How LEC recruiters kill their own empathy and ignore "No"
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 17, 2017 11:20PM

Here is how products of Werner Erhard's LGAT (Formerly est now Landmark)are trained.

This entire article is well worth reading.




Louisville's Liz Sumerlin first became aware of Landmark in 1991, after her then-fiancé enrolled in The Forum and began pressuring her and his family to sign up.

"The longer he stayed in it, the less I could talk to him," she recalls. "It was all psychobabble. We'd have a disagreement and he'd just dismiss anything he didn't want to hear by saying 'That's your story' or 'That's your racket.'"

"I found it strange that an organization that talks about how it's creating all these people who have empathy for their fellow man turns out all these people who don't want to communicate so that other people will understand them."

Sumerlin decided to find out everything she could about Landmark. A friend told her about a Wall Street Journal article, but when she tried to find it at the Denver Public Library, the microfiche had disappeared. However, a librarian there handed her a printout with a whole list of suggested reading, explaining that she had lost a relative to est.

"Apparently a lot of people were interested in the same thing I was," Sumerlin remembers. "I was really surprised by the amount of negative publicity."

She was also surprised by the nature of that publicity. "And what about Erhard?" she says, shaking her head. "They're always talking about how this will give you better, more loving relationships with people, but look at what a mess his family life was."

As her boyfriend got further into the organization, signing up for the leadership and self-expression program, Sumerlin agreed to attend an introductory course.

"They were just big sales pitches," she says. "We were whisked away into these back rooms where they try to get you to sign up. If you don't they want to know why. What's so great about your life that you don't want to improve it? Why do you have such a hard time committing to anything?"

"It's like shooting clay pigeons; there was always another question. They just try to wear you down."

At one point, Sumerlin tried to leave - but first she had to get past several hall monitors who kept up the questioning. "it was before I learned that the only way to handle these people is to just say no," she adds. "Anything else gives them an opening to ask another question. They're trained on how to do it."

In fact, she says, a former volunteer told her how they were taught to desensitize themselves to objections from potential recruits by singing "Old MacDonald Had a Farm" and substituting all the possible objections people might have for the verses: "I'm not signing up because…of money. Ee-I-Ee-I-O. I'm not signing up because…I don't want to. Ee-I-Ei-I-O."

Re: I've been made "complete"
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: September 17, 2017 11:26PM

Anyone curious about the history of Werner Erhard, the creator of the Forum and EST (Erhard Seminar Training), which became Landmark Education can click on the following link.

See []

Erhard, EST and Landmark has a long history of complaints, lawsuits, labor violations and bad press.

Basically the Forum seminar and other courses offered by Landmark is a device to download the composite philosophy of its founder Werner Erhard.

Much like religion, Erhard preached that his philosophy could save people and fix their problems. But his solution is faith based and has no scientifically measurable objective results. Instead Landmark offers subjective survey results based upon how people feel about the training.

Erhard largely relied upon copying others ideas rather than creating anything genuinely new. Erhard borrowed heavily the rather questionable ideas of Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard and controversial German philosopher Martin Heidegger.

Interestingly, Werner Erhard's philosophy apparently did not work that well for him.

See []

Werner Erhard's life is instead in large part a testimonial to the failure of his philosophy, at least as Erhard apparently applied it to his own life.

Re: I've been made "complete"
Posted by: goneinawhistle ()
Date: September 18, 2017 02:35AM

I was very sad to see an article by a well known UK celebrity in a national newspaper lauding the Landmark Forum just yesterday. The article contains a link to Landmark with no other information other than the celebrity describing how it changed his life:


Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2017 02:40AM by goneinawhistle.

Re: I've been made "complete"
Posted by: Throughmyeyes ()
Date: September 18, 2017 02:38PM

Thanks Corboy, I really appreciated your advice as much as it does hurt. I will look after myself though and if I ever did hear anything, I would suggest he seeks alternative help. I had suggested a conventional therapist before which I think was dismissed. Thank you again. It really has helped. Kind regards.

Re: I've been made "complete"
Posted by: Throughmyeyes ()
Date: September 18, 2017 03:18PM

Hello goneinawhistle,

Yes,that is quite worrisome that only yesterday that article was published. As far as I am concerned it is irresponsible of those in the public arena who are not formally qualified in psychology/psychiatry/counselling or any other therapeutically accredited/certified recognised related industry to be sprouting the accolades of a dangerous and damaging mind altering course. There is a reason our trained professionals spend years at university crafting their trade. The general public are impressionable and will not investigate for themselves.

My ex has completely pushed me away - as Corboy rightly mentioned - he ghosted me when he had said his piece and had enough. If it wasn't harmless - why the secretes? Why the word scramble to create groupthink and alienate those around them who do not partake. It certainly does not replicate the Maslow's Theory I learnt. A person should not "graduate" from a self help course. Growth is not one dimensional with an end point.

There is no peer reviewed study or scientifically backed paper that I can find that supports inducing fear, brainwashing and psychologically damaging techniques masquerading as "self-help". That alone should be a red flag to anyone.

Re: I've been made "complete"
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 19, 2017 03:11AM

Throughmyeyes wrote:


My ex has completely pushed me away - as Corboy rightly mentioned - he ghosted me when he had said his piece and had enough.

He might exploit this by returning. A lot of the time when someone we love
goes AWOL on us with no explanation, we are so crazed with gratitude when they return that we will swallow any bullshitology they throw our way.

