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Klemmer & Associates
Posted by: Rswinters ()
Date: May 13, 2007 07:23AM

I have been doing alot of questoning, and reading to help me sort out the mess of Klemmers brainwashing that I chose to apply to my life.

Here is an equation that I believe addresses the overall philosphy of what I am hearing as the LGAT's goal to create in peoples lives.

Humanism + Hedonism = non-judgement minus the accountability for how my behavior is not harming another.

Klemmer and LGAT's create people who are unwilling to look at their own behavior that is being unwelcomed by another in a relationship.

When the focus is kept on everything else except on operating within relational limits with other people who may not always see things the same way.

This creates very judgemental people who are blind to their own judgement as narcissism generates within a person what I believe is the result of apply humanism and hedonistic philosphy to our lives

I believe we are all born into a narcistic mindset, and its our responsiblity to grow out of this mindset as we grow up into maturity.

I also believe this is why Klemmer & Associates as well as the rest of the LGAT's are on the rise.

People do not want to give up being narcistic and will do everything in their power to avoid facing this ugly human trait that needs to be addressed in each one of us individually and mature into relational beings who respect relational limits and boundaries in our lives.

These seminars in my opinion show this narcistic mindset and how entrenched it has been, and is trying to become in our society.

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Klemmer & Associates
Posted by: Rswinters ()
Date: May 15, 2007 02:33AM

Humanism + Hedonism = non-judgement minus the accountability for how my behavior is not harming another.

should read as follows

Humanism + Hedonism = non-judgement minus the accountability for how my behavior is harming another.

sorry, typo

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Klemmer & Associates
Posted by: Rswinters ()
Date: May 16, 2007 02:23AM

Klemmer & Associates seems to be a company that has developed a very strong outer layer of protection from the truth of how destructive their seminars are.
By using their loyal participants to do their dirty work. Such as protesting this site as I have read on wikipedia that seems to be afraid on allowing for negative experiences that some have had to be shared freely.
Thanks Rick for a web site where both the positive and negative can be shared within the confines of being shared based on facts, and personal experiences.
Klemmer teaches non-resistance, and non-judgment.
I challenge that as being true. All one needs to do is read, read, and read. Especially the pain in these posts and the arrogance of these companies, and loyal brainwashed participants are inflicting on people in their lives
What I have read on this site alone has opened my eyes to the lies.
Klemmer & Associates has developed a very snazzy company that has established itself with a good reputation by using very controlled means of blocking negative publicity to be heard by the common person.
The negative aspect is out there, just harder to find with how this company has used its participants to contain this bad news from surfacing to the public. While getting to use they are not accountable, nor responsible for how its participants utilize the tools presented in seminars.
Talk about socially being irresponsible for how strongly you influence people.
Unless of course its when someone is sharing a positive. Then Klemmer will encourage this sharing with all their might and will also take the credit for it.
Just don't try to hold them accountable for something negative. You will have a never-ending debate that gets stuck in a loop with its participants who will attack you with the mindless garble that keeps a person from taking personal accountability for their part in a relational conflict.
Based on most of the posts on this website. I am not alone in this frustration with brainwashed participants in LGAT's

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Klemmer & Associates
Posted by: Rswinters ()
Date: May 16, 2007 03:19AM

Remember all. I have made all my message posts about Klemmer & Associates as a former participant that has taken all their seminars and even was a strong supporter as I staffed several of their seminars.
So, I am not coming from a place of ignorance. But of one from personal experience and seeing very hard to ignore patterns with common themes in people dealing with these companies and those who choose to take their seminars.
I was blind for two years as I chose to be led blindly by Klemmer. Now I see, and now I am ashamed.
Now I am choosing to be just as strong with uncovering the lies in Klemmer as I was a strong supporter of them when I was blind to the destruction in this companies philosophy.

