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formerimpactgrad
Find a post where I have personally attacked you or someone else. I have vehemently attacked arguments but my guess is that you would have a hard time actually finding a post where I have personally attacked anyone. Unless you're referring to my "20 pieces of silver" statement which I believe is quite accurate since your involvement with recruitment in LGATs is very much like selling your fellow man down the river for a relatively small personal benefit (whether financial of otherwise). Do you have anything that you can reference or are you just making blind statements again?

Oh yeah. You were the one who called me "Judas." If you don't see that as a personal attack, full of vitriolic, then I doubt you'd see anything as a pesonal attack.

By the way, you should know that I have never made a single dime off any training anywhere. So, not only was your attack personal, it was mistaken.

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exImpact
I have only personally attacked the stances of those LGAT apologists who come here trying to run their number, spewing their lies and contrived bull in a place that is set up to help people get out of these LGAT's and hopefully return and rebuild their lives. Can't really attack a position without seemingly attacking the one who expressed it. This is a practical matter you are addressing in an impractical, self-serving fashion. This is an "anti" board, so don't come in here thinking you will be treated in an equitable way if you are an LGAT insider who comes into the forums knowingly breaking the ground rules by peddling their LGAT fueled self interests.

If there is a moderator that is more interested in enforcing the rules than slamming LGATs, they have their priorities confused. It is a bit naive to suggest such a possibility.

So, since LGAT apologists aren't really "people" in the spirit of this board, it's OK to violate Board Rules and personally attack them?

Come on. You must see the problem with this (and so must the mods.)

And, I was unaware that this is an "anti" board. I thought it was just a Message Board, which implies debate. Mods: am I wrong here? Is this an "anti-LGAT" board. Is this board meant to be a one-dimensional slam on LGATs?

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Impacted
Boonetahoe,

Not sure how to respond to this post; have many mixed feelings.

1) For whatever personal attacks you've felt, for one, I'd like to apologize. (Mostly because that works in my life these days, and is so in contrast to how your grads come out of your training. Mostly they don't know how to respond to an apology; nor would they ever offer one, at least not in a training room.)

Wow. I appreciate that. Since you're anonymous, you have no ulterior motive to restrain yourself or apologize. That means a lot.

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2) I like how you forward the debate here (not with every part of every post -- but in the ways you do, I find value in gaining clarity in my own feelings about what I've experienced over the years I have spent around Hans, Sally, Steve, Pam, Bruce, Dorothy, David, Duane, John, Mike, Pamela, JJ, Justin, Analee, and a host of other whacked-out "trainers" (read: unqualified/unable to get a real job.)

Of course, I wouldn't agree with your characterization of all of these people. I know a lot of trainers personally and they're no more "whacked out" than you or I.

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3) I wonder if you can offer any criticisms of Harmony/GL at all? Anything not working for you there? Any processes you'd like to see evolve?

(I hear Impact has watered down Feedback Arcs and Lifeboat because "we're attracting more evolved lightworkers from around hte planet and don't need to do what we've always done . . .")

That's a great question. I had to stop and think a while on this.

I can answer, but I'm afraid that you and I may be the only people monitoring this board who can provide a worthwhile give-and-take debate on the merits of the component parts of an LGAT training. I'm afraid that the respondents would be along the lines of "you're a bunch of crazies and all LGATs should be burned to the ground."

So, let's PM on this question.

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4) Does that kind of talk lead you to believe Impact is a cult, or not?

I do believe that Impact is a cult. Obviously, I don't think that all LGATs are cults (I consider an LGAT to be any training that uses an experiential model to delve into life questions.)

I would differentiate with Impact because it seems to be a charismatic leader-driven organization with one family apparently controlling and profiting from the training itself. That would seem to meet the dictionary definition of a "cult."

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5) To be fair, I'll challenge Former and Ex to say if looking back on it all, they can find ANY thing of value in all their training experiences. I'll take a risk and say, I do cherish some moments in those trainings. Really amazing experiences. And to be clear: I do not believe the costs (not so much financial as emotional/psychological/personal) to be anywhere near worth it for those times. Nor do I recommend these trainings.

