A frequent poster on another forum for people who were verbally and psychologically abused committed suicide several days ago. I had corresponded with him off the board a few times after he plugged Landmark Forum. After a couple emails, he stopped corresponding, and I didn't really post on either that board or privately, but I did go back from time to time to read the posts.

When I saw that he had committed suicide, I immediately wondered if there was a link to his participation in LE. He was on meds for a psychological disorder, and he was really trying everything possible to remedy his situation. I would assume LE had a great impact on him or else he wouldn't have signed up for multiple seminars.

I was sort of the odd man out at that board because my verbal abuse came from my doctor involved in LE while with most of the others there it came from their spouse. So, when I wrote about coercive persuasion, covert abuse, manipulation and LE tactics, my posts were usually met with silence. There was a little interest last week when I asked if anyone knew if this person was still involved in LE. Someone had replied that he had taken "weekend seminars" from April through October 2005, and told me it was a "big risk" to link his suicide with this organization. The initial interest in what LE does has faded, though many are still wondering why this man committed suicide. It didn't make sense. Some wondered if he had stopped his meds.

This has led me to wonder just how many people suffer psychotic breaks, worse depression or anxiety, and even commit suicide as a result of their participation with LE. They themselves might not put the two together, let alone people who don't understand what LE actually does to people.

I feel very sorry that some one has to take there own life to escape the pressures of this life but i hope you do not feel any guilt for his actions... It was not you fault and you did corresponde which is usually a great help to people that need friendship...
a lot of people that pressure people to conform are usually looking for the people that are easily influenced and in this day and age of technology we are over educating people to the extent of causing the week of mind, a burden they cannot handle..the strong of mind lack the ability to handle the physical burdens of society and the ignorant of heart destroy both very easily...
people with a good heart get destroyed by all types but mostly by the ignorant that think they have the answer and no one has a mind...
i'm afraid i fit into the fool catergory and just dont listen to none...it makes life very easy for me and people just disregard me as an idiot...the ones that really know me are fairly quiet about me and my life but hey there the best friends i could ever have and would commit the greatest crimes to protect me...so it pays some times to act the fool and escape the garbage that is in this world...at least people dont force themselves to be a friend of a fool...

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Hope
A frequent poster on another forum for people who were verbally and psychologically abused committed suicide several days ago. I had corresponded with him off the board a few times after he plugged Landmark Forum. After a couple emails, he stopped corresponding, and I didn't really post on either that board or privately, but I did go back from time to time to read the posts.

When I saw that he had committed suicide, I immediately wondered if there was a link to his participation in LE. He was on meds for a psychological disorder, and he was really trying everything possible to remedy his situation. I would assume LE had a great impact on him or else he wouldn't have signed up for multiple seminars.

I was sort of the odd man out at that board because my verbal abuse came from my doctor involved in LE while with most of the others there it came from their spouse. So, when I wrote about coercive persuasion, covert abuse, manipulation and LE tactics, my posts were usually met with silence. There was a little interest last week when I asked if anyone knew if this person was still involved in LE. Someone had replied that he had taken "weekend seminars" from April through October 2005, and told me it was a "big risk" to link his suicide with this organization. The initial interest in what LE does has faded, though many are still wondering why this man committed suicide. It didn't make sense. Some wondered if he had stopped his meds.

This has led me to wonder just how many people suffer psychotic breaks, worse depression or anxiety, and even commit suicide as a result of their participation with LE. They themselves might not put the two together, let alone people who don't understand what LE actually does to people.

This is probably the tip of the iceberg. LE is an abusive corporation who specializes in destabilizing the psyche of participants to instill new beliefs based on the "New Consciousness". This ideology is so insane, it will drive normal people crazy. Not to say that the pseudo-educators (leaders) have no professional training and they don't care about the mental breakdown they are responsible for. Actually, the LE leaders are completely irresponsible, and I strongly believe LE is a major cause of mental breakdown that can lead to suicide for people in emotional distress.

My first post (last year) was about an ILP participant who had committed suicide in Toronto in 2004, and my ex-lekkie girfriend (very addicted to LE) said without any emotions "He did not commit suicide because of Landmark .... THAT's HIS PROBLEM"! I was outraged and from that moment I made the commitment to fight against this deceptive organization and ideology as much as I can.

Any other testimonies anyone?

Anything that is intense and destabilizing can lead to emotional breakdown, I suppose. Any wonder why mental hospitals maintain bland, quiet, unperturbed environments ?

Paradox moment here. One might imagine that "those in need of help" on one level or another would be drawn to any organization that promises (however evasively, using carefully chosen non-specific, fudge factor smokescreen type language) things like TRANSFORMATION !, would, naturally, be seen as a salvation for unhappy, unbalanced, possibly unstable people.... in other words, needy people, people searching for anwers, people overwhelmed by the crap of life... and they are being offered something like therapy...... Nooooo Mister Billl ! Not Therapy ! COACHING !.... ok, "coaching", whatever the hell that is....

