Re: Landmark Confusion - seeking support
Posted by: bakkagirl ()
Date: June 10, 2018 08:44AM


I have gone back and reviewed corboy's post. I recall a lot of research being done at my graduate school regarding amygdala hijack. I need to think more about this, and what I have experienced and observed in a couple of workplaces (consulting firms), and, in the context of coach 'training'.

Your comment about potentially being targeted because you are 'stoic', non-reactive, really left off the page.

I would be described that way, too. Am often called a female "Spock"...I don't react...which seems to drive them to new levels of confrontation and abuse.

One thing I haven't shared in this forum is that I have been gang stalked by members of the ICF,...drunk called late a night, harassed, etc.

Re: Landmark Confusion - seeking support
Posted by: kdag ()
Date: June 10, 2018 09:23AM

i feel your pain. I have also experienced significant harassment.

Re: Landmark Confusion - seeking support
Posted by: bakkagirl ()
Date: June 10, 2018 01:51PM


I contacted this forum after a close encounter with the cult. Someone I had formerly trusted, been trained by in another context, was offering ICF accreditation training. I figured, maybe they had changed, were bringing in 'reputable' people.

As usual, the training itself made no sense to me, was highly programmatic, did not speak to actual coaching practice of HUMANS by HUMANS. And, no evident research base.

So, I am probing and probing, just trying to understand why I am being instructed to do something in a particular way. This person quoted Carl Rogers...something to do with "holding unconditional positive regard for clients" is a very recognizable quote, thought I did not think the Japanese participants would understand the attribution.

I just said, "That is Carl Rogers, right?" The response was, "I don't know what you are talking about!"...

Of course she knew what I was talking about...just wanted to trip my amygdala. I have seen a lot of this.

Re: Landmark Confusion - seeking support
Posted by: kdag ()
Date: June 10, 2018 02:23PM


Yes, that. Amygdala hijack, and in some that might instill self-doubt, which is another of their biggies.

Corboy also pointed out how they try to disorient by removing as many reference points as they possibly can. People connect to things that are already in their brain, and they disrupt that. I think corboy's example was in the thread about the room set-up. In Landmark, after you go on meal breaks, you can't return to the same seat that you were in before. If you leave your water bottle or a pen, they will move it. It keeps you from feeling anchored. This part about the Carl Rogers quote sounds like it would do double duty in that regard, as well.

Anything to keep eveyone off-balance.
They just seem to pile on layers and layers of junk, removing all traces of anything that would be an aid in making sense of it. I think they just want to get everyone so confused that they can just take their hand and lead them anywhere.

Re: Landmark Confusion - seeking support
Posted by: bakkagirl ()
Date: June 10, 2018 03:01PM

Yes, yes, the facilitator's behavior -- this is an I.O. Psychologist was calculated to undermine my sense of self, my confidence in my knowledge of the field, my experience.

She had sent me an inaccurate map to the venue, and I arrived a few minutes late. She made no effort to introduce me to the group (unthinkable in Japan). She jumped on me every time I asked a question. She had not brought enough supplies to do one of her 'exercises'. I agreed to take the incomplete 'kit', and I was making do, being creative, using post-its to devise and alternative 'field'. I was ridiculed for this. During a break, she described the death of her dog. I said I had lost all of my pets in the 3/11 quake -- ZERO EMPATHY. She also inferred that I would going to refuse to pay my fee at the end of the session.

During a break, I had also expressed concern to her about practices of the ICF in Japan and China. She denied that any of these things were happening.

Most disturbingly, this person who is has a very BIG PROFILE in the coaching world, did much of the primary research, praised endlessly the ICF methodology (which is complete CRAP).

It was like listening to a neurosurgeon describe the wonders of a home first aid kit...oooh, look at the gauze, look at the sissors. There was also the name dropping, ICF personnel. And, the announcement of her new 'save the world' project, which, upon investigation, approximated exactly what is described on Werner Erhard's site, vis a vis global leadership development.


Re: Landmark Confusion - seeking support
Posted by: bakkagirl ()
Date: June 10, 2018 03:05PM

Apologize for the typos...this stuff really upsets me.

Re: Landmark Confusion - seeking support
Posted by: bakkagirl ()
Date: June 10, 2018 03:27PM

One other would be one thing if they were calling what they are doing Landmark, or est, but they are cloaking it under another brand. I have participated in other coach training programs, and they are focused on COACHING...this stuff is not. Most of it is about how to 'game' a test, what are the key phrases one is to to get points with the evaluator.

I have a list of these phrases, will check it for parallels to Landmark concepts.

Bet I will find them.

Further Information abt LGATs frm CEI Message Board
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: June 10, 2018 10:20PM

nominalization (Use of grammatical violations to induce thought
stopping and confusion in targets)
Posted by: corboy
Date: April 21, 2014 07:16AM


Landmark Forum vocabulary
Posted by: MercurialMere
Date: January 24, 2007 01:27PM


Posted by: yutolia
Date: May 15, 2008 08:39AM


Landmark jargon -- from Wikiversity


Why use of jargon can distort our thinking and cut off access to our emotions and inner life.


Werner Erhard Family Tree (This three page thread includes the description of Werner Erhard's library. On the third page of the discussion, Corboy wonders whether Erhard was influenced by reading SI Hayakawa's book, Language in Action.


Listing of LGATs and their founders
Posted by: S_Byers666
Date: February 20, 2007 09:53AM


Landmark say's it's redesigning itself.
Posted by: Zorro .
Date: May 26, 2009 07:10PM


Insights from 'Marcos' who was very heavily involved with Harmony, an LGAT spin off from est/Landmark


One Landmark subject describes getting mindfucked.


Re: Further Information abt LGATs frm CEI Message Board
Posted by: bakkagirl ()
Date: June 11, 2018 08:11AM


Let's reframe est/Landmark as a more fluid entity with operatives working in many other entities.

In 2009, my platinum consulting firm, 28 branches worldwide, sent me to Shanghai for 'coach training', with the, then, most platinum coach in the world.

In attendance: me, a non-psychologist, and about 25 psychologists flown in from all over the world. I was a bit nervous, as you can imagine.

About two hours into the first day, I was summoned to take an "emergency call" from Tokyo. (I thought someone must have died.)

It was my boss demanding that I tell her the first and last name of everyone at the seminar and the seating chart...who was sitting where. When I could not do this, I had just met 25 strangers, she exploded in anger, called me stupid, introverted, autistic. This drill was repeated every day for a week, with the demands changing but remaining impossible.

Same thing was done to new employees of the consulting firm. They would receive detailed email in the middle of the night (JST) and, a demand that all matters be accomplished NOW.

I can tell you that one of these operatives is now inside Google, and has designed that 'cult'ure'.

I think we have to consider 'Landmark' to be a larger entity, with many different names...

Re: Landmark Confusion - seeking support
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: June 11, 2018 09:55PM

.-a boss sending midnight messages, and verbally abusing employees in the manner you describe:

That is a set up for sleep deprivation and stress, right there. If you are already jet lagged this is seriously abusive.

And if your boss did not tell you beforehand that she wanted you to ID who was sitting where and be able to get that information to her by a certain time -
this demand on you was, in Corboy's (First Amendment protected) opinion --this demand on you was a mindfuck.

Unless your boss was herself being mindfucked by someone higher in the food chain.

Or your boss was simply a very disorganized freaked out person.

BTW, just in case this is illuminating,here is a description by a Landmark survivor (Hossgal) of how she and others were
set up for failure by their Forum Leader.


The term for this kind of abuse is gaslighting.


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