Interestingly, I was reading Landmark Forum's Wikipedia site last night (or one of them.) It outlines the several studies that have been done regarding large group awareness trainings. Of course, we all know how skewed and limited studies can be, but here's the synopsis:

1. Evaluating a Large Group Awareness Training: A Longitudinal Study of Psychosocial Effects. 1990. Conclusion: attending "The Forum" had no lasting effects, positive or negative.

2. The Talent Foundation study. Within two years of participating (in Landmark,) individuals showed higher levels of self-esteem, motivation and increased confidence.

3. DYG Study. 90-95% of attendees reported "value" in taking the Landmark Forum course.

4. Harris Interactive. One-third of Landmark attendees surveyed reported increased income after the training. 96% of those surveyed said that they received "great value" from the experience.

In any case, good luck with getting other board participants to see that this is a multi-dimensional debate. They seem committed to damning the trainings, regardless.

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6) My first experience of you here was responding to your advice to NOTImpacted to "do the Impact Trainings" to "save her relationships with her family."

Surely you see at least some aspects of Impact, TITish ones at the very least, to be cult-like. You claim to know Hans and Sally are criminals, as are others there. They have a clear record of not paying bills, employees, the IRS, etc, etc. They (as far as I know) have made no efforts to clean up their the messes, broken relationships, dishonesty with anyone, not even close family members, former loyal employees, former participants. No effort. They "live a higher law."

So, pardon my emotionality here, but, What the hell are you thinking recommending THAT? How could you? Do you really not get the perspective here for those of us who just can't understand that way of being you show forth? (Sorry, "don't get your come-from?) It sure looks like recruiting people into an LGAT to me. Even if it's not your own. And it appears as a strategy to do that "Impact really bad, but not so bad not to do it, Harmony better, so come here" is the LOUD, albiet implicit, message.

I never mentioned GLF in that context. Really, I was just giving her the same advice I'd give a friend in that same situation.

So, Impact is freaky and you stand the chance of getting sucked in to something really weird if you participate there. That's always been the case. I just don't have as strong a "gag reflex" as the rest of you do regarding Hans and Sally and their kingdom.

In other words, if you were to rate Impact on your "stay-away-o-meter" you might rate it a 10. I would probably rate it an 8. So, with family relationships in the balance and this thing becoming a point of separation between siblings, my advice would be to go ahead and do it and just be really careful not to get sucked into the cult. (You know as well as I do that you can do the basic Lifespring training part of Impact, and probably TIT One, and not be a Kool-aid drinking zealot.)

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7) The videos are creepy. Imagine watching a dozen people on video defend David Koresh and you might know how I and others here feel watching yours. I, for one, literally wanted to puke. Leaves me feeling sick to my stomach. Really.

I definitely see how you might feel that way. A lot of fervency is expressed and (from outside that experience) that level of passion can look looney.

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8) So GLF has hired Bruce (and thus, Dorothy and Layla Soloman).

I could say more, but let's leave it as, "Like energy attracts like energy," "Birds of a feather flock together," "criminals tend to associate with other criminals," "you will get what you deserve."

Perhaps you should have checked with some law enforcement officials, before hiring the likes of him.

For those who don't know; Bruce, Dorothy and their completely disfunctional/seemingly psychotic daughter Layla were old Lifespring grads/staff/trainers -- Layla has claimed to have been Hans' small group leader at Lifespring -- then Bruce worked for Hans at Impact around Liftoffs 40 to 69 or so, when he was scheduled to train a Lift-off weekend, but enrolled all the staff for that weekend into starting Rising Star (leaving the Impact trainees waiting in the lobby with no trainers or staff there for their weekend). Rising Star became vision-works, had centers in Denver, Washington State, SLC, and elsewhere, and went bankrupt earlier this year.

Remember "results don't lie."

His are both criminal (something you claimed GLF was free of) and disgusting in ways that were I to post here, I might risk being accused of a personal attack.