However, in the adult world of professional qualifications and professional certification, not that these petty concerns would slow down a juicy money making TRANSFORMATIVE COACHING corporation... no sireee... well, when real psychologists do their work, they have long initial interviews in order to generate a good diagnosis, and then a treatement plan, tailored to that individual, which, if the shrink has an ounce of competence, looks at childhood experiences, family dynamics, cultural frames, possible organic issues like head traumas, genetic dispositions....

Well, maybe these quick fix shoppes are promoting the idea, and carefully disguising the fact, even from their own conscious thinking, that they are in a position to substitute a commodified "philosophical" product for a couple of years of serious therapy.... "Your Life Doesn't Work!!!"... ??? You don't say ? And which population walks around thinking their life doesn't work ? Which population will be most profoundly hooked by this article of grand bloviation ? People who are OK ? People with stable, balanced lives ? Noooooo, duh, people with PROBLEMS.... who are being sold on the idea that they don't need therapy, they just need to GET OFF IT! (so get off it, asshole, what are you waiting for already ?)

C'mon, many people are severly depressed and only show minimal outward signs, they may seem a bit withdrawn or a little quizzical and be dying inside, and they need major therapy immediately, compassionate and concentrated work, appropriate medications, monitoring....

So let me ask you, how many of these "enlightened" trainers COULD, if their lives depended on it, identify a depressive personality and guage the real depth of their depression (and the degree of risk that implied) or a case of borderline personality disorder, or a bipolar in a state of hypomania (they are very enthusiastic, good attitude and everything, in the hypomanic state ! ) ????

Who has ever observed (I mean EVER) a case where a trainer stopped a training, or took a participant aside, NOT because of some overt acting out that was "disruptive", but because of some subtle cues about their mental state, and said, "listen, you'd be better served by seeing a good psychologist, why don't you go to the back of the room and get a full refund and apply that to you intake interview, good luck and feel better..." Ever ? Any takers ?

I would add that there are many people who would benefit from some psychotherapy or marriage & family counselling who are thrilled to hear that they DON'T need to submit to the humiliation, exposure, or possible stigma of that if they just go through one of these quickie "life-enhancement" or "self-improvement" seminars. Imagine these "problem personalities" being told that they are "perfectly OK just the way they are" and that if others complain, well, that's their problem. Sad to think they can come out with worse problems than those they thought were troubling them in the first place.

I'd love to know if any of these "trainers" has ever done what you suggest.



Ellen

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midonov123
My first post (last year) was about an ILP participant who had committed suicide in Toronto in 2004, and my ex-lekkie girfriend (very addicted to LE) said without any emotions "He did not commit suicide because of Landmark .... THAT's HIS PROBLEM"! I was outraged and from that moment I made the commitment to fight against this deceptive organization and ideology as much as I can.

Any other testimonies anyone?

Steven Pressman starts out his book with an account of a suicide. Landmarkers were happy to sweep this one under the rug by settling out of court and even reimbursed her husband for the courses she had paid for but didn't live to complete. The most telling thing from her story was the "list" of things she wanted to accomplish - some "homework" assignment or something - which were laughable in their grandiosity. I think Landmarkers prey on certain types who think or feel they aren't getting enough or are entitled to a better life than the one they got. They feed whatever narcissism someone arrives with and blow it into a full-on mania.


Ellen

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Hope
The initial interest in what LE does has faded, though many are still wondering why this man committed suicide. It didn't make sense. Some wondered if he had stopped his meds.

just to speak to the last statement.

as reported in the [i:f6934e9584]Wall Street Journal[/i:f6934e9584]:

Quote

The new analysis, which focused on 25 studies of nine drugs, found that children and teenagers who took the medicines were more likely to have behavior or thoughts that appeared suicidal, compared with those who got placebo pills.

(quote from here.)

the FDA have now added "black box" (the most serious) warnings to the labels of antidepressants. the FDA consider adolescents particularly at risk.

see more at this page on the FDA's own site.

"meds", could, of course, meant substances other than antidepressants.

while on the subject, while I like nutrino's posts as a rule, his portrayal of how psychologists (and mental institutions) work comes off to me based more on the ideal rather than the reality. I would really take this thread off-subject if I attempted to deconstruct his post line by line.

Ok.... ideals versus reality... there is one incontestible reality at work, the presence of the health insurance INDUSTRY which has financial imperatives of its own.... they show a marked preference for medications because medicating problems is cheaper than dialog based or multi-modal (dialog plus medication) therapy.... the fault here is economic, there is a strong incentive to contain costs by seeking the lowest cost therapy model.... in case you have experienced the difference between paying for your own medical care with your own money and using a HMO or similar health care provider service, you will notice astronomical differences in quality of care, which laboratories perform tests, which tests and confirming tests may be ordered, how much time a doctor will spend reviewing your case, which drugs will be prescribed for you, and other wonders of a massively dysfunctional health care system.