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Klemmer & Associates
Posted by: felixcatski ()
Date: May 31, 2007 10:47PM

Just a tongue-in-cheek observation to you, Rswintwers. It may be awhile till you lose the jargon. ......" I am not coming from a place of ignorance".... typical Klem-jargon :)

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Klemmer & Associates
Posted by: SaneAgain ()
Date: June 01, 2007 12:24AM

I suggest you give this article to your friends to read.


It describes the room setup on landmark education. If Klemmer is using the

confrontation, group dynamics, strictly controlled environment, limited bathroom and meal breaks to produce a "breakthrough"
techniques then they are VERY likely to be using the exact same room setup that most of these groups seem to use.

This should have the following effect on your friends:
1. They will realise that Klemmer are not unique and do not have any real secrets.
2. They will hopefully wonder why a physical environment has to be so tightly, precisely controlled if the value of their work is in their teachings - especially when many different groups all over the world use the exact same environment to produce the exact same breakthroughs.
3. They will read about the power dynamic present in the room setup and its effect on participants.

This won't solve the problem, but may create the necessary seed of doubt in their minds.

The group I was involved with has no relation with Landmark, is at the other end of the world in Africa and yet the room is exactly the same down to the last detail of distance between chairs, arrangement of pens on tables, etc.

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Klemmer & Associates
Posted by: Rswinters ()
Date: June 01, 2007 04:04AM

Okay, here is a good example of technique used by Klemmer and all the rest of the LGAT's and what gets created experientially within their seminars.

Here is Klemmers techniques explained with a card trick.

This card trick will be hard to show you without needing to give trick away in explanation. The trick is in with some very dazzling sly of hand along with very subtlety manipulating, and controlling the outcome of answers to questions asked to leave the participant watching trick for first time with the impression that he chose his responses out of his free will. Which is far from the truth, and the clearly identified and defined answer that is being sought out by the card magician is looking for before any communications begin with performing the card trick.

This trick works only because of sly of hand, deception, manipulation, and twisting words, and answers to arrive at a specific place where participant is believing there was none of these tactics used on them. Actually the first time this card trick was done on me, I was amazed and dazzled. Then when I found out how card trick works by playing tricks on the participants mind. After I found out the secret to the trick, and have polished a really good technique of showing this card trick to people. I am amazed at how people are not able to understand how the trick works in their minds. I actually have had some people who I tried, and tried to explain the trick to them and they still did not understand it. Finally I would walk them through card trick holding the deck of cards up with bottom card facing them and walk through trick again. These people tend to be blown away at thinking they can get the card named at the end to be different than the bottom card.

Here is the card trick.

To set up the card trick you have a participant watch you shuffle cards numerous times, and you can even have them shuffle cards. All that is needed to be done for trick is to have the final part of shuffle be your knowing what card is on bottom of deck. What I use is both, with the last shuffle consisting of this maneuver. I cut deck with half in each hand. Right before I shuffle cards together. I make sure to see the bottom card of the part of deck in my right hand. When I shuffle cards together. Its done in a manner that the bottom card of my right hand is shuffled in a manner its on the bottom of deck. I then without handling deck in a manner that even remotely shows bottom of deck place in my back pants pocket without looking at deck in anyway as I am placing my pocket. I also at times pick a bystander and place deck of cards in their back pocket.

Okay that's the set up of card trick with a participant. Now comes the part of the trick that I am comparing to Klemmer & Associates and the rest of Large Group Awareness Programs operate and how they set us up by showing us how powerful our belief systems affect us. Then commence to exchange our core belief system with their own belief system. While doing it in a manner that leaves a person feeling like they arrived at this new belief system by their own choice. So Here is where this card trick and Klemmer & Associates and other LGAT'S operate in common.

Back to trick. When I do this trick on people. I have learned to really make it dazzling. I tell them that they are going to name a card, and I will pick it out of the deck in my pocket, or a bystanders pocket without looking. Are you ready? Usually the person is finding it hard to believe your going to do what is said.