Let's just say one good question to ask Bruce, is one of Dorothy's favorites to ask Quest trainees: HEY, Bruce Solomon -- Who did you choose to get FAT at?

That's the first I've heard of criticism of Bruce and Dorothy. I wish you could be more specific. For example, I don't see anything in your reporting that would indicate criminality.

Something of note regarding Great Life: it's an inclusive culture. It's not a group that jumps to exclude anyone. So, whereas Impact has (as you know, in the past) kept a running list of people who aren't welcome there -- Great Life has no such list. When Bruce and Dorothy went looking for a home, I have no trouble believing that Great Life would accept them.

Likewise regarding Steve and Pamela Juback. I don't know what there reasons were regarding all the decisions they've made, but they haven't taken advantage of anyone (remotely) that I'm aware of. Quite the contrary. So, unless they're committing some gravely anti-social act or unless they're committing crimes, Great Life would probably accept them with open arms.

I think that the "birds of a feather" analogy breaks down when you have an inclusive culture like Great Life. It's like saying that you must be as crazy as Hans and Sally because you're both Utahns and Americans.

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I'm sorry Boonetahoe, but I really can't write about this stuff without feeling disgusted.

I hope you do see the light someday, and to the degree the intensify of the feelings some of us have about this stuff has slowed down your progress toward that, I again apologize.

I hope that I see the light someday soon, too.

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But come on man. You are a bright guy. This (meaning your experiences with Impact, Hans, etc) really cannot be working for you and everyone you claim it is, as well as you seem to me at least, to be fighting to convince us it is.

Sorry. I don't know another way to see it.

The training was a huge turning point in my life (and Hans was my trainer -- grimace) and that was many, many years ago. I can't deny that it has been a part of creating outstanding results for me.

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Till then, if you don't mind, I will keep you, and everyone who may be subjected to Bruce Solomon's insanity (and that of all the other "trainers" on the planet) in my heart-felt prayers.

That certainly can't hurt!

Thanks,

BT

Arrogant Condescension

The exchange of today’s posts has buoyed my soul after a period of dealing with oppression from a few Impact Life Mastery Training (LMT--formerly TIT) folks and their arrogant, condescending, all knowing attitudes. LGAT B.S. is so malignant by infectiously spreading its evil influence to non-trainees, and those former trainees who don’t want any more of it. I am thankful for the posts of those who humbly state what the long lasting effects LGAT (specifically Impact) has been for them. This confirms that there is HOPE. My fondest wish is to find a way to bring all LGAT participants to the reality of what this stuff REALLY does to folks. All the light and love stuff gets lost in the arrogant condescension resulting from the concentrated LGAT pride training. So much for false, and vain and foolish training.

Hopeful

So Hopeful, did Saint Germaine and Archangel Michael finally look up the word "TIT" and tell Hans that is was an inappropriate abbreviation for the cult that was solely responsible for bringing the world out of darkness and into the light? Sorry let me rephrase for accuracy: THE cult that is responsible for empowering humans out of the illusion of darkness so that they may use their divine, God powers for the purposes of light and love?

I'm glad they finally caught on, it took them long enough, but it is still damn generic. The divine creativity well must be dry over there. Nonetheless, the "Life Mastery Training" is much better than "Trainers In Training", or the "Freedom And Goodness" training or the "Radiant And Peaceful Enterprise" or the "Amazing Savior Society" or the "Love And Mastery Experience"
or the "Farcical And Ridiculous Training". Any way you spell it, it's still "Michael And Germaine's Incompetent Cult"!

(they haven't changed the name on the website yet)

Counterfeit Choice and Impact Philosophy

Impact Trainings qualifies as a religion on many grounds, but it can also be viewed as a philosophy, or better yet as the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. Herein is a great deception. Many persons enroll in Impact because they have been victims of unrighteous control and desire to “be at choice” and take a look at their life they say and enjoy true freedom. After a surprisingly short time however, they come under the control of cunning and greedy virtual strangers through the deceptive LGAT techniques of hypnosis and mind control and become like puppets on a string, enjoying the supposed fraudulent freedom of hanging suspended by the puppet master/trainers, while having lost true freedom of choice. Like drug use, the feeling is temporarily good, but taken in the long term, havoc results.

