want to grasp it for myself. I asked you about the clearing thing because it seemed Landmark uses it differently, and I think they do. It's not like in COS a state of mind or whatever, but like a 'space' (also jargon) in which something can or cannot show up. But it's maybe a word Werner thought to have a nice ring to it and re-use it in a different way.
I understand now why Landmark had so many lawsuits against them from SOC. Why do other LGAT's not sew each other more then, since they all use the same "techniques"? From what I see for example Lifespring, PSI, SCA, they all do the same...?

My guess would be that they know too much information would be revealed that would harm the plaintifs in the same way it would harm the defendants -- they'd all be tarred with the same brush as they are all playing the same game. They're all guilty of copying and plagerizing each other. It would be awfully difficult to sort out the original material, if there is any, in this mess.

I don't know of any lawsuit by the Co$ against Landmark or est or Werner Erhard. They would look like fools in court. They know that. That's why they just use the law to make threats and attempt to intimidate people. The last thing they want is the exposure that a real court case would bring.


Ellen

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elena

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Europe-girl
@Elena
After I did my posting I took some time to start reading about the jargon in SOC. I can see the similarities. It's not that I don't believe it, it's just that I want to grasp it for myself. I asked you about the clearing thing because it seemed Landmark uses it differently, and I think they do. It's not like in COS a state of mind or whatever, but like a 'space' (also jargon) in which something can or cannot show up. But it's maybe a word Werner thought to have a nice ring to it and re-use it in a different way.
I understand now why Landmark had so many lawsuits against them from SOC. Why do other LGAT's not sew each other more then, since they all use the same "techniques"? From what I see for example Lifespring, PSI, SCA, they all do the same...?

My guess would be that they know too much information would be revealed that would harm the plaintifs in the same way it would harm the defendants -- they'd all be tarred with the same brush as they are all playing the same game. They're all guilty of copying and plagerizing each other. It would be awfully difficult to sort out the original material, if there is any, in this mess.

I don't know of any lawsuit by the Co$ against Landmark or est or Werner Erhard. They would look like fools in court. They know that. That's why they just use the law to make threats and attempt to intimidate people. The last thing they want is the exposure that a real court case would bring.
Ellen

I wonder if Erhard is still scared of COS, or if he is just camping out in the Caymans for fun, enjoying the millions?

Werner Erhard on Larry King, w/ Heber Jentzsch, president of Scientology - Harry Rosenberg, Erhard's brother, calls in by phone during the live show:

[www.holysmoke.org]

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Were you in Landmark when "The Listenings" started? Those were really the days of jargon and languaging beyond comprehension...

I started with landmark in the late 90's and left a few years ago. I was on staff when it went through the registration vs enrollment change and the language went through another restructuring then and it a horrible time, everyone was getting coaching left right and centre about what they were saying

All the staff were having to remember huge documents of information, staff had staff/seminar leader conferences where we were going through the documents and having to show we had learnt them fully (ie standing up in front of everyone and saying what we were taught to say)

It was also during this time we started getting some of the legal agreements about what we could and couldn't disclose and what we could and couldn't do as careers if we left landmark education

The staff conferences were often times of humilation for staff in front of all the other regional staff. The weekends were led by forum leaders and on one ocassion harry and joan rosenberg. The staff had to pass a pile of measures or were told they would lose their jobs.

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It was also during this time we started getting some of the legal agreements about what we could and couldn't disclose and what we could and couldn't do as careers if we left landmark education

sonnie_dee,
what careers were you NOT permitted to do if you left landmark? Were there any specific careers that seemed favorable to landmark for a person to pursue? If these questions are included in what you cannot answer due to the legal restraints, I understand. I am stunned that landmark would actually place a legal restriction on what a person can or cannot pursue as a career!