Sure, I'm speaking of high quality mental health care. Get stuck with the wrong HMO and you may have wretched care. I have friends who are lucky and have high quality multi modal interventions in spite of being around poverty level. Some of this is a function of geographic location, local politics, the specific disorder one suffers from...

And some of it is a function of persistance too... certain people will accept what they are told at face value, some will obtain multiple diagnoses and choose carefully who they will receive care from... which isn't a whole lot different than comparing surgeons or physicians or dentists....

And admittidedly, medicine is filled with lazy, stupid, greedy and incompetent actors as well, some are simple corrupt, like the workman's compensation scammers...

However, there does exist a layer of excellent, highly professional, thoroughly dedicated mental health practitioners who will take the time, invest the energy and insight to design a therapy plan, perhaps resort to medication when appropriate, and see the patient as a complex individual organism with a unique life history and unique therapeutic requirements, which also may grow and change as the patient grows and changes...

I firmly believe that the culture of medication, as it applies to ADHD and related disorders, is a large scale bureaucratic response to poorly understood cultural, dietary, endocrine, and family structure changes cause by overpopulation and massive technological shifts.... where the nation already spends about 15% of its Gross Domestic Product on health care, and would be economically crippled if this fraction shifted much higher... so there is a great political bias towards quick and dirty low cost solutions.... and honestly we don't know what the long term consequences of Ritilin kids will be when they reach midlife... but you must comprehend this as a politcal fix, we can't prosecute a war AND afford good health care (mental or otherwise) for large numbers, at the same time. We've voted for cheap energy and luxurious lifestyles and let health issues deteriorate.... and yes, we will absolutely pay a price for this in the long term...

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Acid Reindeer

Quote
Hope
The initial interest in what LE does has faded, though many are still wondering why this man committed suicide. It didn't make sense. Some wondered if he had stopped his meds.

just to speak to the last statement.

as reported in the [i:096bffea11]Wall Street Journal[/i:096bffea11]:

Quote

The new analysis, which focused on 25 studies of nine drugs, found that children and teenagers who took the medicines were more likely to have behavior or thoughts that appeared suicidal, compared with those who got placebo pills.

(quote from here.)

the FDA have now added "black box" (the most serious) warnings to the labels of antidepressants. the FDA consider adolescents particularly at risk.

see more at this page on the FDA's own site.

"meds", could, of course, meant substances other than antidepressants.

while on the subject, while I like nutrino's posts as a rule, his portrayal of how psychologists (and mental institutions) work comes off to me based more on the ideal rather than the reality. I would really take this thread off-subject if I attempted to deconstruct his post line by line.

There is absolutely NO comparison to be made!

Presciption drugs are given to patients when the benefits outweights the risks and there is a follow up by psychiatrists to make sure the results are positive. If the response is not as expected, the doctor will adjust the dosage or prescribe a different drug. This is medicine.

Landmark is in the business of DECEPTIVELY "breaking down the psyche" of "normal" people and "rebuilding it !!??" WITHOUT their consent (some may be depressive and vulnerable to psychological subjection). They don't care about the individual outcome as long as their mind virus keeps spreading!!! That in my opinion is a very risky business that has and will again lead to suicide cases. This is New Age cult endoctrination.

I really would like to discuss this in full, had we a general topics discussion area.

for the record, HMO's did not come into the picture as far as what I described. in those days they did not exist.

briefly, in the private mental institution where I had the misfortune to get incarcerated (the most prestigious in the country) "treatment plans" got made up in the following manner:

one of the staff members would write up a report of what went on during a shift. one particular staff member would have one inmate as his or her responsibility. that staff member plus a therapist who met with me once per week would advise a "treatment team" of administrative types which included the head psychiatrist of the ward.

the head psychiatrist of the ward and the other member of the team would see me, along with fifty other inmates, once or twice weekly for fifty minutes at a group meeting. none of them, bar the therapist, had ever talked to me at length. they had administrative functions, no time, not their job, they had a ward to run.

they made up their decisions based on words written on paper and from those once or twice weekly group meetings.

one of the psychiatrists, whose idea of why I feared and hated my brother came from some kind of neo-Freudian psychoanalytic theory rather than the fact that they towered over me and had regularly beat me up and abused me, up to and including spitting in my face, advised that I would benefit from one to two years in an institution to deal with my irrational feelings towards my brother.

I know this now, having had access ot my records. at the time, when I asked, "who dictates things? how does it work? how decides?" I got met with the cult-like answer, "you decide when you get let out."

I agree completely with your opinions in the last paragraph of your post.