To take away a persons agency, or power of choice, is a serious matter. To take away that agency and delude the person deprived into thinking that they still have the unfettered power of choice is
sinister and diabolical and surely a capital crime.

Hopeful

Ex,

>>or the "Freedom And Goodness" training or the "Radiant And Peaceful Enterprise" or the "Amazing Savior Society" or the "Love And Mastery Experience" or the "Farcical And Ridiculous Training". Any way you spell it, it's still "Michael And Germaine's Incompetent Cult"! <<<

THANKS for this. I have not laughed so hard in years.

How about calling it:

"Heaven And Nature's Sanctuary AND Spiritual Abundance Love and Light Yippie! 'Soulful, Shining, Heavenly Intense Training?'

:)

LOVE you guys. Really. Great stuff this week.

Other than an appreciation for Yanni and John Denver (and a few others I'll PM you about), there's not much I retain as positive from those trainings. Just trying (based on results) to see if Boone could be critical at all, about ANY thing.

Ah, well. Life is good. This has been a really terrific day in so many ways.

God Bless,

--------Ed

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boonetahoe

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formerimpactgrad
Find a post where I have personally attacked you or someone else. I have vehemently attacked arguments but my guess is that you would have a hard time actually finding a post where I have personally attacked anyone. Unless you're referring to my "20 pieces of silver" statement which I believe is quite accurate since your involvement with recruitment in LGATs is very much like selling your fellow man down the river for a relatively small personal benefit (whether financial of otherwise). Do you have anything that you can reference or are you just making blind statements again?

Oh yeah. You were the one who called me "Judas." If you don't see that as a personal attack, full of vitriolic, then I doubt you'd see anything as a pesonal attack.

By the way, you should know that I have never made a single dime off any training anywhere. So, not only was your attack personal, it was mistaken.

Can you actually quote the post where you claim I called you Judas? The 20 pieces of silver reference can apply to any kind of benefit. In your case its probably arrogance and ego. That's what it usually is with Trainers...

For the record, I never actually called you Judas, you're lying again...

Jason, to answer the whole "anti" question I will post this answer to one of your previous posts:

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Vic-Luc
and lastly, did you read the title of this website?

"The Rick A. Ross Institute for destructive cults, controversial groups and movements."

This really isn't a place for a pro-LGAT movement. It's like walking into a Muslim temple assuming you can find some people willing to convert to Christinaity.

If you haven't gotten by now that this isn't a "pro" site, you never will. You have a stubborn ego dude.

So, you claim you have never made a dime off of the trainings, huh? Let's see those financial records. As formerimpact grad has said, words are cheap. I also want to know what unbiased, third party was in charge of those studies and statistics you mentioned. Where is your data and your evidence. Lets see it. I get the feeling that your claims largely go unchallenged in your line of work. Your profession, position and status does not promote such mental stimulus and growth among your peers. Most of your trainees may take everything you have to say at face value, but you can't get away with that here. You are naive to think that you can.

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boonetahoe
And, I was unaware that this is an "anti" board. I thought it was just a Message Board, which implies debate. Mods: am I wrong here? Is this an "anti-LGAT" board. Is this board meant to be a one-dimensional slam on LGATs?

Um, LOL, dude. I mean, DUH, it is only a debate if we have both a con and a pro voice discussing a topic. You can come to an anti-board and be a pro and still have the board be an anti-place. It is not a difficult concept to comprehend.

edit: and PS Ed, I can't listen to Yanni or Denver or Neil Diamond or any of that crap now without getting sick. Even the Rocky Theme, the Hallelujah Chorus and a few other classics I used to like just...fall flat now. Of course, if that had been all that Impact took from me, I would be dancing naked in the street right now singing Hallelujah!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2007 07:24PM by exImpact.