I am not able to explain this trick without giving the trick away in explaining it though. Because this card trick you must experience to be fooled by the trick (Wow, this sounds familiar in what I am told about seminars going in). Seriously though, I must give you the trick up front without being able to do the card trick on you for you to experience being deceived, and manipulated without realizing it.

I will tell you the trick the same way that I have had to explain trick to some people who can't figure it out by having me show them the trick numerous times. I find this amazing that some people are unable to figure out trick after seeing it done 3 or 4 times in a row. They are still amazed at trick.

Then instead of just stating how trick works. This is what I do.

I do the set up the same, but this time instead of placing cards in my pocket or another's pocket. What I do is I hold up the deck of cards with the bottom of deck facing participant. For the sake of explanation. Lets say the bottom card is the number 5 of hearts.

Remember this is done initially without doing this part of having the bottom card being seen by the participant. Which in their mind the deck has been shuffled so much that the bottom card is an unknown to anyone.

I will perform a dialog here to show you how the communication goes during the trick. Remember: Bottom on deck has a 5 of hearts.

Me: okay, pick 2 of the four suites.
Participant: spades, and diamonds

Me: okay, what 2 did you not say?
Participant: clubs, and hearts.

Me: Pick one of those 2 suites.
Participant: clubs

Me: which one did you not say?
Participant: hearts

Me: pick 5 hearts that will be easy to remember.
Participant: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10

Me: okay, pick 5 more hearts that will be easy to remember.
Participant: Ace, King, Queen, Jack, 9

Me: Okay, pick 3 more that will be easy to remember.
Participant: 3, 5, 7

Me: Okay, pick 2 of those 3 hearts.
Participant: 3,7

Me: Which one of those 3 did you not say?
Participant: 5

Okay, so you chose 5 of hearts. I will find that card without looking. When I do it the first time, and not when I am trying to reveal the trick after trick is not gotten by the participant. I really add drama to it by making it appear that it is a tough card to find. I act like I am struggling feeling the card in my pocket, and delay it as long as needed for effect.

Then I act like it appears out of no where and pull it out to the amazement of the participants mind.

Believe it or not. Even when I show some participants this trick and even do it with them seeing the bottom card of the deck being held in front of their face. They don't understand how I was able to get them to end up saying that card in the end.

I then have to go into a very frustrating conversation of how I manipulated their mind to believe they where picking the card while the reality is that I picked it, and manipulated their mind by very slippery manipulation of communications with them.

This is how Klemmer & Associates, and all the rest of the LGAT's get participants hooked into buying into a philosphy, mindset, belief system, or whatever you want to call it.

I call it this. Klemmer & Associates had the 5 of hearts on the bottom the deck from the beginning of my enrolling in Klemmers seminars. After going through all 5 seminars that Klemmer holds. I have found the 5 of hearts philosphy also known as The Secret is a destructive philosphy for my life.

I see Klemmer & Associates the same as I see this someone performing this card trick.

A master at deception, mind control, and brainwashing.

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Klemmer & Associates
Posted by: Rswinters ()
Date: June 01, 2007 04:20AM

Its simply to get a participant to say the card on the bottom of deck without being conscious of being manipulated by me to get them to say that card.

I have polished this to a fine art. People who have never seen the trick are always amazed.

It is only the critical thinkers that catch on fast. Even most of them have a hard time figuring it out fast.

Because they know they are being manipulated. They just can't put a finger on how I am doing it.

In time they figure it out, as I patiently work with them to understand the trick.

I don't show the trick with an intention of not revealing to participant how I manipulated them to do the trick.

This card trick is the best example of how I was manipulated by Klemmer & Associates in their seminars.

Klemmer & Associates bottom card philosphy is not one I want in my life. For the past two years I was dazzled by Klemmers philosphy in my life.

Until it blew up and brought more destruction than imaginable in my life.

At the core of my belief system there was always a contradiction that I felt going through the seminars. I ignored this gut level contradiction occuring in me.

Now I am sorting out the mess. I should have paid attention to the deep level contradictions in me during my Klemmer experience.