Long ago, I had two very dear friends who did a sort of semi-ghosting number. They'd suddenly stop returning phone calls. Period.

Mattered a lot in those days because the only other communication option was snail mail. If someone suddenly stopped returning phone calls, it was a huge deal.

In each case, I'd run scared. Was he dead in a ditch somewhere? In the hospital because of a heart attack or been gaybashed?

Had I done something wrong?!!

Those were the days when you'd camp by the telephone in case you missed a call.

In each case, X would show up, fresh as a daisy, cheery, healthy, ambulatory, all limbs intact.

I'd be so relieved I'd not be angry, just glad to have them back.

It took several repeats of this shit before I understood that ghosting and semi-ghosting is crazy-making, period.

Re: I've been made "complete"
Posted by: Throughmyeyes ()
Date: September 19, 2017 03:48AM

Thanks Corboy,

I do keep playing different scenarios around on my head about what I must have done wrong but its getting better thanks to everyone here.

Another tricky thing is when people ask me what happened and I say "oh he joined a cult" they look at me like What!! People don't understand how evil these things are.

It's all starting to make more sense to me though as after his sessions in June and July he would ask me about my "why" question me on certain things, critique my body language as if kinetics was a brand new way to assess the works and tell me how some people "get it" and some don't. When he was insisting I tell him my purpose in July I would t partake as I wasn't functioning very well due to sleep deprivation from stress and anxiety I was going through at the time. He knew about it but failed to even acknowledge it. I hadn't seen or heard from my children in ten days due to them being out of range on holidays and they had been due home two days prior from access with their dad, You don't ask someone on the brink of an extremely emotionally taxing time what their purpose is when all they need is a hug! It was about ten minutes later that he flew into an extremely irrational rage towards me and he kicked me out of the house. It all went downhill from there really. This was not his normal behaviour. To say I was shocked, confused and unbelievably hurt would be an understatement. He wouldn't answer/return my calls or text messages for two days. On retrospect it was pretty abusuve behaviour towards me that I couldn't see initially as at the time I was becoming increasingly confused and couldn't make sense of what was happening to us.

Re: I've been made "complete"
Posted by: Throughmyeyes ()
Date: September 19, 2017 04:09AM

Thanks rrmoderator for the very informative albeit frightening link. It is mind boggling to think people fall for this. They must be either very lost or narcissistic - and yet once they do the course they become both with the added sociopathic traits and mental disharmony. All on the name of self/expression from n abusive used car sales man! Lost for words really.

Thank you for establishing this site and for helping people like myself.

Re: I've been made "complete"
Posted by: Throughmyeyes ()
Date: September 21, 2017 10:39PM

I have to keep reading these to remind myself I didn't do anything wrong.

Re: I've been made "complete"
Posted by: GloriaG ()
Date: October 04, 2017 12:47PM

goneinawhistle Wrote:
> I was very sad to see an article by a well known
> UK celebrity in a national newspaper lauding the
> Landmark Forum just yesterday. The article
> contains a link to Landmark with no other
> information other than the celebrity describing
> how it changed his life:
> []

Its been 7 years since I discovered this forum which saved my sanity over my own Landmark Experiences.

However, to say that this UK comedian is lauding the Forum is, in my opinion, over stating the short reference in a personal story about his relationship with his father.

Landmark are very cunning in that they use some techniques which do work. For example the one referenced in the article which involves phoning someone and apologising for some misunderstanding or wrong doing on your own behalf.

When techniques like this work, the participant starts to trust and believe in LE but this advice could have come from anywhere. However, unfortunately the participant gives LE all the credit which is why I believe it is being referenced here. He does go on to say that his mother thought it was a cult. And that both parents refused to attend.

However, I can see that reading a reference to it, plus a link might seem like an endorsement by the newspaper.

The other reason I came here to post a response is because I actually credit this same comedian for saving my 'life' - mentally. I shan't repeat my whole story which I've already posted here but I got as far as the first weekend of SELP.

That final weekend session was the most manipulative and traumatic for me and I awoke from a nightmare on Sunday morning terrified and I never went back. And for a while, I felt relieved and happy that my inner self had helped me escape. But then a deep depression set in.

Two months later and still depressed I was watching a TV comedy show, written by this same comedian which also referred to his experiences of doing the Forum. I felt a positive electric jolt run through me. I was alive, switched on again. And this alarmed me because I was also aware that I now thought LE a dark, dangerous organisation.

So I went online and googled, Landmark danger depression and found all the helpful advice shared here. If LE weren't so litigious I would have written an article, and sent it to this same newspaper, with the headline that his comedian saved my life. I certainly credit him with that because I might not have discovered this place otherwise.

In support of Throughmyeyes, all I can add is that it is during the SELP part of the course that they really get into a person's psyche to control them. They plant seeds of that in the Advanced Course and then ratchet up the pressure at the start of SELP by arranging weekly (? might have been more than weekly) phonecalls with Landmark appointed small group leader. What I mean is that they divide all the participants into small groups of 6 and introduce a new person who has 'completed the programme' to manage the group. And we were supposed to have these regular calls with this person. So now they have a greater control over your life.

I never experienced these calls but that is one of the reasons I quit after 1 day of SELP.

I hope this also helps you understand why you lost your friend so completely. I hope you can find a way to heal from this terrible hurt.

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.