I knew I was being manipulated in my psyche, and I chose to keep playing.

I am responsible, and Klemmer is accountable.

I hope this will steer many from attending Klemmer & Associates seminars.

Unless you want to be manipulated, and brainwashed.

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Klemmer & Associates
Posted by: Rswinters ()
Date: June 23, 2007 04:39AM

I found a post that I wanted to bring up as I say something on this matter.

This situation where I was forced to accept an ongoing illegal matter that is still going on as far as I know.

Here is the conflict. Polygmy is illegal in our nation. It is a crime and is punishable by our nations court system.

Klemmer & Associates created a circumstance where I was forced to comply with not judging this mans behavior which is illegal.

I should not be struggling with the emotional battle of reporting this to the legal authorities for them to deal with. I am struggling with this too much to do so. Yet, the fact that I am even in this place emotionally, and mentally is a direct result of Klemmer & Associates and what is dealt with in their seminars.

I am a Christian and in my church. There is a standing rule that if something is revealed as being illegal. It will be reported to the proper authorities to deal with.

I am not talking about small debateable things. I am talking about point blank violaitons of the law.

Klemmer would have me be non-resistant, and non-judgemental.

This is a emotional conflict that Klemmer has no right creating. Yet it was created in me and the many other participants who saw this ongoing violation of our nations law.

Okay folks lets get this cleared out of the way before I explain what I am going to share here. I chose to attend seminar, I chose to sign waivers, I chose to participate, I chose, I chose. The list could go on.

I am not removing my responsibility here.

When I went through the second seminar called Advance Leadership Training I was placed in a situation where I was teamed up with a buddy for the whole four days where I had to work through a strong negative judgement I held for this guy.

So we are on the same page. This was my judgement that I held. This man was illegally married to two women in Utah with about 10 kids between the two. His first wife was also in attendance at this seminar and was sharing her struggles with her husband choice of getting married to a second women. This has been the situation for years at this point in time.

I struggled with this mans choice to break the laws of the land and ignore them by living what is very clearly a illegal lifestye in our nation.

Yet, I was on the emotional ride of these seminars and took on the challenge to not be in judgement of this mans behavior. I did arrive at a place of loving and accepting this man as a human being and we are still good friends now. Although I still hold my judgement of his illegal behavior. I just learned to love the man and and not his behavior.

Well, to expand on this. When I went to the 3rd seminar that is 5 days. This man not only was in attendance, but he brought both of his wives to the seminar.

The man and the second wife were eating up this non-judgemental stuff and trying to get his first wife to embrace this non-judgemental state. She was really struggling with loving her husband as she was his first marriage, and at the same time was struggling with being in a marriage with a husband who has two legal wives (I guess in Utah they know how to get around the legality of it being agianst the law)

The first wife was in extreme turmoil around trying to embrace not being in judgement of her marriage reality. She was really struggling with this.

I had some gut feelings which contradicted what I was hearing in these seminars. Yet, I kept riding the emotional ride all the way through all of Klemmer seminars.

Now I am facing how I was not listening to my gut, and that is where I was wrong. Klemmer has all the whistles and bells to influence you into their mindset that is hard to say no to.

If you don't agree with them. Your being not teachable, your being judgemental. and the response list is never ending in how your wrong for not embracing Klemmer mindset without out question.

I was listening to Brian Klemmer say to a group of volunteer staff that I was a part of that he only hires and keeps staff that will choose to operate with no resistance to the companies requests that he makes of his staff.

All others are fired, or they quit and leave.

I will share more of my experience in Klemmer later. I have several more experiences that did not sit will in me that I want to share in time with you.

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Klemmer & Associates
Posted by: Rswinters ()
Date: June 23, 2007 04:45AM

Here is the link to topic thread that I cut and pasted from.

I wish we could combine these two topics. They are the same, and gets confusing when posting to one or the other.

this thread is the one that has won out in being the most read though.

Here is link to other thread.


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